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It Shall Be An Everlasting Covenant With Them

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You are trying to prove your interpretation of Scripture by information that is not in Scripture.

The accurate historical evidence of the Commandment/Decree of Artaxerxes concerning the rebuilding of the WALL of Jerusalem

has been known since the 19th Century.  But when you impose "Replacement Theology" on scripture, then such facts are irrelevant.

 

Ezra and Nehemiah are devoted to this time period.  However, force-fitting a Replacement Theology "template" on doctrine, of necessity,

 requires the force-fitting of scripture in order to establish the Replacement Theology.

Thus, the Replacement Theology "template" requires the adaptation of preterism, symbolism and allegory on Scripture, as well as "dismisal" of any contradictory historical evidence, in order to hold onto Replacement Theology

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The accurate historical evidence of the Commandment/Decree of Artaxerxes concerning the rebuilding of the WALL of Jerusalem

has been known since the 19th Century.  But when you impose "Replacement Theology" on scripture, then such facts are irrelevant.

 

Ezra and Nehemiah are devoted to this time period.  However, force-fitting a Replacement Theology "template" on doctrine, of necessity,

 requires the force-fitting of scripture in order to establish the Replacement Theology.

Thus, the Replacement Theology "template" requires the adaptation of preterism, symbolism and allegory on Scripture, as well as "dismisal" of any contradictory historical evidence, in order to hold onto Replacement Theology

Ah - now I understand - you rely on 19th C modern scholarship to prove or disprove the words of Scripture. I know Ezra & Nehemiah, Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi are post exilic books, but they do not establish a precise date for either the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, nor the date of Jesus' life events. Daniel's prophecies cover the inter-testamental years in such detail that modernist scholars accuse him of writing AFTER the events.

 

Is there ANYTHING in my posts that justifies your attack:

 

Thus, the Replacement Theology "template" requires the adaptation of preterism, symbolism and allegory on Scripture, as well as "dismisal" of any contradictory historical evidence, in order to hold onto Replacement Theology

Give SPECIFIC examples, as otherwise it is clear you are just using empty words to attack me & build your straw house. You are just using "replacement theology" as an expletive to reject what I write - even though I do not teach RT.

 

As far as accepted historical evidence is concerned, Jerusalem was besieged by the Romans, withdrew briefly allowing the Christians to escape the city according to the Olivet prophecy & warnings, 3 1/2 years before the destruction, & about 40 years after the crucifixion, the temple was burned & dismantled stone by stone, again according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy, & the Jews & other defenders were killed, enslaved or scattered. Also, according to Jesus' command & Olivet prophecy, the Gospel went out into all the world - Scripture records the Roman empire, the Mediterranean region, Ethiopia, Babylon, without mentioning the activities of most of the Apostles.

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But the Lord spoke of a future event...not one from the past. 

 

Yes, but I was answering this statement- "There is no historical evidence that such an event as a "abomination of desolation" ever took place".

 

When I said this I was in no wise meaning that this was what Jesus was referring to.

Just having fun with a history fact.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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Uh, why can't people who disagree with Covenanter, (and myself), use the phrase Covenant Theology, instead of the aggravating terminology Replacement Theology?

It truly seems that irritation is the end result of someone 'running out of patience'.

I do it too. We are human.

Maybe we could try to do better?

Maybe knowing what a person would 'rather' hear, in a Christian adult conversation,

as a title for what they 'believe', and using that title, would 'produce' fellowship, instead of 'violent' division.

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The map is from Ezekiel 47, the "Millennial" map.  Note the "tribes" are parallel (unlike O.T. times).

We can expect these borders PRIOR to the Tribulation (OBviously "enlarged" by another Arab-Israeli war).

where did you find this map you're showing.it appears to be much smaller an it doesn't seem to fit with the math given by God to Ezekiel it looks more like Israel today then the future Millennial Kingdom

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Yes, some of Josephus is interesting but it's not totally accurate and it's not Scripture. We can't claim the Bible says or doesn't say something based upon what some man has written. When determining what the Bible says, or doesn't say, we must compare Scripture with Scripture.

 

I love history and I love reading historical and biographical books, but we have to be careful not to make claims regarding biblical matters based upon any works of men.

 

Of course it is not in scripture, John.  It is "church" history, though.  It is an interesting read, especially for me, a former RC.  It should be noted that Josephus was the "Jewish Benedict Arnold" too.  There is nothing wrong with studying outside sources, especially where eschatology is involved, as long as one puts the Bible first. 

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Your "OBvious prOBlems with a millennial fulfilment" are that the Millennium is specified as a 1,000 year period,

not some "approximately 2,000 year period", or "some indefinite period of time in excess of 1,900 years".

 

"Palestinian Covenant" to Israel (pure genetic Hebrews):

Deuteronomy 30

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath driven thee,

2 And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt OBey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;

3 That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

6 And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

 

Jeremiah 23:7-8

7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

 

8 But, The Lord liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

 

Ezekiel 37:21-25

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen [Gentiles], whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and OBserve my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto JacOB my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

 

The 1,000 year Millennium is the final dispensation before entering eternity.  It is a dispensation where mortal man - even under

the very best of (Edenic) circumstances - still fails to overcome his a sin-nature, thus proving that man needs a Savior from sin.

 

Psalm 2:6-8

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me,

Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,
and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
 

 

 

 

 

I think you are missing something, It was not too many years after Jeremiah and Ezekiel wrote that, that God called them to return to the land under the rule of Cyrus.

 

 
Exra 1:1 ¶  Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
2  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3  Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4  And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 ¶  Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
 
Edited by Invicta

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Continuing.  After telling how Cyrus would set the people free without price, God says through Isaiah,

 

Isaiah.45:19  I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of JacOB, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20 ¶  Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21  Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

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I can't help but wonder why some hold to very dogmatic, as they say, literal, interpretation of the millennium being exactly 1,000 years, yet when it comes to the 70 weeks they take another view claiming the 70 weeks actually means 69 weeks to be followed by an untold countless number of weeks that don't count as weeks which will then be followed by a week that will be counted as the 70th week. This is very inconsistent.

 

Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 
Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 
Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 
Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 
There you go John - there is a definite division here - the 70 weeks are divided into 7 weeks, threescore and two (62) weeks, and a single week.
 
Note then that it is AFTER the threescore and two weeks that Messiah is cut off. So we have the 7 weeks, then the 62 weeks, and at the completion of those 69 weeks total the Messiah is cut off.
Therefore the 69 weeks ends with the death of Christ.
After the death of Christ - the word "and" ("and the people...." onwards) does not carry with it any inherent time period, just sometime after - the city will be destroyed and the sanctuary, then it speaks the people of the prince coming, then of the end, which involves a flood and a war of desolations. And there will be a covenant of 1 more week - in the context, this is clearly the 70th week.
During this week there will be a covenant made - the interesting thing is that in the "midst of the seventieth week" the sacrifice and OBlation will cease".
 
The order of these things is clearly set out - the missing data is the timing of these things.
 
7 weeks, 62 weeks, the Messiah is cut off, the people of the prince come, then the end, with flood and war of desolations,then a covenant is made, then in the midst of the covenant the sacrifice and OBlation cease.
 
Somewhere in there you have to fit the cutting off of the Messiah, the people of the prince coming, a flood and a war of desolations, all before the 1 week of the covenant.
 
There is a hole in the weeks where this stuff happens.
 
And then in the middle of that final week the sacrifice and OBlation cease.
 
This is what Daniel 9:24 - 27 states with no outside reference at all, and with no historical alignment to force anything.
 
The gap is implied by the events that happen after the 69th week, but before the 1 week.

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Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thes 2:3-4  Written by Paul in 54 A.D.

 

This is the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel the Prophet.

From the Commandment of Artaxerxes until the Triumphal Entry (of Jesus into Jerusalem) is EXACTLY "69 Weeks" (of years) or 483 years, to the very day!

So, you have a 7 year period (ie: "Week") for the Antichrist to appear and then to present himself as God in the Temple of God.  This remains unfulfilled.

 

Wasn't it you who suggested starting at Josephus?  

 

Well Josephus said that Cyrus' command included the building of the city.  The city was built as under Nehemiah they were living in houses.  God said by Isaiah, that Cyrus would order the building of the city.  Are you calling God a liar?

 

Is 45:13  I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

 

Scripture chronology gives 69 weeks from Cyrus to Messiah the Prince, when Jesus was baptized.  Secular chronology which you used is based on the teaching of Claudius Ptolemaus, a pagan astrologer and astronomer.  

 

The astronomer Ptolemy of Alexandria, who lived in the second century CE (or AD, used the system of regnal years and has handed down to us an important list of kings. It is called the Canon and has been preserved in several astronomical texts by later authors, which usually continue the list up to their own time. Because they were only interested in dating astronomical phenomena, kings who died during a certain year were usually allowed to give their name to the entire year, and the next ruler is supposed to have ascended to the Babylonian throne on the first day of the new year. (Kings who reigned for less than one year are ignored.)

This brief document, which is based on astronomical information from ancientBabylon,  is still the backbone of the chronology of the ancient Near East. Its essential correctness has been corrOBorated by the Uruk King List, theAstronomical Diaries, and Egyptian data (like dated papyri). Here are the forty-three first names of Ptolemy's list (different colors indicate the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Macedonian, and Ptolemaic kings):

 

Ptolemy also wrote an astronomical work in which he introduced the teaching that the sun circled the earth.

 

If you carefully study Ezra and Nehemiah, you will see that there cannot be the long period between Cyrus and Artaxerxes and Alexander.  1st Clue: Nehemiah was one of the leading Jews who returned with Zerubabbal

 Ezra.1:2  Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:

 

2nd clue, Most of the leaders who returned with Nehemiah also signed with Nehemiah, supposedly 80 or more years later.  ( as the leaders they were prOBably over 30)

 

3rd Clue.  Exra sometimes uses other names for the  Persian kings than the name we know them by,  

 

The Artaxerxes who gave permission for the walls to be repaired, (The second Artaxerxes that Ezra mentions) was most prOBably the king we know as Darius 1st, as opposed to Darius the Mede in Daniel.

 

Then we have timing for Dan's 70 weeks.  7 weeks of troubled times from Cyrus to 31st Year of Darius, aka Artaxerxes. 62 Weeks till the baptism of Jesus. 1 Week, the most momentous week in History, when the Maker of this world took my sins to Calvary, In the midst of the week, the prophetic week and also the literal week.  As Ian said Jesus dealt with the Jews for that week, and called the gentiles at the end of that week.  

 
 

 

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I am well aware of Replacement Theology's Preterism where all prophecies concerning Israre are considered to be totally and 100% fulfilled.

It is inherited from 4th Century Catholicism.

Edited by beameup

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I think you are missing something, It was not too many years after Jeremiah and Ezekiel wrote that, that God called them to return to the land under the rule of Cyrus.

 

 
Exra 1:1 ¶  Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,
2  Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.
3  Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4  And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 ¶  Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
 

 

I am well aware of Replacement Theology's Preterism where all prophecies concerning Israre are considered to be totally and 100% fulfilled.

It is inherited from 4th Century Catholicism.

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Continuing.  After telling how Cyrus would set the people free without price, God says through Isaiah,

 

Isaiah.45:19  I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of JacOB, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20 ¶  Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21  Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

 

I am well aware of Replacement Theology's Preterism where all prophecies concerning Israre are considered to be totally and 100% fulfilled.

It is inherited from 4th Century Catholicism.

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I am well aware of Replacement Theology's Preterism where all prophecies concerning Israre are considered to be totally and 100% fulfilled.

It is inherited from 4th Century Catholicism.

 

And I repeat, source of info? There has to be some. Where do you get that this is Replacement Theology from the 4th Century?

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Thanks, Dave, for a detailed Scriptural reply.

 

Dan 9:24  Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 
Dan 9:25  Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 
Dan 9:26  And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 
Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the OBlation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 
There you go John - there is a definite division here - the 70 weeks are divided into 7 weeks, threescore and two (62) weeks, and a single week.
 
Note then that it is AFTER the threescore and two weeks that Messiah is cut off. So we have the 7 weeks, then the 62 weeks, and at the completion of those 69 weeks total the Messiah is cut off.
Therefore the 69 weeks ends with the death of Christ.
Unless the "after" means during the following - 70th week. It is not definite whether the 69th week takes us to Jesus' baptism & anointing (which I believe) thus placing his death & resurrection that accomplishes the saving work prophesied in v. 24 during that final week. 
 
Or his triumphal entry, immediately followed by his death & resurrection, which I think is the futurist understanding - that leaves the 70th week yet future.   
 
After the death of Christ - the word "and" ("and the people...." onwards) does not carry with it any inherent time period, just sometime after - the city will be destroyed and the sanctuary, then it speaks the people of the prince coming, then of the end, which involves a flood and a war of desolations.
That is a prophecy of the AD 70 destruction, that Jesus predicts when he leaves the temple, before his Olivet prophecy.
 
And there will be a covenant of 1 more week - in the context, this is clearly the 70th week. Agreed.
During this week there will be a covenant made - the interesting thing is that in the "midst of the seventieth week" the sacrifice and OBlation will cease".
If the 70 weks are a consecutive 490 years, the cross effectively ends "sacrifice & OBlation" after 3 1/2 years of Jesus' ministry. It leaves a further 3 1/2 years for the Apostolic Gospel to confirm the covenant. I don't see a false covenant here, Gabriel speaks of THE covenant. During those early years of the Gospel, Peter declares:

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
When the Jewish leaders rejected the covenant, all that remained was the prophesied judgement:
for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
 
The order of these things is clearly set out - the missing data is the timing of these things.
No missing data, if the 70 weeks are continuous. The key point is after threescore and two weeks which means that the events of Jesus' life & death & resurrection, the Apostolic Gospel, and the rejection of the Gospel are understood as occurring DURING the 70th week, are all recorded in Scripture. All that remains after the 70th week is the consequence of that rejection - the desolation, which God graciously delays for 40 years. ( Heb. 3:7-12 ) 
 
7 weeks, 62 weeks, the Messiah is cut off, the people of the prince come, then the end, with flood and war of desolations,then a covenant is made, then in the midst of the covenant the sacrifice and OBlation cease.
No - the serious error is that there is NO new (false) covenant - he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. 
 
Somewhere in there you have to fit the cutting off of the Messiah, the people of the prince coming, a flood and a war of desolations, all before the 1 week of the covenant.
I think I have covered that - read carefully what I have written, & re-read Daniel 9, and e.g. Luke 21.
 
There is a hole in the weeks where this stuff happens. No, it's continuous.
 
And then in the middle of that final week the sacrifice and OBlation cease. It did, effectively at Calvary, in the midst of the week, and finally when the temple was destroyed. It has ceased, long ago.
 
This is what Daniel 9:24 - 27 states with no outside reference at all, and with no historical alignment to force anything.
I can claim the same, without positing a gap. An invading army comes like a flood. You have left questions as to the future identity of the people of the prince the nature of the covenant to be confirmed, & renewed sacrifices & OBlations.
The gap is implied by the events that happen after the 69th week, but before the 1 week.

No gap is needed for a clear understanding.

 

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Thanks, Dave, for a detailed Scriptural reply.

 

 

But look at the order - 7 weeks, 62 weeks, events happen, then 70 week starts.

 

It is there plain and simple.

 

Messiah is cut off, then a bunch of things happen, then the covenant is "confirmed" THEN the sacrifice and OBlation cease in the midst of the 70th week.

The order of events is stated clearly and plainly.

 

You can not force the Messiah being cut off and the Sacrifice and OBlation ceasing into the same event - the language will not allow it.

 

And anyway - the sacrifice and OBlation did not cease at the death of Messiah. The Jews continued it until the destruction of the temple.

Note that it does not say that they would cease to be effective - it says the actual sacrifice and the OBlation themselves would cease.

 

 

 

I read the passage itself with no regard to any eschatological viewpoint - I examined it and set it out according to what the passage itself says.

 

It doesn't say the time period was ten days, ten years, or a thousand years, or ten thousand years, or any defined period of time - it just has to be enough time for the events to happen in the order they are stated.

 

Messiah is cut off; People of the prince come and destroy the city and the Sanctuary; the end (and it doesn't specify the end of what) comes with a flood; there is a war; a covenant is confirmed (not made, as you rightly pointed out) for one week (indicating the start of the final week of that covenant, not even that the duration of the covenant is one week); and then after all of that in the midst of that final week - which started with the confirmation of the covenant according to the order and language used, the sacrifice and OBlation cease.

 

This is the order of events, according to the plain and simple reading of the passage.

 

One error that you make is to force the Messiah being cut off, and the ceasing of the sacrifice and OBlation into the same event. The passage does not allow that.

And it is not necessary anyway - the sacrifice and OBlation continued in practice (not effectiveness) until the Temple was destroyed.

 

 

 

But we have been on this roundabout before.

 

You have stated your view, I have stated mine, how about we leave it there for later readers to examine and decide?

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We still don't know the exact date of Jesus' birth, baptism/anointing & death/resurection, nor his triumphal entry. We can accept the accuracy of Daniel 9 - it's Scripture - but not identify the exact year.

 

Of course the first century Jews knew Jesus' prophecy was future - they heard his words as reported by the Apostles - and he introduced his Olivet prophecy by announcing the total destruction of the temple & Jerusalem. Paul told the Thessalonians  the destruction had to happen before the coming of Christ for resurrection & judgement. 2 The. 2:1-12  The details of the destruction, timings, antichristian persons, etc, are not recorded in Scripture, but they had enough information to take action & flee the city.

 

You are trying to prove your interpretation of Scripture by information that is not in Scripture.

We??? Speak for yourself. 

The only "decree" that counts in Daniel's prophecy is the "decree" of Artaxerxes - and his reign is historically well established.

The truth is, is that the Replacement Theology folks don't want to know for certainty when the Triumphal Entry occurred,

as it would "mess up" their theology.  It is pride and a long tradition that prevents them from finding the facts.

 

The "Reformers" lost the structure and power of the Pope and the "Holy" Catholic Church in exchange for the Bible in the "common tongue". 

Unfortunately a large portion of Catholic Theology, they retained.  Especially noteworthy is the Protestant/Catholic Doctrines of Replacement Theology (where "the Church" replaces Israel).

They reject any future role of Israel and make us to believe that we already are in "the Millennium" and Christ is "ruling from his Throne" in heaven.

 

Replacement Theology - the Church has replaced Israel because Israel rejected the Messiah

Preterism - all prophecies have already been fulfilled and we are in the Millennium (ie: the Church).

"Symbolization" of any Scripture that doesn't conform to their pre-conceived replacement theology and/or

"Allegorization" of  any Scripture that doesn't conform to their pre-conceived replacement theology

 

Today, the Catholic Church will provide you with a Bible in your "native tongue" and even encourage you to read it.

Many Protestants are "attracted" to 4th Century Catholic Theology, especially their fuzzy escatology...

it's a "sign of the times".

Edited by beameup

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We??? Speak for yourself. 

The only "decree" that counts in Daniel's prophecy is the "decree" of Artaxerxes - and his reign is historically well established.

The truth is, is that the Replacement Theology folks don't want to know for certainty when the Triumphal Entry occurred,

as it would "mess up" their theology.  It is pride and a long tradition that prevents them from finding the facts.

 

The "Reformers" lost the structure and power of the Pope and the "Holy" Catholic Church in exchange for the Bible in the "common tongue". 

Unfortunately a large portion of Catholic Theology, they retained.  Especially noteworthy is the Protestant/Catholic Doctrines of Replacement Theology (where "the Church" replaces Israel).

They reject any future role of Israel and make us to believe that we already are in "the Millennium" and Christ is "ruling from his Throne" in heaven.

 

Replacement Theology - the Church has replaced Israel because Israel rejected the Messiah

Preterism - all prophecies have already been fulfilled and we are in the Millennium (ie: the Church).

"Symbolization" of any Scripture that doesn't conform to their pre-conceived replacement theology and/or

"Allegorization" of  any Scripture that doesn't conform to their pre-conceived replacement theology

 

Today, the Catholic Church will provide you with a Bible in your "native tongue" and even encourage you to read it.

Many Protestants are "attracted" to 4th Century Catholic Theology, especially their fuzzy escatology...

it's a "sign of the times".

 

Take this a little personal - you kinda creep me out with your using of this type of

phraseology, slamming people, and saying anything that will 'hurt' them.

 

You lack tact. And if I were you, I would stand back and calculate the value of what your purpose is here.

Is your purpose to speak to edify? Or is it to prove yourself of more value because you 'know' more than others?

 

It appears the latter is your issue. Not just to me, but to others on this forum.

When 'doctrine' becomes 'violent', it should be questioned, on both sides.

I know I get frustrated sometimes here when people like yourself, whom I disagree with, 'will not listen to facts' (my thought).

So I know we can 'vent' and look ignorant sometimes.

 

You are looking that way now.

But then again, that is just my opinion.

 

Please notice the question in post #41.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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But look at the order - 7 weeks, 62 weeks, events happen, then 70 week starts.

 

It is there plain and simple.

 

Messiah is cut off, then a bunch of things happen, then the covenant is "confirmed" THEN the sacrifice and OBlation cease in the midst of the 70th week.

The order of events is stated clearly and plainly.

 

You can not force the Messiah being cut off and the Sacrifice and OBlation ceasing into the same event - the language will not allow it.

 

And anyway - the sacrifice and OBlation did not cease at the death of Messiah. The Jews continued it until the destruction of the temple.

Note that it does not say that they would cease to be effective - it says the actual sacrifice and the OBlation themselves would cease.

 

 

 

I read the passage itself with no regard to any eschatological viewpoint - I examined it and set it out according to what the passage itself says.

 

It doesn't say the time period was ten days, ten years, or a thousand years, or ten thousand years, or any defined period of time - it just has to be enough time for the events to happen in the order they are stated.

 

Messiah is cut off; People of the prince come and destroy the city and the Sanctuary; the end (and it doesn't specify the end of what) comes with a flood; there is a war; a covenant is confirmed (not made, as you rightly pointed out) for one week (indicating the start of the final week of that covenant, not even that the duration of the covenant is one week); and then after all of that in the midst of that final week - which started with the confirmation of the covenant according to the order and language used, the sacrifice and OBlation cease.

 

This is the order of events, according to the plain and simple reading of the passage.

 

One error that you make is to force the Messiah being cut off, and the ceasing of the sacrifice and OBlation into the same event. The passage does not allow that.

And it is not necessary anyway - the sacrifice and OBlation continued in practice (not effectiveness) until the Temple was destroyed.

 

 

 

But we have been on this roundabout before.

 

You have stated your view, I have stated mine, how about we leave it there for later readers to examine and decide?

 

Neither my view or your view matter much, what matters is the scripture.  

 

Jesus confirmed the covenant with the circumcision.

 

Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
 
What could those promises be but the covenant.  After that, the sacrifice ceased, then the temple was destroyed, and Zion was ploughed like a field.

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We??? Speak for yourself. 

The only "decree" that counts in Daniel's prophecy is the "decree" of Artaxerxes - and his reign is historically well established.

The truth is, is that the Replacement Theology folks don't want to know for certainty when the Triumphal Entry occurred,

as it would "mess up" their theology.  It is pride and a long tradition that prevents them from finding the facts.

 

The "Reformers" lost the structure and power of the Pope and the "Holy" Catholic Church in exchange for the Bible in the "common tongue". 

Unfortunately a large portion of Catholic Theology, they retained.  Especially noteworthy is the Protestant/Catholic Doctrines of Replacement Theology (where "the Church" replaces Israel).

They reject any future role of Israel and make us to believe that we already are in "the Millennium" and Christ is "ruling from his Throne" in heaven.

 

Replacement Theology - the Church has replaced Israel because Israel rejected the Messiah

Preterism - all prophecies have already been fulfilled and we are in the Millennium (ie: the Church).

"Symbolization" of any Scripture that doesn't conform to their pre-conceived replacement theology and/or

"Allegorization" of  any Scripture that doesn't conform to their pre-conceived replacement theology

 

Today, the Catholic Church will provide you with a Bible in your "native tongue" and even encourage you to read it.

Many Protestants are "attracted" to 4th Century Catholic Theology, especially their fuzzy escatology...

it's a "sign of the times".

 

You Brethren always resort to abuse instead of quoting the scriptures, or even the source of your accusations.

 

I do not support RT, neither do I have any idea what CT is, although I have asked a number of times.  Sorry Bro, but I left the Brethren years ago.

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You Brethren always resort to abuse instead of quoting the scriptures, or even the source of your accusations.

I do not support RT, neither do I have any idea what CT is, although I have asked a number of times. Sorry Bro, but I left the Brethren years ago.


Gotta have a chuckle here - him rolling out RT is abuse, but you rolling out Brethren is not.... :D

I do think it is unnecessary full stop.
Argue the points, not the people.

Covenanter and I dissagree heavily on many things but he rarely resorts to personal attacks - this thread is prime example.

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Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
 

The Bible simply says that 70 "weeks" are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem). In our mind, we think those "weeks" should run concurrently...that's how we think in terms of other things.

 

Now, it's OBvious that from the time when those "weeks" began (the decree to restore and build) that all of those things haven't happened as pointed out in God's word in Daniel 9:24...

 

70 weeks were determined...there's nothing to imply that those weeks had to run concurrent, and since all of Daniel 9:24 hasn't transpired...there had to be a break in the time-line.

 

Isaiah 55:8
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
 
We would naturally run those weeks consecutively, because that makes sense to us...but that doesn't mean God would.   ;)  :)

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7, 62, 1.......

Anyone know why the first 7 are separated numerically?

Why wasn't it stated "threescore and nine weeks", instead of 7 and 62?

I haven't bothered to look into it, but the passage itself doesn't appear to give a reason.....

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