Can God Use A Man That Drinks Wine?

[Donillo]

I know that, HC. I was trying to be gentle with Donillo. They are a scary group. I know a few people who went to the Nazarene church and are so against Christianity b/c of their ridiculous doctrine. They think everyone is like the Nazarene Church. *sigh*

I thought it was the IFB as more extreme than Nazarenes. I was a member of the Nazarene church for many years and am thinking of leaving the IFB and returning.

[HappyChristian]

Well, gentle is fine.      I was simply speaking to your use of the word "almost", that's all.  

 

Donillo, the Nazarene church teaches that one must keep certain rules in order to keep one's salvation. IFB do not teach that.  Strictness aside, it's best to look at the beliefs and teachings in toto.

[candlelight]

I thought it was the IFB as more extreme than Nazarenes. I was a member of the Nazarene church for many years and am thinking of leaving the IFB and returning.

No, Donillo.  They are legalistic and don't believe in eternal security of the believer.  They believe that men and women are going to hell on their works, or good deeds if they break one thing in the Bible.

[Alimantado]

It's not only IFB's. The Free Methodist and Nazarene churches have the same rules about drinking, dancing, and playing cards.

 

The Exclusive Brethren will do too, and probably many other Brethren churches. Many presbyterian too, especially in parts of Scotland.

[Donillo]

Well, gentle is fine. I was simply speaking to your use of the word "almost", that's all.

Donillo, the Nazarene church teaches that one must keep certain rules in order to keep one's salvation. IFB do not teach that. Strictness aside, it's best to look at the beliefs and teachings in toto.

That's a misunderstanding, they don't teach works based salvation. In fact they don't preach losing salvation, it's not foremost in their minds. They love God and worship in spirit and truth. Study Wesleyan theology and that is what we believe.

[HappyChristian]

Well, Donillo, I'll have to take exception to that. See, my husband's uncle was a Nazarene preacher many years ago.  But then he got divorced. And so had to get saved all over again.  That was their teaching.  And that is a works based salvation.  And they do teach that, whether the church(es) you were part of did or not.  

 

Any teaching that says one can lose salvation - a gift from God - is teaching a works based salvation.  

 

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/affirm.htm  Question #9 affirms that Nazarenes do indeed believe and teach loss of salvation...only they don't call it that...

[Alimantado]

Any teaching that says one can lose salvation - a gift from God - is teaching a works based salvation.  

 

Interesting stuff, HC. The website you linked to pre-emptively includes a rebuttal of your claim above:

 

Those in the once-saved-always-saved camp have sometimes accused us of believing that our works count toward our salvation. That is not true. Salvation is of grace. God offers us a renewed relationship with Him based on Christ's work on the cross. We can choose to begin that relationship and we can choose to continue it or even -- tragically -- end it.

 

 

What are your thoughts on that 'response'?

[Donillo]

Well, Donillo, I'll have to take exception to that. See, my husband's uncle was a Nazarene preacher many years ago. But then he got divorced. And so had to get saved all over again. That was their teaching. And that is a works based salvation. And they do teach that, whether the church(es) you were part of did or not.

Any teaching that says one can lose salvation - a gift from God - is teaching a works based salvation.

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/affirm.htm Question #9 affirms that Nazarenes do indeed believe and teach loss of salvation...only they don't call it that...

I knew this guy Culbertson while in Italy. He,was a missionary then:
Culbertson: A major problem with the "once-saved-always-saved" belief is that it creates grave problems for the idea of free will. That is, the once-saved-always-saved belief says that even if a person decides to walk away from God and even goes so far as to try to renounce any belief at all, he or she is still saved.
The once-saved-always-saved idea gives problems in trying to understand the events involving Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. If they were "saved" before the Fall (and I think we can say they were), then how do we explain the fact they were able to make a choice that led them to "lose" that salvation?
Actually, in the tradition we're a part of (Salvation Army, Free Methodist Church, Nazarene, Friends Church, Assemblies of God, Church of God, Methodist church, Free Will Baptist, etc.) the phrase "lose your salvation" is not used much. Saying "lose your salvation" makes it sound like salvation is a ticket or coupon or some kind of object. At the very heart of salvation is a relationship. Relationships can be broken; they can be renounced and walked away from.

[HappyChristian]

Interesting stuff, HC. The website you linked to pre-emptively includes a rebuttal of your claim above:

 

 

What are your thoughts on that 'response'?

It's kind of double-tongued.  No, they don't link works to get saved originally, but they have to keep themselves saved.  That is works based.

 

They compare it to relationships, but the thing they forget is that a father is always a father once a child is born - whether that child walks away from the relationship, whether the child dies, whether the father turns away from the child, or whether the father dies.  Actions do not negate the familial relationship.  They do affect the fellowship of that relationship, but they don't end the relationship.

 

Salvation is a gift from God. One He does not take back.  When one is saved, that one becomes a child of God for eternity, according to scripture.  Not just until one decides they don't want to be a child of God anymore.

 

Salvation is eternal, Donillo.  No matter what reasoning man might put on it.  God says it's eternal and that's all there is to it.  Free will?  Free will allows us to turn to God. It also allows us to backslide.  But God says salvation - becoming His child- is forever.  Even if that child is in disobedience.

 

To say that maintaining one's salvation is dependent on the free will of the person is to put a work on that person.  We are not able to save ourselves, but the keeping of that salvation depends on our works?  No.  Not so.  Any teaching that teaches that salvation can be lost is a works based salvation. Even if the words "loss of salvation" aren't used...

[No Nicolaitans]

I knew this guy Culbertson while in Italy. He,was a missionary then:
Culbertson: A major problem with the "once-saved-always-saved" belief is that it creates grave problems for the idea of free will. That is, the once-saved-always-saved belief says that even if a person decides to walk away from God and even goes so far as to try to renounce any belief at all, he or she is still saved.
The once-saved-always-saved idea gives problems in trying to understand the events involving Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. If they were "saved" before the Fall (and I think we can say they were), then how do we explain the fact they were able to make a choice that led them to "lose" that salvation?
Actually, in the tradition we're a part of (Salvation Army, Free Methodist Church, Nazarene, Friends Church, Assemblies of God, Church of God, Methodist church, Free Will Baptist, etc.) the phrase "lose your salvation" is not used much. Saying "lose your salvation" makes it sound like salvation is a ticket or coupon or some kind of object. At the very heart of salvation is a relationship. Relationships can be broken; they can be renounced and walked away from.

 

I realize that Culbertson said this...not Donillo.

 

Adam and Eve weren't "saved" before the Fall.  They were created innocent and without sin.  They didn't need salvation until after they became sinners.  They didn't lose salvation; they lost their innocence and sinlessness; thereby, causing them to need salvation.

[wretched]

Excellent explanations Madame HC:

 

May I add that those regenerated by the Spirt: IE born again are sealed by the Spirit: IE indwelt by the Spirit.

 

They cannot change their minds about Jesus and the Gospel. It is actually impossible for them to turn to false gods, idols, etc (even humanism). Oh, all will have doubts and wonderings from time to time but would absolutely never ever IMAGINE worshipping a false god again (even humanism, IE worldly lusts) Now, they may fall into sin but they never feel right about it and always know in their hearts it is wrong and procrastinate to the day they will once again get right with the Lord.

 

If they do "break this relationship" and turn to other gods (even the humanism of the world that says there is no god), they were never regenerated...you see, its Bible science

[No Nicolaitans]

Excellent explanations Madame HC:

 

May I add that those regenerated by the Spirt: IE born again are sealed by the Spirit: IE indwelt by the Spirit.

 

They cannot change their minds about Jesus and the Gospel. It is actually impossible for them to turn to false gods, idols, etc (even humanism). Oh, all will have doubts and wonderings from time to time but would absolutely never ever IMAGINE worshipping a false god again (even humanism, IE worldly lusts) Now, they may fall into sin but they never feel right about it and always know in their hearts it is wrong and procrastinate to the day they will once again get right with the Lord.

 

If they do "break this relationship" and turn to other gods (even the humanism of the world that says there is no god), they were never regenerated...you see, its Bible science

 

Indeed!

 

1 John 2:19

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[Miss Daisy]

The church of Nazarene in my church is one of the most liberal in my town! Female pastor too! All I've ever met is very liberal Nazarenes. And it's one of the biggest churches in town.

[Donillo]

The church of Nazarene in my church is one of the most liberal in my town! Female pastor too! All I've ever met is very liberal Nazarenes. And it's one of the biggest churches in town.

What's wrong with women pastors? First you say that they're legalistic etc. Now they're liberal!

[Miss Daisy]

I personally, said no such thing. Re-read my post.