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The Glory Land

Can God Use A Man That Drinks Wine?

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Well, Donillo, I'll have to take exception to that. See, my husband's uncle was a Nazarene preacher many years ago.  But then he got divorced. And so had to get saved all over again.  That was their teaching.  And that is a works based salvation.  And they do teach that, whether the church(es) you were part of did or not.  

 

Any teaching that says one can lose salvation - a gift from God - is teaching a works based salvation.  

 

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/affirm.htm  Question #9 affirms that Nazarenes do indeed believe and teach loss of salvation...only they don't call it that...

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Any teaching that says one can lose salvation - a gift from God - is teaching a works based salvation.  

 

Interesting stuff, HC. The website you linked to pre-emptively includes a rebuttal of your claim above:

 

Those in the once-saved-always-saved camp have sometimes accused us of believing that our works count toward our salvation. That is not true. Salvation is of grace. God offers us a renewed relationship with Him based on Christ's work on the cross. We can choose to begin that relationship and we can choose to continue it or even -- tragically -- end it.

 

 

What are your thoughts on that 'response'?

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Well, Donillo, I'll have to take exception to that. See, my husband's uncle was a Nazarene preacher many years ago. But then he got divorced. And so had to get saved all over again. That was their teaching. And that is a works based salvation. And they do teach that, whether the church(es) you were part of did or not.

Any teaching that says one can lose salvation - a gift from God - is teaching a works based salvation.

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/affirm.htm Question #9 affirms that Nazarenes do indeed believe and teach loss of salvation...only they don't call it that...


I knew this guy Culbertson while in Italy. He,was a missionary then:
Culbertson: A major problem with the "once-saved-always-saved" belief is that it creates grave problems for the idea of free will. That is, the once-saved-always-saved belief says that even if a person decides to walk away from God and even goes so far as to try to renounce any belief at all, he or she is still saved.
The once-saved-always-saved idea gives problems in trying to understand the events involving Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. If they were "saved" before the Fall (and I think we can say they were), then how do we explain the fact they were able to make a choice that led them to "lose" that salvation?
Actually, in the tradition we're a part of (Salvation Army, Free Methodist Church, Nazarene, Friends Church, Assemblies of God, Church of God, Methodist church, Free Will Baptist, etc.) the phrase "lose your salvation" is not used much. Saying "lose your salvation" makes it sound like salvation is a ticket or coupon or some kind of object. At the very heart of salvation is a relationship. Relationships can be broken; they can be renounced and walked away from.

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Interesting stuff, HC. The website you linked to pre-emptively includes a rebuttal of your claim above:

 

 

What are your thoughts on that 'response'?

It's kind of double-tongued.  No, they don't link works to get saved originally, but they have to keep themselves saved.  That is works based.

 

They compare it to relationships, but the thing they forget is that a father is always a father once a child is born - whether that child walks away from the relationship, whether the child dies, whether the father turns away from the child, or whether the father dies.  Actions do not negate the familial relationship.  They do affect the fellowship of that relationship, but they don't end the relationship.

 

Salvation is a gift from God. One He does not take back.  When one is saved, that one becomes a child of God for eternity, according to scripture.  Not just until one decides they don't want to be a child of God anymore.

 

Salvation is eternal, Donillo.  No matter what reasoning man might put on it.  God says it's eternal and that's all there is to it.  Free will?  Free will allows us to turn to God. It also allows us to backslide.  But God says salvation - becoming His child- is forever.  Even if that child is in disobedience.

 

To say that maintaining one's salvation is dependent on the free will of the person is to put a work on that person.  We are not able to save ourselves, but the keeping of that salvation depends on our works?  No.  Not so.  Any teaching that teaches that salvation can be lost is a works based salvation. Even if the words "loss of salvation" aren't used...

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I knew this guy Culbertson while in Italy. He,was a missionary then:
Culbertson: A major problem with the "once-saved-always-saved" belief is that it creates grave problems for the idea of free will. That is, the once-saved-always-saved belief says that even if a person decides to walk away from God and even goes so far as to try to renounce any belief at all, he or she is still saved.
The once-saved-always-saved idea gives problems in trying to understand the events involving Adam and Eve in Genesis 3. If they were "saved" before the Fall (and I think we can say they were), then how do we explain the fact they were able to make a choice that led them to "lose" that salvation?
Actually, in the tradition we're a part of (Salvation Army, Free Methodist Church, Nazarene, Friends Church, Assemblies of God, Church of God, Methodist church, Free Will Baptist, etc.) the phrase "lose your salvation" is not used much. Saying "lose your salvation" makes it sound like salvation is a ticket or coupon or some kind of object. At the very heart of salvation is a relationship. Relationships can be broken; they can be renounced and walked away from.

 

I realize that Culbertson said this...not Donillo.

 

Adam and Eve weren't "saved" before the Fall.  They were created innocent and without sin.  They didn't need salvation until after they became sinners.  They didn't lose salvation; they lost their innocence and sinlessness; thereby, causing them to need salvation.

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Excellent explanations Madame HC:

 

May I add that those regenerated by the Spirt: IE born again are sealed by the Spirit: IE indwelt by the Spirit.

 

They cannot change their minds about Jesus and the Gospel. It is actually impossible for them to turn to false gods, idols, etc (even humanism). Oh, all will have doubts and wonderings from time to time but would absolutely never ever IMAGINE worshipping a false god again (even humanism, IE worldly lusts) Now, they may fall into sin but they never feel right about it and always know in their hearts it is wrong and procrastinate to the day they will once again get right with the Lord.

 

If they do "break this relationship" and turn to other gods (even the humanism of the world that says there is no god), they were never regenerated...you see, its Bible science :)

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Excellent explanations Madame HC:

 

May I add that those regenerated by the Spirt: IE born again are sealed by the Spirit: IE indwelt by the Spirit.

 

They cannot change their minds about Jesus and the Gospel. It is actually impossible for them to turn to false gods, idols, etc (even humanism). Oh, all will have doubts and wonderings from time to time but would absolutely never ever IMAGINE worshipping a false god again (even humanism, IE worldly lusts) Now, they may fall into sin but they never feel right about it and always know in their hearts it is wrong and procrastinate to the day they will once again get right with the Lord.

 

If they do "break this relationship" and turn to other gods (even the humanism of the world that says there is no god), they were never regenerated...you see, its Bible science :)

 

Indeed!

 

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

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The church of Nazarene in my church is one of the most liberal in my town! Female pastor too! All I've ever met is very liberal Nazarenes. And it's one of the biggest churches in town.


What's wrong with women pastors? First you say that they're legalistic etc. Now they're liberal!

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It's kind of double-tongued.  No, they don't link works to get saved originally, but they have to keep themselves saved.  That is works based.

 

They compare it to relationships, but the thing they forget is that a father is always a father once a child is born - whether that child walks away from the relationship, whether the child dies, whether the father turns away from the child, or whether the father dies.  Actions do not negate the familial relationship.  They do affect the fellowship of that relationship, but they don't end the relationship.

 

Salvation is a gift from God. One He does not take back.  When one is saved, that one becomes a child of God for eternity, according to scripture.  Not just until one decides they don't want to be a child of God anymore.

 

Salvation is eternal, Donillo.  No matter what reasoning man might put on it.  God says it's eternal and that's all there is to it.  Free will?  Free will allows us to turn to God. It also allows us to backslide.  But God says salvation - becoming His child- is forever.  Even if that child is in disobedience.

 

To say that maintaining one's salvation is dependent on the free will of the person is to put a work on that person.  We are not able to save ourselves, but the keeping of that salvation depends on our works?  No.  Not so.  Any teaching that teaches that salvation can be lost is a works based salvation. Even if the words "loss of salvation" aren't used...

 

First of all, HC, let me say that I'm not disputing that this group are wrong when they say salvation can be lost. Nevertheless, I don't see how making a free will choice to stay with God--or to not walk away--could be called a 'work', even if it were possible. If we say that exercising free will to stay with God would be a work, how then do we not also say that exercising free will to turn to God is a work? And, of course, that exactly what Calvinists say about those who believe that man has the free will to turn to God--they say they are teaching works salvation.

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...it is not a sin to drink. The bible says be not DRUNK with wine. Also the same with dancing. David danced. If you're married, do you not dance with your spouse or are you a bump on a log!!??

 

When is one drunk?  Right after they drunk the first sip!  It is sin as is social dancing.  David didn't dance with women in a disco or at the honkey tonk, he was dancing for the Lord.  Stay on topic now.  

 

I thought it was the IFB as more extreme than Nazarenes. I was a member of the Nazarene church for many years and am thinking of leaving the IFB and returning.

 

Come now Donillo, you seem like a nice enough fellow, why have you not yet learned what a Scriptural New Testament Church is?  You know the kind that Jesus Christ founded and died for?  

 

Nazarenes are a man-made church, started by a man with works based salvation doctrine which is of the devil.  They are not organized scripturally either with para-church organizations and yoking with the Communistic World Council of Churches and other perverted groups.

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I do not drink, not because I can not handle it but because I mad a vow with God not too. I used to drink wine in fact I used to make my own wine as a hobby. 1 Timothy 3:3 when referring to a Bishop same thing as a Pastor it says not giving to wine. But when it gives the qualifications of a deacon it says in 1 Timothy 3:8 not giving to much wine. So why is a Pastor not to have any wine and a deacon not to have much wine. Well that is hard to answer. I would prefer nobody drink it causes problems trust me I know. Did Jesus make real wine at the wedding yes I believe he did people are not going to save the best grape juice for last that is just silly. I believe the bible says what it means and means what it says and he made water into wine period not new wine not grape juice but wine, He is the catcher though Jesus did not drink it. Now at the last supper did he use wine will they only had a sip and if that was wine it was all Jesus ever had though if I preform the Lords supper I would only use grape juice.

 

Now the problem is if it is okay to have small amounts of wine how much is to much and when is it ok. You should never drink around children period. You should never drink when you are going to operate a vehicle or make any important decision. You should never drink in public it is a bad witness the sinner observing you doesn't know how much you are drinking. We must avoid the appearance of evil. So when and how much is a big question. The wine made today is about 12% alcohol the wine made in the bible days was 6% or less. So if they drank a glass of wine you would only have a half a glass. Now I said I used to drink until I decided to follow my calling and get ordained but I took a vow like John the Baptist did. I like the fact that I drank for one reason it gave me something to give up for GOD. I only drank at celebrations and before bed it helped me get to sleep easy.

 

Some day I will be a Pastor of a Church and what will I tell people if you tell some one it is okay to have a drink they will have two drinks. I know how people are. Alcohol has cause so much deviation in so man peoples lives I have seen it with my own eyes I have seen the carnage cause by drinking. I was a medic in the navy years ago and saw the mess and horrible injuries inflicted and caused by drinking. I was a cab driver and have seen people at there worst while drinking. What is the fine line you cross from having a drink to being a drunkard. The bible says drunkards can not enter the kingdom.

 

If you want my advice take it or leave it. You do not need any wine. You need to serve the Lord and help reach the lost and dying world out there. Take a vow like John the Baptist did an for sake drinking all together. Serve the LORD win souls for GOD. Help out a ministry. The time is short here don't waste you salvation on a glass of wine it is not that important what is important is peoples lives. Open you eyes a see what drinking has done in your community. GOD BLESS you.

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1 Corinthians 3:10-15

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

King David was a man after God's own heart because he repented and turned back to God. He did many sins.

 

If you believe any action is sin and you do it, to you it is sin.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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The Nazarenes I was familiar with held to the idea of achieving perfect holiness in this life.


It's called entire sanctification, a second work of grace. One is first saved and then he discovers that there still remains the effects of sin and that is when he goes deeper in the Lord - from justified to sanctified

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Scripture calls us to pursue holiness; "be ye holy as I am holy".

 

The Nazarenes I've been familiar with believed perfect holiness could be attained in this life and such was a sign one is truly saved. Some Nazarenes were rather harsh with others who hadn't achieved "perfect holiness" like they claimed to have done.

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I do not drink, not because I can not handle it but because I mad a vow with God not too. I used to drink wine in fact I used to make my own wine as a hobby. 1 Timothy 3:3 when referring to a Bishop same thing as a Pastor it says not giving to wine. But when it gives the qualifications of a deacon it says in 1 Timothy 3:8 not giving to much wine. So why is a Pastor not to have any wine and a deacon not to have much wine. Well that is hard to answer. I would prefer nobody drink it causes problems trust me I know. Did Jesus make real wine at the wedding yes I believe he did people are not going to save the best grape juice for last that is just silly. I believe the bible says what it means and means what it says and he made water into wine period not new wine not grape juice but wine, He is the catcher though Jesus did not drink it. Now at the last supper did he use wine will they only had a sip and if that was wine it was all Jesus ever had though if I preform the Lords supper I would only use grape juice.

 

Now the problem is if it is okay to have small amounts of wine how much is to much and when is it ok. You should never drink around children period. You should never drink when you are going to operate a vehicle or make any important decision. You should never drink in public it is a bad witness the sinner observing you doesn't know how much you are drinking. We must avoid the appearance of evil. So when and how much is a big question. The wine made today is about 12% alcohol the wine made in the bible days was 6% or less. So if they drank a glass of wine you would only have a half a glass. Now I said I used to drink until I decided to follow my calling and get ordained but I took a vow like John the Baptist did. I like the fact that I drank for one reason it gave me something to give up for GOD. I only drank at celebrations and before bed it helped me get to sleep easy.

 

Some day I will be a Pastor of a Church and what will I tell people if you tell some one it is okay to have a drink they will have two drinks. I know how people are. Alcohol has cause so much deviation in so man peoples lives I have seen it with my own eyes I have seen the carnage cause by drinking. I was a medic in the navy years ago and saw the mess and horrible injuries inflicted and caused by drinking. I was a cab driver and have seen people at there worst while drinking. What is the fine line you cross from having a drink to being a drunkard. The bible says drunkards can not enter the kingdom.

 

If you want my advice take it or leave it. You do not need any wine. You need to serve the Lord and help reach the lost and dying world out there. Take a vow like John the Baptist did an for sake drinking all together. Serve the LORD win souls for GOD. Help out a ministry. The time is short here don't waste you salvation on a glass of wine it is not that important what is important is peoples lives. Open you eyes a see what drinking has done in your community. GOD BLESS you.

 

**Reposting**
 

John 2:1-10

King James Version (KJV)

 
And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
  
The "good wine" was not alcoholic wine.  It was PURE grape juice.  I am shocked when I hear Christians talk about Jesus drinking alcoholic wine.  How could the sinless Son of God miraculously fabricate a wine which His own Holy Word denounced as "the poison of the serpent." Proverbs 23-32.  Also, the Proverbs are principles to live by not promises.  Lets flip the coin and show the other side.  Some Christians will use every gimmick of interpretation and every technical loophole. Christ's first miracle is one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible.  But there is no foundation in scripture to back the assumption that Jesus drank fermented wine.  It was his enemies that said this.  I am certainly not going to support his enemies.  Our Saviour is sinless. If Jesus made and drank alcoholic wine, let's all do it.  Lets let our children go on their merry way towards alcoholism.  

Not all wine is alcoholic any more than all cider is hard.  It is inconceivable to me that our blessed Lord Jesus Christ would ever produce an intoxicant, or that He used fermented wine at Passover.  The Jews (at that time) did not drink alcohol during Passover.  It was forbidden.  He used this wine at Passover as the symbol of His own shed blood.

Fermented wine is decayed wine.  Can that be the symbol of new life in the Spirit?  His holy flesh never saw decay or corruption.  The cup of the Lord and the cup of the devil are two entirely different things.  Jesus also miraculously created bread to feed the five thousand, but it was not moldy bread.  Now did he create rotten fish?  Jesus Christ is the creator of life, not death.
Edited by candlelight

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**Reposting**

John 2:1-10
King James Version (KJV)


2 apiece.
7
The "good wine" was not alcoholic wine. It was PURE grape juice. I am shocked when I hear Christians talk about Jesus drinking alcoholic wine. How could the sinless Son of God miraculously fabricate a wine which His own Holy Word denounced as "the poison of the serpent." Proverbs 23-32. Also, the Proverbs are principles to live by not promises. Lets flip the coin and show the other side. Some Christians will use every gimmick of interpretation and every technical loophole. Christ's first miracle is one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible. But there is no foundation in scripture to back the assumption that Jesus drank fermented wine. It was his enemies that said this. I am certainly not going to support his enemies. Our Saviour is sinless. If Jesus made and drank alcoholic wine, let's all do it. Lets let our children go on their merry way towards alcoholism.
.




So the guests at Cana were all teetotalers? I don't believe that. And, if it was only grape juice why would people go back for seconds or thirds??? They must have been really thirsty for non-alcoholic grape juice. No, I believe the wine they had at Cana was fermented and people were have a good time and ran out. Then Jesus made them good wine., so good that the guests (who were not teetotalers) complemented the host.

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First of all, HC, let me say that I'm not disputing that this group are wrong when they say salvation can be lost. Nevertheless, I don't see how making a free will choice to stay with God--or to not walk away--could be called a 'work', even if it were possible. If we say that exercising free will to stay with God would be a work, how then do we not also say that exercising free will to turn to God is a work? And, of course, that exactly what Calvinists say about those who believe that man has the free will to turn to God--they say they are teaching works salvation.

That is a good point, Carl, but think with me on this...

 

God has offered the gift of salvation freely to all who will come to Him.  Christ did the work of redemption on the cross, and so no man needs to do anything to have this gift - except realize that one is a sinner and turn to Christ.

 

Now, God has promised that salvation is eternal, and that it is a gift. Gifts can only be received, not worked for (or they are no longer a gift).  That we can all agree on, no?

 

Okay....so, salvation is only through Christ.  And that necessarily includes the eternal aspect of it, because God has said that the life He gives is eternal, everlasting.

 

If there were any way to lose that salvation, there would be conditions put on that salvation - and necessarily so, because it wouldn't be fair of God to give us something that we could lose if we did or didn't do something and didn't know about it. (hope that's clear...).  And God is completely just, so always fair.

 

Once salvation is given, there is no more free will to walk away from it (as in losing it...there is free will to backslide).  Why? Because salvation is from God, is eternal, and God will not go back on His word.

 

If a person could walk away by free will, and thus lose his/her salvation, that person would exhibit more power than the blood of Jesus and more power than the word of God who says salvation is eternal.

 

Thus, what they are teaching is a works-based salvation because keeping it is contingent upon the will of the person being saved rather than the One doing the saving.

 

I hope that makes sense...

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I do not drink, not because I can not handle it but because I mad a vow with God not too.

 

Did Jesus make real wine at the wedding yes I believe he did...

 

Some day I will be a Pastor of a Church...

 

Sir, the Lord can't use you yet because you're thinking on this matter is not in accord with the Scriptures.  Why would God tell us not even to look at it and then make it for a party?  Nonsense.

 

Swath, where have they espoused salvation by works?

 

I've not seen it in writing, well once, a long time ago but I do not remember, it's on their big website though, cleverly phrased.  I learned much more by reading a book about them and even more by knowing many of them!  They all believe that you can lose your salvation and have to earn it back.  One example is that if you don't commune with Jesus enough, you can lose your salvation, you have to keep praying, going to church and tithing several of them said.  More nonsense.

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Sir, the Lord can't use you yet because you're thinking on this matter is not in accord with the Scriptures.


And he's me thinking that Our Lord may use whomever He wishes to. Even those we may disagree with...

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