Wow! Kudos To This Public School Principal...

[HappyChristian]

Thanks for laughing at my usage of Webster's 1828, Annie. It may be an old book, but it's accurate. And his definition of chastisement uses the word punishment. As a synonym, no less. Hmmm...but maybe he just isn't as smart as some of us in the 21st century. After all, that was a long time ago. He may "imply" that it goes further than punishment in your reading of it, but the plain fact of the matter is that they are synonymous.

But you ignored the wiki definition...which is current and secular. And says the same thing.

The list you gave isn't all there is to punishment.

Here's a 1911 defition of corporal punishment...yikes! It's not current, and it comes from the UK -

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT, chastisement inflicted by one person on the body (corpus) of another.

From 2001 - also from Scotland. Too old? Too far away?

PHYSICAL CHASTISEMENT OF CHILDREN
Changing public attitudes towards corporal punishment and a lack of clarity in
Scottish Law relating to the physical punishment of children...

Interesting interchange of terms, eh?

Malta, 2007

Corporal punishment is lawful in the home. Parents and legal guardians are legally obliged to provide adequate care, protection and guidance for their children, but ?reasonable chastisement? is permitted in common law and the Criminal Code (1854, amended 2006) recognises ?lawful correction? (article 229). Article 132 of the Civil Code (1870, amended 2006) states: ?(1) A child shall obey his parents in all that is permitted by law.? Article 154 (1)(a) states that a parent may be deprived of the rights of parental authority ?if the parent, exceeding the bounds of reasonable chastisement, ill-treats the child, or neglects his education?.

Hmmm...interchangeable here, too.

[Annie]

Thanks for laughing at my usage of Webster's 1828' date=' Annie. It may be an old book, but it's accurate. And his definition of chastisement uses the word [i']punishment. As a synonym, no less. Hmmm...but maybe he just isn't as smart as some of us in the 21st century. After all, that was a long time ago. He may "imply" that it goes further than punishment in your reading of it, but the plain fact of the matter is that they are synonymous.

But you ignored the wiki definition...which is current and secular. And says the same thing.

The list you gave isn't all there is to punishment.

Yes, I understand we can quibble over definitions all day...But the million-dollar question is this: how does Scripture use these terms, especially as regards the parent/child relationship? Is the word punish used even once in that context? I'm asking b/c I don't know for sure, but I have a hunch it is not used in Scripture in this way.

And the question with regard to the OP is this: does corporal punishment, administered by public school officials, fall within the biblical idea of the kind of chastisement used in the parent/child relationship? If it does not, then the officials, ostensibly operating in loco parentis, are not administering the right kind of discipline. They are merely regulating behavior, which we all know is not the purpose of God's chastisement of us, nor of the chastisement we administer to our children. IOW, it totally misses the biblical boat of the purpose of spanking, and is therefore unbiblical.

[Revelation3:20]

And the question with regard to the OP is this: does corporal punishment, administered by public school officials, fall within the biblical idea of the kind of chastisement used in the parent/child relationship?

Galatians 4:1-2 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Multiple scriptures establish that it was acceptable to administer corporal punishment to a servant in those days, and Paul states that the teacher pupil relationship was like the servant master relationship. I think it reasonable to conclude that it would be biblical for a teacher to possess the authority to administer corporal punishment to disobedient students. Culturally such is no longer acceptable though, and since there is no biblical command that a teacher must give corporal punishment to disobedient students we are free to deffer to culture. We are not free to do that in the case of our own children however, scripture is quite clear on that aspect.

[HappyChristian]

And the question with regard to the OP is this: does corporal punishment, administered by public school officials, fall within the biblical idea of the kind of chastisement used in the parent/child relationship? If it does not, then the officials, ostensibly operating in loco parentis, are not administering the right kind of discipline. They are merely regulating behavior, which we all know is not the purpose of God's chastisement of us, nor of the chastisement we administer to our children. IOW, it totally misses the biblical boat of the purpose of spanking, and is therefore unbiblical.

So you don't regulate your children's behavior with your admistration of punishment/chastisement? Of course you do! That's part of working on their hearts. Teaching them the difference between right and wrong. It is not the only aspect, but it is very definitely one. Otherwise, God would have simply told us to talk to them, rather than "beat them with a rod" (please note - I don't believe God is meaning abuse, nor am I advocating it...simply quoting scripture). He said both the rod and reproof drive away the foolishness bound into a child's heart. Both aspects of punishment (or chastisement, or whatever you want to call it!).

If the parents of a child give permission to the principal to spank, they are within their biblical rights of parenting. So it might change the child's behavior at school. That's such a terrible thing, isn't it? That's one of the points of discipline. Changing behavior. Yes, I know true change doesn't come unless and until the heart is changed - but spanking helps to bring that about.

[Annie]

So you don't regulate your children's behavior with your admistration of punishment/chastisement? Of course you do!

As I said before, my purpose is not to regulate their behavior...whereas that is the only purpose of corporal punishment in the public school setting. The kind of spanking that is administered merely to regulate behavior is not the right kind of spanking; it falls dreadfully short of the biblical purpose for spanking, which is motivated by a desire for heart change, and is given in love (not just "in emotional control"), not just to make the child afraid of misbehaving again. It sends the wrong message to the child when he is summoned into the principal's office, takes his licks for punishment, is told not to do it again, and then leaves.

That's part of working on their hearts.

But it's not the only part. (And I'm not even sure that "regulating behavior" is really part of working on their hearts. When I spank my children, the focus is not on "the behavior," but what "the behavior" reveals about what is in their hearts. They don't get spanked for lying; they get spanked for failing to love the truth. They don't get spanked for disobeying; they get spanked for wanting their own way over God's way. They don't get spanked for grabbing a toy; they get spanked for loving themselves more than they love others.) Regardless of whether you agree with the preceding parenthetical material, I think you'd agree at least that merely regulating behavior is not enough, and is not the sole purpose of spanking. In the public school mentioned, I can't believe that anything else is happening besides a regulation of behavior. And that's not how I would want my children to view spanking, or to employ spanking with their children someday.

Teaching them the difference between right and wrong. It is not the only aspect, but it is very definitely one. Otherwise, God would have simply told us to talk to them, rather than "beat them with a rod" (please note - I don't believe God is meaning abuse, nor am I advocating it...simply quoting scripture). He said both the rod and reproof drive away the foolishness bound into a child's heart. Both aspects of punishment (or chastisement, or whatever you want to call it!).

I agree with all of this. But again, the biblical focus is not on the behavior, but on the heart issues. That's where corporal punishment in a public school setting fails the child. It makes him think it's all about behavior, at least in that relationship, at school, where he spends most of his waking hours. He is conditioned to believe: "It doesn't matter what I'm thinking/believing; as long as I look sharp and behave myself and don't give any lip, I'm OK with the principal (who my mom and dad say is standing in for them while I'm at school)." No heart changes are being encouraged or made, because that's not the administrator's goal in spanking. He's just trying to keep order by regulating behavior. And it probably works. It's just not biblical, IMO. And the kid grows up thinking it's all about behavior.

Another disturbing statement (which only bears out the fact that the corporal punishment under discussion is the wrong kind) was from one of the students' dads, who gave the administrator permission to "whip his kid's butt." Sad. This isn't even close to biblical chastisement.

If the parents of a child give permission to the principal to spank, they are within their biblical rights of parenting. So it might change the child's behavior at school. That's such a terrible thing, isn't it? That's one of the points of discipline. Changing behavior. Yes, I know true change doesn't come unless and until the heart is changed - but spanking helps to bring that about.

Behavioral change without heart change is hypocrisy, plain and simple. Sure, I expect that my discipline will affect my children's behavior, but the change will come from the inside out, b/c I deal with the heart issues, not the behavior. Improved behavior is merely a positive side effect; heart change is the reason for it. If my child's behavior changes, but his heart does not, then my discipline has not been effective, and the behavior change has nothing to do with God's purpose for him, or His working in his life, and I would rather the behavior not change, so that I can tell that he still needs work. I believe that is what is happening with PS corporal punishment. Behavior may change, but the child reaps no net gain, since he is no closer to God as a result, and has only gotten the message that if he can just control his outward actions, he's off the hook--no worries.

Thanks for laughing at my usage of Webster's 1828' date=' Annie.[/quote']
HC, I didn't mean to hit a nerve. Please forgive me. The "laughing" emoticon wasn't meant sarcastically. I was genuinely tickled that in a discussion about word meaning, you referred to a 200-yr-old dictionary. Not that Webster was "wrong"...just that word meanings and connotations do change and evolve over time. Yes, I know you quoted wiki as well...

[Revelation3:20]

(And I'm not even sure that "regulating behavior" is really part of working on their hearts. When I spank my children, the focus is not on "the behavior," but what "the behavior" reveals about what is in their hearts. They don't get spanked for lying; they get spanked for failing to love the truth. They don't get spanked for disobeying; they get spanked for wanting their own way over God's way. They don't get spanked for grabbing a toy; they get spanked for loving themselves more than they love others.)

While what you say sounds nice it is impossible for children to have a habitually right heart until they are saved, and a spanking doesn't EVER make a wrong heart a right heart even then. You can't force a child to have a right heart no matter how much you would like to, it must be their choice. Spanking a child for "loving themselves more than they love others" is misguided in my humble opinion, because it isn't something a spanking can correct. Telling a child that you are spanking him or her because of the condition of their heart teaches them little beyond how to respond to get out of a spanking. Spank for the transgression of the law, try very hard to teach them why the law is good, and teach the child that he or she will continue to struggle with the law unless they choose of their own free will to have a right heart about it.


Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


The real purpose of spankings is to show children unlawful actions brings serious consequences. The parents law serves the same purpose as Gods law, to show the standard, and the wages of sin which rebels suffer. If children learn that early on it will be easier on them later in life.


1 Timothy 1:9-10 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Annie]

While what you say sounds nice it is impossible for children to have a habitually right heart until they are saved' date=' and a spanking doesn't EVER make a wrong heart a right heart even then. You can't force a child to have a right heart no matter how much you would like to, it must be their choice.[/quote']
I agree 100% with this, Revelation. You are absolutely correct that a spanking doesn't EVER make a wrong heart right. The only thing that makes a heart right is confession of sin before God. In this discussion, we're talking about school-aged kids. All of my school-aged children have made professions of faith; they're saved, as far as I can tell. When I spank the ones who are not saved, I still address their hearts, since it is from their depraved hearts that the sinful behavior comes. When the spanking is done, their hearts are still not right, but at least they have been fully informed and directed to the real issue: a heart that is at war with God and causes sinful behavior...a heart that must be redeemed.


I'm not spanking them because of the condition of their hearts; I'm spanking them for sin in their hearts. The reason I feel an obligation to talk about their hearts when I'm disciplining is that the Bible is clear that sin comes from the heart. As Jesus said so clearly in His Sermon on the Mount, the sin is not just the outward behavior, but the inward thoughts. Committing adultery is done in the heart (Matt. 7:27-30); murder begins in the heart (7:21-26); from the heart proceed all the issues of life (Prov. 4:23); foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him. Since the heart is "mission control," I need to address my children's hearts any time I discipline them. Addressing only behavior is like pulling a weed from the stem; the root will continue to live and produce more weeds. And, what is worse, it has the potential of making Pharisees out of my kids. If the outside is all Mom cares about, then it is possible to live like whitened sepulchres; as long as they keep their noses clean, it's all good.

My kids need to understand that, just like the Bible says, every sin is a heart issue. They need to understand that if they give their hearts to God, and strengthen their hearts daily in His Word, their behavior will change for the better. How much better it is for a child to obey because God is working in his heart than because he is afraid of getting a spanking! Discipline that addresses the heart gives them hope that God can help them overcome problems, since it gets at the true root of the problems.


That's exactly what I'm trying to do by addressing the heart issues. The transgression of the law happens in the heart, and is revealed through behavior. Since this is true, I should inform my children of this every time I discipline, as well as (as you say here) throughout daily life, as I teach them "while we walk by the way...rise up," etc. I'm doing them a disfavor if I don't tell them the whole story.

Again, the emphasis is on the mind here. If that's the problem (and it always is), I should tell my children about it. My discipline should always address the inner man.


Is this your opinion, or do you find this in Scripture? Again, Proverbs indicates that "foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction drives it far from him." I understand that spankings do indeed show that unlawful actions bring serious consequences, but IMO that's an improper focus for the parent...or maybe I should say that if that's all that happens, the parent hasn't succeeded in truly disciplining the child. I'm raising disciples who live under grace...who should be obeying God because they love Him, not because they are afraid of Him. They are safe from His wrath, having put their faith in Christ's righteousness. In preparing them to live their lives as recipients of His grace, I'm doing them a disservice if I keep using "the wages of sin" as the focus for my discipline. Sure, a man reaps what he sows, and they need to know that, but the very worst part about sin is that it grieves God. It's not about what happens to us as a result of our sin, but about how it affects our relationship with God.

I'm sorry if I just hijacked this thread...To get back on topic, I'll say that I don't believe corporal punishment in public schools fulfills the biblical instruction regarding discipleship of children and the biblical purpose of spanking. I don't want to be hard on the public school principal whose actions started this discussion; I'm sure he has the best of intentions. He's not physically abusing the kids; it all seems very under control and businesslike. I'm not even saying what he is doing is wrong, as in sinful; all I'm saying is that it doesn't fall under the category of biblical discipline, as in what a parent does for his child...which is OK, I guess, except that he is "standing in the place of the parent" while the kids are at school.

[ptwild]

With that said' date=' I'm totally against any kind of spanking of students in any kind of public education setting. Too many variables and it is the parents responsibility......not someone elses.[/quote']

It's also not someone else's responsiblity to educate other's children, not even that state's. Public education is nothing more than government handout much like food stamps. As someone who is 100% against the public school system (and all other forms of government welfare) I would be in favor of totalling abolishing public schools and converting the buildings into prisons.

Education is not a right, it's a privilege. If you want the privilege of education, you should have to work and pay for just like any other privilege.

[trc123]

Agreed, we are huge supporters of parent lead home schooling and Christians schools (as they answer much more directly to parents). We did that with our children.

With that said, I understand those who disagree on education and do not judge them; I respectfully disagree.

Concerning spanking, I have first hand knowledge of the abuse that occurs (physical and sexual) with allowing school officials to strike or physically handle another parent's child (speaking of a Christian School specifically). As the Scriptures specifically say this is the responsibility of the parent and there is no mention whatsoever (implied or stated) that another should or would be sanctioned by God to do this......I stand my ground........ I think the Christian School that requires the parent to come in and administer any corporal discipline is wise and right.

[ptwild]

I understand that homeschool works well for some kids and even produces higher standardized test scores in some cases. However, I just don't understand how a parent (who has no/limited college education) can effectively teach another person in certain areas, such as advanced mathematics, physics, chemistry (is it even legal for them to have certain chemicals, which are commonly used in school experiments, in their homes?) . . . Both of my parents have a strong educational pedigree but I know for a fact they could not have educated me properly in certain areas.

For those who have had success with home school I applaud you. On the other hand, I think it is an injustice to many children.

[Annie]

I understand that homeschool works well for some kids and even produces higher standardized test scores in some cases. However, I just don't understand how a parent (who has no/limited college education) can effectively teach another person in certain areas, such as advanced mathematics, physics, chemistry (is it even legal for them to have certain chemicals, which are commonly used in school experiments, in their homes?) . . . Both of my parents have a strong educational pedigree but I know for a fact they could not have educated me properly in certain areas.

For those who have had success with home school I applaud you. On the other hand, I think it is an injustice to many children.

I agree. Keep in mind that most homeschooling families draw from a number of resources outside the parents. They are not as limited when it comes to education as kids who attend a public or Christian school where the science program is lousy, and they're trapped there. Modern technology has made a variety of options available to parents who are not qualified to teach certain subjects. Also, there is the option of utilizing the local junior college for science classes and labs. That's what I plan to do, since I am woefully inadequate in that area.

[HappyChristian]

I understand that homeschool works well for some kids and even produces higher standardized test scores in some cases. However, I just don't understand how a parent (who has no/limited college education) can effectively teach another person in certain areas, such as advanced mathematics, physics, chemistry (is it even legal for them to have certain chemicals, which are commonly used in school experiments, in their homes?) . . . Both of my parents have a strong educational pedigree but I know for a fact they could not have educated me properly in certain areas.

For those who have had success with home school I applaud you. On the other hand, I think it is an injustice to many children.

pt - there are a number of parents (and grandparents) who are homeschooling who have no higher degrees of education. Some do a shoddy job, some do a fantastic job. If one is a Christian, and God is leading them to homeschool, they have a great advantage regardless of their backgrounds. There are also many excellent curricula available (and there are some that I wouldn't touch!!), there are satellite schools where parents can get aid with questions if stuck, tests are graded, report cards issued, etc. Many homeschooling families make sure they at least offer all of the academic classes that the state offers in a public school.

You are right, it is an injustice to many children, but the injustice many times lies in the fact that the parents are not willing to work at it! I know of people who say they homeschool, and yet their kids play all day, working on academics when they want to - and even whichever academics they choose. This is actually called "unschooling" and really gripes me. The idea is that a child will read when they want to...even if it's at 12 years old. My son was reading at 3 (simple words...), and we shared a lot of quality time with books and then when he completely read on his own (by 5), he devoured books (still does). If we had waited until 12, I shudder to think of all the wonderful children's books he would have missed!

Again, if parents believe that God is leading them to homeschool, they can do a magnificent job, if they work at it (and, as anyone here who has homeschooled or is homeschooling can attest - it is work!!!).

Annie - have you ever heard of Apologia? Had we homeschooled in high school, we were going to use this (only high school had been developed when we were looking into it). http://highschoolscience.com/

This page is neat! http://www.apologiaonline.com/sqotw/

[Annie]

Annie - have you ever heard of Apologia? Had we homeschooled in high school, we were going to use this (only high school had been developed when we were looking into it). http://highschoolscience.com/

This page is neat! http://www.apologiaonline.com/sqotw/

Thank you, LuAnne. Yes, we love Apologia. I've used the astronomy and botany books for my children in elementary school. I will certainly check out their high school curriculum when the time comes. Thanks for the link.

[John81]

While what you say sounds nice it is impossible for children to have a habitually right heart until they are saved, and a spanking doesn't EVER make a wrong heart a right heart even then. You can't force a child to have a right heart no matter how much you would like to, it must be their choice. Spanking a child for "loving themselves more than they love others" is misguided in my humble opinion, because it isn't something a spanking can correct. Telling a child that you are spanking him or her because of the condition of their heart teaches them little beyond how to respond to get out of a spanking. Spank for the transgression of the law, try very hard to teach them why the law is good, and teach the child that he or she will continue to struggle with the law unless they choose of their own free will to have a right heart about it.


Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


The real purpose of spankings is to show children unlawful actions brings serious consequences. The parents law serves the same purpose as Gods law, to show the standard, and the wages of sin which rebels suffer. If children learn that early on it will be easier on them later in life.


1 Timothy 1:9-10 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Wilchbla]

It's been done. I know of a family with virtually no education who homeschooled their children. Their oldest boy is now attending Pensacola Christian College majoring in political science. When you get to a tough area you just hire a tutor like my brother did for his kids.