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Wow! Kudos To This Public School Principal...


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I remember when I was in elementary school my father saying to the principal (in front of me) that if he had any behavior problems with me he had his permission to spank me and then tell my dad and I'd get it again at home. That pretty much sent me the message not to good off in school.

With that said, I'm totally against any kind of spanking of students in any kind of public education setting. Too many variables and it is the parents responsibility......not someone elses.

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Well at that school, the parents have to give permission for it to happen at all. Also, the parents are given the option to come to the school and spank. If they delegate that authority to the principal, that is their prerogative.

I admire this principal for having the courage to do this, all the while maintaining compassion for the students.

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With that said' date=' I'm totally against any kind of spanking of students in any kind of public education setting. Too many variables and it is the parents responsibility......not someone elses.[/quote']
I think I agree with you here, trc. I've given this issue some thought, having been both a classroom teacher and a parent. I know that teachers are supposedly acting in loco parentis when they spank a child. IOW, the parents have delegated the authority to administer that sort of discipline to the school administration...which is fine, I guess (kind of a biblical "loophole"), but certainly not preferable. The Bible really never gives anyone but parents the instruction to discipline their kids in this way.

When I was a 21-year-old fourth grade teacher, fresh from college, "knowing everything" but having zero experience, I had to spank 10 out of my 30 students (for things like lying, cheating, etc.). I remember standing in the principal's office, holding a paddle for the very first time, facing someone else's crying child, and thinking: "I have no idea how to use this thing. How hard do I hit? How far back do I need to swing my arm?" etc. Was the discipline effective? Probably. Was it right? I don't know.
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Corporal punishment in the Public School system is still VERY legal in the State of Ohio. Most people are oblivious to this fact.

Thanks for sharing... Bakers. Amen to him! Yes... some students need it. =)

~ Molly

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True, but it would seem that the Bible never gives us the idea that we should be leaving our children to someone else's care and instruction for half of their waking hours 5 days a week, either.
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I see your point...but it all goes back to what I believe the purpose of a spanking is. I do not see a spanking (as described biblically) as punishment, but as part of an ongoing, loving relationship we personally, as a mom and dad, have established with our child. I don't see it as something anyone outside this relationship should do. The school officials do not have such a relationship with my child. (Of course my children are homeschooled, but I'm talking about if they did attend school.) I'm not saying it is wrong for others (not mom and dad) to spank a child; I'm just saying I wouldn't want anyone else spanking my children, and I can understand why other parents wouldn't want that, either. I don't think the biblical purpose of a spanking is punishment, but part of a discipleship process between two parties who both recognize it to be such. That's why I would not be in favor of spanking in public schools. They abuse the purpose of spanking. (I'm sure it gets results, but that in itself is not enough to make it right--just pragmatic.) I would be more in favor of a Christian school, where at least the goal is spiritual growth and biblical character development, to employ what is called "corporal punishment" (I don't even agree with the name) than I would be a public school doing so.
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I would give Corporal Punishment a medal but' date=' he can't be found here in Ohio. MIA.[/quote']

lol... 1Tim. He is legal, though. It is sad that many people don't know this to be fact. :) They haven't known it for years... and they wonder what is wrong with the public school system in OH? Just because they took the actual paddle down off the wall... doesn't mean it isn't still in OH law. It is legal and people are oblivious to it. :sad

God bless ~

Molly
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One of the reasons that most people don't realize that it's still legal in many states to spank children at school is the media. All the hype about abuse (and really, I know that it goes on, so I'm not making light of it) puts a scare into people, and with all the psychobabble about it hurting a child's psyche...a majority of people in America no longer believe that spanking is necessary for aiding in instilling self-discipline. Time outs and lost privileges are the answer...even as we see the poor results all around us!!!

As far as spanking in the public schools....this principal obviously has the right attitude. He isn't spanking for the joy of inflicting pain. He doesn't enjoy it. And he has parental permission. Parental permission is all that he needs to be Biblical about it, even though that wasn't a point in the article.

The father is the head of the home...and if he chooses to put his child(ren) in any school, that is his right. And if he chooses to give permission for that school to administer discipline, that is also his right, as head of his home. The Bible may not say that others can spank, but if the father delegates it is within the sphere of his responsibility.

I think homeschooling is wonderful. We did it for several years, and I missed it greatly, as did our son, when we put him in school. But it was a decision made by my husband, who believed it was what God wanted for us at the time. And part of that was giving permission for our son to be spanked. We could have opted for my hubby to come in and spank. But we trust(ed) the principal and don't regret any of the spankings our son got. And my son has a very strong attachment to the principal as a result.

When our son was younger, I baby-sat. One of the conditions of the babysitting was that I could spank if need be. Why? They were in my home, and I wasn't going to have my home (when I say I, I mean my hubby, too) torn up by kids who wouldn't listen to me. Most of the kids I babysat were with me more than they were with their parents. And I look at them as adults today and see the results of my aid in their rearing. Many of them make me proud...and many of them love me still.

Betcha those kids the principal has to spank love him.

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Bravo to your post, LuAnne!!

When my (our) son was in the fifth grade... he was having a tough time. That was also a very rough year for me, as a teacher... too. My son did not see his biological dad for almost a whole year (not by mine, my hubby's or his choice... either.) My husband (Joe) is his step-dad.

Anyhoo... he would walk home from school with some friends to my in-laws house that year. I would pick him up from work, shortly after he got there. My MIL had to paddle him a couple of times. She told me about it... he didn't. :lol: "Kudos" to her! He needed it! They have a very warm, loving, relationship to this day.

In Christ ~

Molly

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As far as spanking in the public schools....this principal obviously has the right attitude. He isn't spanking for the joy of inflicting pain. He doesn't enjoy it. And he has parental permission. Parental permission is all that he needs to be Biblical about it' date=' even though that wasn't a point in the article.[/quote']
Just to clear something up...I didn't want anyone to think that by using the word "abuse," I was talking about the attitude of the school official giving the corporal punishment, as in, they are abusing the kids. I was opining that they are abusing the purpose of spanking by using it as a punishment instead of a discipleship tool. IMO, spanking is not meant to punish, but to further one's spiritual growth within an ongoing, close, loving relationship (parent/child). Again, I understand the concept of in loco parentis. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is "wrong" for a parent to allow someone outside the family to spank their child. I'm just saying that I cannot be sure it is right, and I am not comfortable with it for that reason.
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Properly used, I have no problem with spankings in school. In days gone by, the teachers and principles tended to be locals that were known within the community. That's not always true these days. While those who ran the school once tended to hold the same values as the community, this often isn't true today.

I wouldn't give permission for a stranger to spank my child. If the teacher/principal were known to be man of charactor by me and that I could trust their judgement in such matters I would agree to such.

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Annie - I understand what you are saying, but don't agree completely. I do agree that spanking is to further spiritual growth, and is part of discipleship. But I also believe that it is punishment. There are two aspects to discipline: the disciplinary, or teaching time, and the punishment time. Both are necessary. The Bible tells us that the Lord chastens those whom He loves. Chastening is punishment...

As I said (and I know you agree with this!!), the hubby makes decisions for his own family - and if your hubby doesn't want anyone else spanking your kids but the two of you, that is certainly his right!!! And I would not advocate that just anyone could spank, either! I think only those who are in a position of authority given by the father should be - babysitter (I'm not talking the 12 year old who has the child for an hour and a half...I mean someone who provides daycare), principal or teacher who is designated for such, grandparent.

When my grandfather died, my son (who was 8 at the time) and I went to WA. My hubby couldn't go. So, he talked with my brother and asked him to administer any swats that were needed. My brother agreed. He had to spank him only once. It broke both my son's and my brother's hearts that it was necessary...and they have been extremely close ever since.
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Chastening is punishment...

What makes you define "chastening" as "punishment?" I strongly disagree that God "punishes" us for our sin. Christ took all of the punishment for our sin on Himself on the cross. Punishment means a consequence imposed as a "payment" for wrongdoing. By definition (and etymology), punishment is purely punitive. It's like paying a fine for a crime. It is not part of a discipleship-type relationship; it is a cold transaction between two parties that do not have a relationship with each other. Like: do the crime, do the time, sentence handed down, free to go when payment is fulfilled, end of story. That's punishment, not chastening. Chastening implies an ongoing relationship, negative consequences imposed for the purposes of changing the wrongdoer's heart, not just for getting him to "pay" for what he did, or understand why it was wrong, or make him want to avoid doing it in the future only because he is afraid of experiencing the punishment again. Punishment appeals to fear; chastening appeals to love.

As I said (and I know you agree with this!!), the hubby makes decisions for his own family - and if your hubby doesn't want anyone else spanking your kids but the two of you, that is certainly his right!!! And I would not advocate that just anyone could spank, either! I think only those who are in a position of authority given by the father should be - babysitter (I'm not talking the 12 year old who has the child for an hour and a half...I mean someone who provides daycare), principal or teacher who is designated for such, grandparent.

You're right; I do agree that the husband/father makes decisions for his own family. It's not that my hubby doesn't want anyone else spanking; it is that we aren't sure that spankings should (biblically) be given by anyone who is not in an ongoing discipleship relationship with our kids. We don't think it is appropriate to view spanking as a punishment. I don't want my children to think that when I spank them, they are "paying for" their wrongdoing.

I think that's how it is viewed (as punishment) in the case of a public or Christian school situation in which the child may never have even met the principal (or maybe has exchanged pleasantries with him once or twice), and is suddenly confronted with him wielding a paddle.
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Well, we obviously disagree on what punishment is. Punishment is not payment for wrongdoing - it is a consequence of wrong doing. We all reap what we sow - and God does chasten us in punishment when we, as His children, continue in sin. Is it payment? No - no one even hinted that it was!!! It is consequence.

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Well' date=' we obviously disagree on what punishment is. Punishment is not payment for wrongdoing - it is a consequence of wrong doing. We all reap what we sow - and God does chasten us in punishment when we, as His children, continue in sin. Is it payment? No - no one even hinted that it was!!! It is consequence.[/quote']

LuAnne, I'm just going by the definitions of the word punish, as listed below. Can you honestly say that this is what God does to us? What about Scripture? Is the word punishment ever used in the Bible to describe how our loving Father deals with His children? Or is it more descriptive of how He deals with unrepentant sinners?



Contrast the definitions of punishment with the definitions of chasten (below):


Chastening has a purpose other than inflicting a penalty. Its focus is on changing the heart, not merely on altering outward behavior. The type of corporal punishment imposed in schools is focused on behavior, not spiritual/moral/heart development. It (punishment) appeals to fear, not love (as chastening does).
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When someone shows me a verse from the Scriptures that gives direction to parents to allow someone other than they to carry out a spanking on their children or where God says that someone other than the parent will answer for their child's upbringing; then I will agree with it.

I have never seen that in the Scriptures, therefore to me it is against God to do such. Admittedly, I could have missed that in the Scriptures, therefore am open to correction.

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When someone shows me a verse from the Scriptures that gives direction to parents to allow someone other than they to carry out a spanking on their children or where God says that someone other than the parent will answer for their child's upbringing; then I will agree with it.

Are you saying that parents can never delegate their authority to, say, a Sunday school teacher, or babysitter, or family member, etc.? Scripture doesn't say they can. When it comes down to it, the Scripture never specifically tells mothers to spank. Is the silence of Scripture always the same thing as prohibition? If it is, then you are in disobedience every time you leave your child with anyone else. IOW, you'd have to be with your child bodily 24/7.

I have never seen that in the Scriptures, therefore to me it is against God to do such. Admittedly, I could have missed that in the Scriptures, therefore am open to correction.


My objection to the use of "corporal punishment" in schools has more to do with the purpose of spanking than with your reasoning here. Biblically, spanking is to be used for chastening, within a discipleship context, not for punishment.
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And then there's this definition:

In operant conditioning, a consequence to a behavior in which something is added to or removed from the situation to make the behavior less likely


I guess it depends on where you look for meanings of words. :Green

trc - I'll throw it back at you: is there any scripture that forbids parents from delegating authority to spank?
The father is the head of the home, and he decides who spanks his kids.
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And then there's this definition:


But we were talking about punishment vs. chastisement, not consequences (which is a much more general term than both of the others). You said that punishment is the same as chastisement, but it isn't. (I'm willing to be wrong on this; show me a definition of punishment that doesn't refer to payment/penalty, or something comparable.)

"Operant conditioning" is, I'm guessing, a psychological term, a la B.F. Skinner. It (conditioning) is focused on changing behavior, not the heart (which is given away at the end of the definition you gave). So, of course, the kind of consequences this paragraph is describing are different than the kind I employ as a parent. I'm not trying to "condition" my children; I'm trying to develop Christlikeness in them and nurture their spirituality. The consequences I use are not targeted at the behavior, but at the heart--the motivation for the behavior. The lesson I desire for my child to learn when I employ this sort of consequence is not this: "Never act in this way again," but this: "You have a heart problem. Let's identify it and confess that problem to God and ask for His help in overcoming it. You will always find forgiveness (from both God and me) when you come humbly to us in confession. If your heart is not willing to follow instruction, I will have to give these consequences again." It's all about the heart, not the behavior.

Generally speaking (outside any specific realm), a "consequence" simply means, "something that happens as a result of something else." (Didn't check the dictionary on this one, but we can all agree on this, right?) As far as our discussion goes, "consequences" can be used in a variety of ways, including to punish someone or to chasten someone. The difference is in how the consequences are reasoned, presented, and applied. In a school setting, the object is not chastening, but punishment. The focus is behavior, not spiritual development.
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Huge difference in asking someone to oversee the well being of your child and asking/trusting them to know where to draw the line in how hard to spank (hit) them' date=' etc..........[/quote']

Right, but you were talking "Scripturally," not practically. Your argument was that since the Scriptures don't "give permission," they must be prohibiting it. My point was simply that we do things all the time (in parenting) that the Scriptures do not "give permission" to do, like leaving kids with babysitters or other "authorities."
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"This is not a practice for the 21st century," says Nadine Block, executive director of the Center for Effective Discipline in Ohio. "Maybe for the 18th century. An atmosphere of fear is not going to increase learning. Maybe temporarily. But over time, it does not work."


The pathogenic response above is a virus enabler for the violence epidemic. Anyway it's making me :gross:

If you could "temporarily" decrease the aberrant behavior, say for 8 hours per day; I believe learning would have to increase permanently.

I have no simpaththy for these pstcho-babble people anyway. There methods have failed and should be put in time out, out of time.

"I was spanked as a child," says Deniece Williams, 36, who has a son at John C. "I want to go a different route."


She wasn't spanked enough...just my opinion.

The school's mental-health counselor, Heather Hatchett, is equally concerned. "I'm not crazy about it," she says. "A lot of these kids come from violent homes, and kids see this as another violent act."


Yes, a lot of children are abused and I'm sure the number goes up as society is further removed from God's authority. Children could be made to see a form of consistent, caring, corporal discipline, if there were an authority at school but, instead they get time out. Truth be known some probably sleep through the time out and reenact the violence they find at home on the streets each evening. If you get teen agers tired enough each day...they will sleep at night.
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From Webster's 1828:

PUN'ISHMENT, n. Any pain or suffering inflicted on a person for a crime or offense, by the authority to which the offender is subject, either by the constitution of God or of civil society. The punishment of the faults and offenses of children by the parent, is by virtue of the right of government with which the parent is invested by God himself. This species of punishment is chastisement or correction. The punishment of crimes against the laws is inflicted by the supreme power of the state in virtue of the right of government, vested in the prince or legislature. The right of punishment belongs only to persons clothed with authority. Pain, loss or evil willfully inflicted on another for his crimes or offenses by a private unauthorized person, is revenge rather than punishment.
Some punishments consist in exile or transportation, others in loss of liberty by imprisonment; some extend to confiscation by forfeiture of lands and goods, others induce a disability of holding offices, of being heirs and the like.
Divine punishments are doubtless designed to secure obedience to divine laws, and uphold the moral order of created intelligent beings.
The rewards and punishments of another life, which the almighty has established as the enforcements of his law, are of weight enough to determine the choice against whatever pleasure or pain this life can show.


CHASTISEMENT, n. Correction; punishment; pain inflicted for punishment and correction, either by stripes or otherwise.


From wiki:
Castigation (from the Latin castigatio), chastisement (via the French ch
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Sorry' date=' Annie, but chastisement and punishment are the same thing. Behavior is dealt with; the heart is dealt with; outer control is imposed to aid in bringing self-control and to aid in bringing the sufferer to a clear understanding of right and wrong.[/quote']
LuAnne, when I asked for a definition, I didn't expect you to pull out an almost 200-year-old dictionary! :lol: The meanings, nuances, and connotations of words change over time for sure. (The meanings of punishment and chastisement are still different, according to your Webster's, anyway. He implies that chastisement "goes further" than just general punishment in that it has a more specific purpose ("making chaste") and is the "specific species/kind" of punishment that parents use toward children. I can live with that delineation, although it doesn't agree with modern usage, in which punishment always carries the idea of a penalty.)

Definitions aside, you still haven't answered my question: Is the following a description of what our Father does to us, His children? Or does He have a greater purpose in mind? (I know you believe He has a greater purpose: the more specific "chastisement" your Webster's indicates is the proper way for a parent to disciple children.)The reason I am asking, though, is that I believe that corporal punishment, as described in the OP, does do these things (below), and does not "make chaste," as true chastisement would. The school officials in question are simply regulating behavior, not chastising/discipling. Call it what you want to, but it is not biblical chastisement. We know that the biblical purpose of spanking is chastisement (a word Scripture uses over and over again in reference to child discipline), not (just) punishment (a word that, to my knowledge, Scripture never uses in the parent/child context, but numerous times in the context of condemned sinners).

1. to subject to pain, loss, confinement, death, etc., as a penalty for some offense, transgression, or fault: to punish a criminal.
2. to inflict a penalty for (an offense, fault, etc.): to punish theft.
3. to handle severely or roughly, as in a fight.
4. to put to painful exertion, as a horse in racing.
5. Informal. to make a heavy inroad on; deplete: to punish a quart of whiskey.

Hey, going back to definitions, I still contend that, according to how the words are used in Scripture, there is a marked difference between punishment and chastisement. It would actually be pretty enlightening, IMO, if someone compared all of the usages in Scripture of all forms of the term punishment and all forms of the word chastisement. I'm pretty certain that the study would reveal a pattern of punishment being used in reference to what happens to the wicked/lost, and chastisement being used as a description of what happens in a parent/child relationship (including our Father's relationship with His children). It would be interesting to find out...
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Thanks for laughing at my usage of Webster's 1828, Annie. It may be an old book, but it's accurate. And his definition of chastisement uses the word punishment. As a synonym, no less. Hmmm...but maybe he just isn't as smart as some of us in the 21st century. After all, that was a long time ago. He may "imply" that it goes further than punishment in your reading of it, but the plain fact of the matter is that they are synonymous.

But you ignored the wiki definition...which is current and secular. And says the same thing.

The list you gave isn't all there is to punishment.

Here's a 1911 defition of corporal punishment...yikes! It's not current, and it comes from the UK -

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT, chastisement inflicted by one person on the body (corpus) of another.


From 2001 - also from Scotland. Too old? Too far away?
PHYSICAL CHASTISEMENT OF CHILDREN
Changing public attitudes towards corporal punishment and a lack of clarity in
Scottish Law relating to the physical punishment of children...
Interesting interchange of terms, eh?

Malta, 2007
Corporal punishment is lawful in the home. Parents and legal guardians are legally obliged to provide adequate care, protection and guidance for their children, but ?reasonable chastisement? is permitted in common law and the Criminal Code (1854, amended 2006) recognises ?lawful correction? (article 229). Article 132 of the Civil Code (1870, amended 2006) states: ?(1) A child shall obey his parents in all that is permitted by law.? Article 154 (1)(a) states that a parent may be deprived of the rights of parental authority ?if the parent, exceeding the bounds of reasonable chastisement, ill-treats the child, or neglects his education?.
Hmmm...interchangeable here, too.
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Thanks for laughing at my usage of Webster's 1828' date=' Annie. It may be an old book, but it's accurate. And his definition of chastisement uses the word [i']punishment. As a synonym, no less. Hmmm...but maybe he just isn't as smart as some of us in the 21st century. After all, that was a long time ago. He may "imply" that it goes further than punishment in your reading of it, but the plain fact of the matter is that they are synonymous.

But you ignored the wiki definition...which is current and secular. And says the same thing.

The list you gave isn't all there is to punishment.

Yes, I understand we can quibble over definitions all day...But the million-dollar question is this: how does Scripture use these terms, especially as regards the parent/child relationship? Is the word punish used even once in that context? I'm asking b/c I don't know for sure, but I have a hunch it is not used in Scripture in this way.

And the question with regard to the OP is this: does corporal punishment, administered by public school officials, fall within the biblical idea of the kind of chastisement used in the parent/child relationship? If it does not, then the officials, ostensibly operating in loco parentis, are not administering the right kind of discipline. They are merely regulating behavior, which we all know is not the purpose of God's chastisement of us, nor of the chastisement we administer to our children. IOW, it totally misses the biblical boat of the purpose of spanking, and is therefore unbiblical.
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And the question with regard to the OP is this: does corporal punishment, administered by public school officials, fall within the biblical idea of the kind of chastisement used in the parent/child relationship?



Galatians 4:1-2 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Multiple scriptures establish that it was acceptable to administer corporal punishment to a servant in those days, and Paul states that the teacher pupil relationship was like the servant master relationship. I think it reasonable to conclude that it would be biblical for a teacher to possess the authority to administer corporal punishment to disobedient students. Culturally such is no longer acceptable though, and since there is no biblical command that a teacher must give corporal punishment to disobedient students we are free to deffer to culture. We are not free to do that in the case of our own children however, scripture is quite clear on that aspect.
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And the question with regard to the OP is this: does corporal punishment, administered by public school officials, fall within the biblical idea of the kind of chastisement used in the parent/child relationship? If it does not, then the officials, ostensibly operating in loco parentis, are not administering the right kind of discipline. They are merely regulating behavior, which we all know is not the purpose of God's chastisement of us, nor of the chastisement we administer to our children. IOW, it totally misses the biblical boat of the purpose of spanking, and is therefore unbiblical.


So you don't regulate your children's behavior with your admistration of punishment/chastisement? Of course you do! That's part of working on their hearts. Teaching them the difference between right and wrong. It is not the only aspect, but it is very definitely one. Otherwise, God would have simply told us to talk to them, rather than "beat them with a rod" (please note - I don't believe God is meaning abuse, nor am I advocating it...simply quoting scripture). He said both the rod and reproof drive away the foolishness bound into a child's heart. Both aspects of punishment (or chastisement, or whatever you want to call it!).

If the parents of a child give permission to the principal to spank, they are within their biblical rights of parenting. So it might change the child's behavior at school. That's such a terrible thing, isn't it? That's one of the points of discipline. Changing behavior. Yes, I know true change doesn't come unless and until the heart is changed - but spanking helps to bring that about.
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So you don't regulate your children's behavior with your admistration of punishment/chastisement? Of course you do!

As I said before, my purpose is not to regulate their behavior...whereas that is the only purpose of corporal punishment in the public school setting. The kind of spanking that is administered merely to regulate behavior is not the right kind of spanking; it falls dreadfully short of the biblical purpose for spanking, which is motivated by a desire for heart change, and is given in love (not just "in emotional control"), not just to make the child afraid of misbehaving again. It sends the wrong message to the child when he is summoned into the principal's office, takes his licks for punishment, is told not to do it again, and then leaves.

That's part of working on their hearts.

But it's not the only part. (And I'm not even sure that "regulating behavior" is really part of working on their hearts. When I spank my children, the focus is not on "the behavior," but what "the behavior" reveals about what is in their hearts. They don't get spanked for lying; they get spanked for failing to love the truth. They don't get spanked for disobeying; they get spanked for wanting their own way over God's way. They don't get spanked for grabbing a toy; they get spanked for loving themselves more than they love others.) Regardless of whether you agree with the preceding parenthetical material, I think you'd agree at least that merely regulating behavior is not enough, and is not the sole purpose of spanking. In the public school mentioned, I can't believe that anything else is happening besides a regulation of behavior. And that's not how I would want my children to view spanking, or to employ spanking with their children someday.

Teaching them the difference between right and wrong. It is not the only aspect, but it is very definitely one. Otherwise, God would have simply told us to talk to them, rather than "beat them with a rod" (please note - I don't believe God is meaning abuse, nor am I advocating it...simply quoting scripture). He said both the rod and reproof drive away the foolishness bound into a child's heart. Both aspects of punishment (or chastisement, or whatever you want to call it!).

I agree with all of this. But again, the biblical focus is not on the behavior, but on the heart issues. That's where corporal punishment in a public school setting fails the child. It makes him think it's all about behavior, at least in that relationship, at school, where he spends most of his waking hours. He is conditioned to believe: "It doesn't matter what I'm thinking/believing; as long as I look sharp and behave myself and don't give any lip, I'm OK with the principal (who my mom and dad say is standing in for them while I'm at school)." No heart changes are being encouraged or made, because that's not the administrator's goal in spanking. He's just trying to keep order by regulating behavior. And it probably works. It's just not biblical, IMO. And the kid grows up thinking it's all about behavior.

Another disturbing statement (which only bears out the fact that the corporal punishment under discussion is the wrong kind) was from one of the students' dads, who gave the administrator permission to "whip his kid's butt." Sad. This isn't even close to biblical chastisement.

If the parents of a child give permission to the principal to spank, they are within their biblical rights of parenting. So it might change the child's behavior at school. That's such a terrible thing, isn't it? That's one of the points of discipline. Changing behavior. Yes, I know true change doesn't come unless and until the heart is changed - but spanking helps to bring that about.

Behavioral change without heart change is hypocrisy, plain and simple. Sure, I expect that my discipline will affect my children's behavior, but the change will come from the inside out, b/c I deal with the heart issues, not the behavior. Improved behavior is merely a positive side effect; heart change is the reason for it. If my child's behavior changes, but his heart does not, then my discipline has not been effective, and the behavior change has nothing to do with God's purpose for him, or His working in his life, and I would rather the behavior not change, so that I can tell that he still needs work. I believe that is what is happening with PS corporal punishment. Behavior may change, but the child reaps no net gain, since he is no closer to God as a result, and has only gotten the message that if he can just control his outward actions, he's off the hook--no worries.

Thanks for laughing at my usage of Webster's 1828' date=' Annie.[/quote']
HC, I didn't mean to hit a nerve. Please forgive me. The "laughing" emoticon wasn't meant sarcastically. I was genuinely tickled that in a discussion about word meaning, you referred to a 200-yr-old dictionary. Not that Webster was "wrong"...just that word meanings and connotations do change and evolve over time. Yes, I know you quoted wiki as well...
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