Billy Graham

[JerryNumbers]

Billy Graham

Attended Reformed Presbyterian Church as a youth with his parents & while attend it he claimed to have been saved.

The Presbyterian Church claims one is saved because of grace, yet they hold to lots of the same teaching of the RRC & Lutheran, that this saving grace is extended though baptizing & the Lord's Supper.

I had been told that he grew up as a Baptist, that was not true, it seems his 1st experience with Baptist was the 1st church he was pastor of was 1st Baptist Missionary Church of Western Springs in IL.

Now I understand where he was coming from in accepting false teaching about being saved, & joining together will the Catholics, Pentecostals, Lutherans, & so on.

[irishman]

Yes, Presbyterians are Catholic, but not "Roman Catholic" same with Lutheran and Episcopalian. They merely broke away from popish control, but kept most of their false doctrine.

I believe Billy Sunday was Presbyterian too, and he had some funny ideas. J. Vernon Mcgee also.

Edited April 15, 2012 by irishman

[Covenanter]

The Presbyterian statement of faith - the Westminster Confession - is almost identical with the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith.

The principle differences from Baptists concern:
baptism - of believers by immersion, rather than infants, optionally by sprinkling;
church government of churches by a presbytery of elders, rather than independency;
and the role of civil magistrates - the net effect being that where possible Presbyterians become the established church - as in Scotland & Geneva.

In England the Presbyterians & other non-conformists suffered harsh restrictions after the restoration of Charles II in 1660, & were expelled from their pulpits & suffered serious penalties if they continued to preach. The Ps largely departed from their doctrine by 1700 & many became unitarian. Happily the Methodist revival called the people back to the Gospel. The Baptists never had a national influence.

About 30 years ago the English Ps & Congregationalists (Independents) merged to form the United Reformed Church. The (dis)unity was such that the Congs divided into 4 - one faction merging, & one maintaining the faith & 2 more or less modernist. (The Evangelical Congregational Fellowship.) There were more in the Cong church before the merger than in the United Reformed.

[John81]

One thing is certain today in America, the Presbys of today are nothing like those of a couple hundred years ago. The same could be said of the Methodists, Episcopals and others.

[JerryNumbers]

Yes, Presbyterians are Catholic, but not "Roman Catholic" same with Lutheran and Episcopalian. They merely broke away from popish control, but kept most of their false doctrine.

I believe Billy Sunday was Presbyterian too, and he had some funny ideas. J. Vernon Mcgee also.

I've read several of Billy Sunday's sermons, from them it seemed that he did not seem to be as liberal as Mr. Graham. I will try & do a bit more reading on Mr. Sunday.

And sad to say, the Presbyterians did bring much of the baggage of the RCC with them, as did Luther.

[Invicta]

The early English Baptists came out of the Presbyterians when they returned from exile in the Netherlands in the 1640s. The only thing in which they differed at first was in the matter of baptism. The congregationals were from the Independents, who included those of The Countess of Huntindon's Connexion. Samuel Eyles Pierce founded the first baptist church in Faversham, about 8 miles from here in 1818. He had been a preacher of "her ladyship." My previous pastor who was a baptist historian told me that Eyles was not a baptist, although near the end of his memoires, Eyles remarked, "..before I was a baptist."

William Huntington was also one of her ladyship's preachers and although not a baptist, some baptists walked miles to hear him preach in the early 1800s.

[No Nicolaitans]

[Covenanter]

And sad to say, the Presbyterians did bring much of the baggage of the RCC with them, as did Luther.

The Ps I am in contact with are reformed & strongly anti-RC. My principle objections to the Westminster Confession are infant baptism, which they justify from Scripture; & the concept of a national church rather than independency, with the civil authorities having responsibility to maintain order in the church. The tendency is to look to the OT & regulations for Israel.

Those things are not "RCC baggage" - can you list what you mean.

I understand Billy G justified his ecumenism by a desire to preach to as many as possible, including RCs & liberals who need the gospel, & so co-operated with them. We would not approve that attitude, but to what extent sinners heard the Gospel & were saved in spite of their church allegiance, only God knows.

[JerryNumbers]

The Ps I am in contact with are reformed & strongly anti-RC. My principle objections to the Westminster Confession are infant baptism, which they justify from Scripture; & the concept of a national church rather than independency, with the civil authorities having responsibility to maintain order in the church. The tendency is to look to the OT & regulations for Israel.

Those things are not "RCC baggage" - can you list what you mean.

I understand Billy G justified his ecumenism by a desire to preach to as many as possible, including RCs & liberals who need the gospel, & so co-operated with them. We would not approve that attitude, but to what extent sinners heard the Gospel & were saved in spite of their church allegiance, only God knows.

What your asking for is easily found in this day & time, & its seems your trying to defend him, before doing that you need to check him out thoroughly.

They do believe in works base salvation, & most of it comes from the RCC as has been stated by more than one person.

You can't justify not standing, supporting, all of God's truths, & that's exactly what Mr. Graham has been doing for many years.

[John81]

What your asking for is easily found in this day & time, & its seems your trying to defend him, before doing that you need to check him out thoroughly.

They do believe in works base salvation, & most of it comes from the RCC as has been stated by more than one person.

You can't justify not standing, supporting, all of God's truths, & that's exactly what Mr. Graham has been doing for many years.

One of the worst aspects of Billy Graham's yoking with the RCC and other false and watered down churches was that it gave an air of legitimacy to them, leading many who would have never have considered such wayward churches to think of them as sound.

Along these same lines is the practice of Billy Graham to send all who came forward and made any mention of being Catholic or having some connection to some wayward church, to refer them back to these churches.

No doubt some were saved over the years through Billy Graham's preaching, yet how many had their growth in Christ stunted by being shuttled into unsound churches and false religions? How many were not saved through a Billy Graham event yet went forward to learn more only to be pointed to a church which didn't preach the Gospel?

Any time we trust in our own efforts there will be trouble and work for the Lord will be hampered. While it may seem right and smart to yoke with the RCC and wayward churches in order to preach to more people, what is truly right and smart is obeying the Word of God and trusting Him with the results.

[Covenanter]

I have never supported BG's ministry, though my ONLY visit to Wembley Stadium was to hear him in the 50s - coaches were running from all over the country to his meetings.

The point is that despite the excellence of IFB churches & similar, probably most people are converted through churches & ministries that are less than ideal. WE were guided into sound Gospel churches from wherever we were converted, but there are many Christians in unsound churches. We need to welcome those who do come to us, at least initially without disparaging the preachers through whom they came to faith.

[Invicta]

My uncle, aunt and one of my cousins were converted at an early BG rally in London. They were anglicans, but left to join an evangelical baptist church. I believe my uncle fell away later but my Aunt and cousin went on with the Lord. Another son was converted at the church they now attended, and his children were also saved, so the work of BG was not all failure.

I heard BG in his early ministry and:
Graham preached Christ crucified. 1Co 1:23
He preached repentance. Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19

However, he did not recognize the absolute evil of the church of Rome, the Mystery Babylon of the Apocalypse, the harlot church, as opposed to the true church, the Bride, the New Jerusalem.

[JerryNumbers]

At a Billy Graham Crusade.

Mr. Graham preaches his message, them an invitation is given. They have several trained counselors for those who come forward. During their brief training they have to agree, when someone comes forward to them, to ask if they have a preference, if they state Catholic or whatever, if they are Baptist they have to send that person to a Catholic or whatever counselors.

Mr. Graham will accept pastors, or Church Workers from almost any church to be counselors at his crusades, in fact he sends people ahead to try & get all of the local churches to join in with him & support his crusade, for that gives him credibility, an insures a larger crowd of people, with more people supporting him with their money, & of course, that insures many will leave with a false hope.

Which, if a person goes to a Catholic counselor, & their preference is Baptist, that is great, for likely they will be truly counseled on the one & only way a person can be saved. Yet if they go to one of the other counselors, they will likely be told the wrong ways.

Yet, the Catholics are not the only other one that teaches works based salvation, most organized churches teach some sort of work based salvation. So in effect, most that go forward at a Mr. Graham Crusade will be taught a false hope of being saved, its harder to win someone to Christ that has a false hope than one that has no hope.

Yet, the Baptist that joins in this service, just by being there, is saying, I approve of everything that is preached, taught, & or done at this crusade.

[John81]

I have never supported BG's ministry, though my ONLY visit to Wembley Stadium was to hear him in the 50s - coaches were running from all over the country to his meetings.

The point is that despite the excellence of IFB churches & similar, probably most people are converted through churches & ministries that are less than ideal. WE were guided into sound Gospel churches from wherever we were converted, but there are many Christians in unsound churches. We need to welcome those who do come to us, at least initially without disparaging the preachers through whom they came to faith.

The Billy Graham of the 50s was much more biblically sound than the Billy Graham of any of the decades after that.

No doubt many come to Christ outside IFB churches, as I did, and there are true Christians in non-IFB churches, but I would guess the number of true Christians in many of these churches is far less than what is reported or even believed.

I agree that we should not disparage preachers that may have helped someone come to Christ but we should kindly and biblically tell the truth about them.

[John81]

My uncle, aunt and one of my cousins were converted at an early BG rally in London. They were anglicans, but left to join an evangelical baptist church. I believe my uncle fell away later but my Aunt and cousin went on with the Lord. Another son was converted at the church they now attended, and his children were also saved, so the work of BG was not all failure.

I heard BG in his early ministry and:
Graham preached Christ crucified. 1Co 1:23
He preached repentance. Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19

However, he did not recognize the absolute evil of the church of Rome, the Mystery Babylon of the Apocalypse, the harlot church, as opposed to the true church, the Bride, the New Jerusalem.

Billy Graham early on preached the Gospel. As time went by he watered down his message and eventually stated that there are other ways for people to get to heaven.

Very early on Billy Graham kept separate from the RCC but he obviously didn't recognize their evil because it didn't take long before he was reaching out to the RCC and then yoking with them, even sending anyone who came forward and said they were a Catholic back to the RCC.