Suicide and salvation?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

In Romans 5:3, we read:

Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

We glory in tribulation.... sound suicidal? I don't think so!

Who glories in tribulation? We!
Who is Paul referring to when he says "we"? Those who are justified! (Romans 5:1)

There is no evidence in Scripture that even remotely suggests that a child of God will, or can, commit suicide. There is enough Scripture to prove that the child of God will endure hardships though.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Believe me, Jerry... I am not Catholic, nor do I hold to Catholic doctrines.

Matter of fact, I am currently on another board debating with a Catholic on the idol worship of Mary to the point of calling her ever-virgin, praying to her, assigning the title Queen of Heaven, etc., all forms of idolatry.

[JerryNumbers]

I was not accusing you of being of the RCC, I was just making a passing comment about their beliefs on suicide.

What other sins is it that a Christina will not commit?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Christians are capable of committing many sins, Jerry. I don't need to give a list.

But Romans 5:3 clearly shows us that those who are justified by faith, glory in tribulations.

How many suicidal people do you know that 'glory in tribulations'? I know of none.

Yet, Paul said "WE glory in tribulations".

[Standing Firm In Christ]

From "The Tragedy of Suicide" by David L. Brown, Th. M.:

FOUR OTHER REASONS SUICIDE IS WRONG

IT IS THE APEX OF SELFISHNESS
The root of suicide is self-centeredness. Charles Ryrie says "Suicide is one of the greatest acts of selfishness, for in it the individual caters to his desires and own will and ignores the effects it has on others." Philippians 2:3 speaks to the issue of selfishness. It tells us we are not to be selfish but to put others before ourselves.
IT IS REBELLION AGAINST GOD AND A FORM OF ATHEISM
When an individual takes his own life he is saying, "I don't care about your purposes or plan for my life all I care about is me and 'escaping' from the present situation." That's rebellion. In addition, the person who commits suicide is not escaping at all. They are "jumping from the frying pan into the fire." I will tell you more about that later in the study. Where does the atheism come in? The individual who makes a decision to take his or her life puts himself in the place of God, making a choice that only God should make. Further he is asserting that God is impotent, because his problems are TOO BIG for God. That is a tragic mistake. God is bigger than your problems and able to do over and above what is needed to take care of the situation. Not only that, he wants you to come to Him for help! (Eph. 3:20; Matt. 11:28-30; I Cor. 10:13)
IT IS PLAYING INTO SATAN'S HANDS
Satan is the destroyer, (Abaddon & Apollyon = Destroyer in Rev. 9:11). His purpose is to "...kill and to destroy" (John 10:10). Satan wants the unsaved person in Hell and the believer to be unable to witness and work for the Lord. Suicide accomplishes his goal. Satan wants you to believe there is no way out. He loves death. If your thoughts echo "take your own life, kill yourself, there is no way out..." you can be sure of their origin, SATAN! The grave is victory for the devil when someone takes their life. His deception worked. They bought the lie, that death was escape. But Satan knows that there is no chance in eternity to change your destiny. The doom of the unbeliever is sealed and the witness of the believer is silenced.
IT CRIPPLES THE BODY OF CHRIST
If the believer commits suicide it brings reproach on the name of Christ. Unbelievers scoff at Christ saying, "If he was so great, how come he couldn't help the one who committed suicide." ... I Cor. 12:12, 20, 26-27 points out this body relationship and Romans 14:7 makes us aware that our life and death influences others.

SUMMARY: You cannot deny the fact that committing suicide is wrong. 1) It breaks the sixth commandment, 2) It is the apex of selfishness, 3) It is rebellion against God & a form of atheism, 4) It is playing into Satan's hands, 5) It cripples the body of Christ. In addition, THERE IS NO CHANCE IN ETERNITY TO CHANGE YOUR DESTINY.

I disagree with Mr Brown when he says the believer is silenced. I do not believe a true believer will commit suicide, the murder of self.

In the book of Exodus, we find the command, "Thou shalt not kill." The Hebrew word for "kill" in that commandment is found 47 times in the Old Testament. A study of those verses reveal that it us used in conjunction with those who murder others intentionally, or take their own lives intentionally... outside of war. It is clear God tells us we are not to murder ourselves.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

IN Samson's prayer, he petitioned God to "Let me die..."

When one does a search for that exact phrase in the Word of God, one only finds 3 instances; spoken by Israel, Balaam, and Samson. The Hebrew word there is the word "muwth". Were Israel or Balaam attempting suicide when they cried, "Let me die"? Of course not!

And neither was Samson.

The word "muwth" is found three times in the verse in which Samson said "Let me die"

Judges 16:30 And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

Why did this verse not say, "...which he slew when he killed himself..."? Because Samson did not kill himself. He was crying out for God to kill him. "Let me die" (muwth) ... "which he slew" (muwth)... "he slew in his life" (muwth)

Samson was praying not that he could take his own life, but rather that God would take it as he himself (Samson) took the lives of the Philistines.

[John81]

Suicide is a sin like other sins and Scripture is clear that Christians will continue to sin so long as they live in the flesh. Many a Christian has faced times in their life when they have wished to die. Many have thought of taking their own life. According to Christ, such thoughts of the heart makes one guilty of the sin as if they had carried it out.

How many Christians have died without having confessed and repented of every last sin in their lives, or even those which they had committed after coming to Christ? How many even recognize every sin they ever commit?

I see nothing in Scripture that indicates suicide is one sin that no Christian can commit.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I disagree, John.

I see enough Scripture in the Word of God to indicate that suicide reveals the true nature of the individual to be of satan and not of God.

[Brother Rick]

So everyone here 'believes' in eternal security, but it looks like we have two viewpoints on it:

1. A person is saved forever by Christ's righteousness, regardless of what happens to him afterwards. Christians are capable of backsliding and going into sin, even on a permanent basis, but not without consequenses. I believe this is the most biblical view.

Here's chapter seventeen, I hope it helps provide a little balance here and explains this view:

Chapter Seventeen

Ten Things a Christian Really Can Lose

“…Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.”

Luke 19:24

It should be abundantly clear by this point that a Christian can not lose his salvation. The first and primary argument against a Christian being “once saved and always saved” is that a believer can go out and “do anything he wants” once he’s saved and he’ll be okay. Nothing could be further from the truth. While God isn’t going to go back on His promise and throw a Christian in Hell, a rebellious child of God will still have to bear the consequences of a wasted life in time and eternity.

This is what a rebellious child of God stands to lose:

1. Joy.

Rev. 2:4, “Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.”

Living a life focused on self won’t make a lost man happy in the long run, and it certainly won’t for a saved man. That saved man has the Holy Spirit of God in him all the while he is living his life in sin. How sad to think of a man who had all the potential in the world to live for Christ, later on in life wishing he had a second chance. A Christian who only lives his life for himself will always find himself, at some point, disappointed and sorrowful for doing so.

2. Rewards.

II John 1:8, “Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.”

The Bible is very clear that Christians get rewards in Heaven based upon Christian service in their life. The time in which Christians are rewarded is called the Judgment Seat of Christ, and it follows the Rapture of the Church. In I Corinthians 3 it speaks of Christians being rewarded with gold, silver, and precious stones. Other passages speak of five crowns that the believer can receive as well.

The truth is, no one has received a single reward as of yet. Those rewards will be given out at a future date. I John 1:8, along with parable of the pounds in Luke 19 teach us that it is possible for Christians to lose these rewards. You could live your whole life for Christ and then blow it at the very end, destroying your testimony as many preachers have, and watch your whole life go up in smoke at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

3. Millennial Reign.

II Tim. 2:12-13, “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13) If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.”

Some have used verse twelve to try and prove that a Christian can be denied by Christ and lose his salvation. Verse thirteen clears that up – Christ will never deny us a home in Heaven because to do so would mean He’d have to deny Himself (we are joint-heirs with Him and in the body of Christ). However, we do stand to lose a special position following the rapture.

After the Rapture, and the Tribulation, Jesus Christ will rule the world from Jerusalem. This period of time will last one thousand years (see Revelation chapter twenty) and during it the saints will reign with Christ. God says that if you suffer for Christ now on this Earth, that you’ll reign with Him later on. However, if you deny Him, he’ll deny you a Millennial reign.

How sad to be living in the Millennium, and even though life will be so much better than it is now, to know in the back of your mind that because you denied Christ you’re missing out on the wonderful experience of reigning with Him.

4. Testimony and Influence.

Rev. 2:5, “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.”

The candlesticks in Revelation represented churches that were in the presence of Jesus Christ. The church that refused to repent lost the power of God on it as its candlestick was taken away.

An example of this in the Old Testament is Lot. In II Peter 2:8 we read that Lot was righteous and his soul was vexed with the wickedness that was around him on a daily basis. When it came time to leave Sodom, no one took him seriously because of the company he kept (Gen. 19:14). He refused to separate himself when he should have, and as a result he lost his testimony and any influence he had as a believer.

5. Life.

Acts 5:3-5, “But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
5) And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.”

As God killed Ananias and Sapphira for lying in Acts 5, sometimes God just kills Christians who won’t get right. We’ll go into this a little more in the next chapter, but just remember you are not your own. You are bought with a price and we are left here to glorify our Saviour.

6. Health.

I Cor. 11:29-30, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”

The “damnation” in verse twenty-nine is clarified to be temporal in verse thirty, that is, they suffer the consequences in this life, not the next. It’s possible for a Christian to lose his health because of sin. In this case it’s because they were taking part in the Lord’s Supper with unrepentant hearts; some even died.

There’s a true story about a pastor who had problem with adultery in his church. Several families were involved in “swinging,” and they refused to get right. Oddly enough, they kept coming to church. The details of this story are not clear as to whether or not the pastor attempted to “church” the swingers or not, or even if he knew who they all were. One thing is clear though: the pastor began a policy of having communion every Sunday. The adulterers were there, and they took part in it every week. Within the course of a year, several of them died and the eventually problem went away.

Thankfully, God is longsuffering and merciful, but the Scriptures tell us He will suddenly destroy the stubborn and rebellious. God hates arrogance and pride. We should always try to live right for the Lord because we love him, but God wasn’t kidding when He said “the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

7. Peace.

Luke 22:62, “And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.”

Peter wasn’t humming “Peace, peace, wonderful peace, coming down from…” that night. He sat alone that night in the cold air, sobbing that he had denied his Savior. He lost his peace. Many Christians lose their peace because they’ve ruined their relationship with the Father. They’re still saved, but sin has gotten in between them and God.

Many people ignore the clear teachings of the Bible and head down the path of life based upon their own wisdom. This is especially true when it comes to finances and child training. When they wind up in over their heads, they have no where to turn because the road behind them was paved with worldly wisdom. They have no peace because they suddenly realize that the security they had was based in man’s philosophies and not the promises found in the word of God. The only cure for this is to give up everything you thought you knew and dig deep into the word of God for the truth, and then to latch hold of the promises of God with everything you’ve got.

8. Protection of God.

I Cor. 5:5, “To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

Once again, we are reading about punishment that is dealt in this life – not the next life. In this case we have Paul recommending that a local church “deliver” a young man unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, but that the man’s spirit would still be saved.

Job is the reason why we know that terrible events in one’s life don’t always indicate sin in one’s life. It’s a terrifying thought to think of what Satan would like to do to you. He is evil incarnate, and would do everything to you that he did to Job if God let him. In fact, Satan would have done more to Job, but God limited him.

The protection of God is not something to be taken for granted. God will kill a Christian, allow a Christian to become sick, and He will also remove His hand of protection over a Christian and allow Satan to have his way with him.

9. Blessings of God.

Mal. 3:10, “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.”

In the Old Testament God blessed people for tithing, and there’s no reason to believe that in the New Testament He doesn’t do the same. One can hear testimony after testimony of God’s provision during hard times, and the blessings, both tangible and intangible that come down from God upon the believer. Those who live their lives for the Lord experience the blessings of God in their lives.

There’s nothing quite as wonderful as seeing God do something special in your life. It makes a child of God feel special and uniquely loved by his Father. How sad would it be for a Christian to live his whole life for himself and never know what this is like!

10. Assurance of Salvation.

I Tim. 4:2, “Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;”

Some people aren’t confused about salvation as described in chapter one of this book. Instead, some Christians have scorned the grace of God and lived their lives in sin. When this happens, the Holy Spirit is quenched (He’s still there, you just can’t hear Him anymore) and the man’s conscience is seared. Very often when this happens, the assurance of salvation is gone. “How could I be saved and do…” This isn’t a matter of God taking something away from you; it’s just one of the many natural consequences of sin.

As you can see, a Christian does stand to lose a lot, or miss out on some pretty wonderful things if he lives his life for himself. Paul warned the Romans to not sin that “grace may abound.” God is merciful, but He’s not one to be trifled with.



2. Saved people never backslide on a permanent basis, there are sins that a Christian is unable to commit, and a Christian will always get right at some point.

Here are the problems I have with the second view:

1. What sins are a Christian incapable of committing? Where does the Bible lay this out? If a Christian and a lost man both have the same old nature in them (which they do) then isn't a saved man who is completely following the flesh just as capable of sins as a lost man?

2. Where does the Bible state that a Christian will always get right? If a Christian will always get right, why does God kill Christians who refuse to get right (see points 5, 6, and 8)? Obviously there are times that a Christian backslides and doesn't get right! Ananias and Sapphira, Demas, Diotrephes... who knows, maybe even Hymenaeus and Alexander were saved??

3. There is no clear and consistent standard when it comes to this teaching. No drunks are saved! But we'll ignore liars. No Christian will commit suicide... but he'll murder and cheat on his wife (David)? C'mon, this teaching is about as solid as the idea you can lose your salvation. Those who teach you can lose your salvation all have different rules on how to do it and no two of them agree. Certain sins will damn you, but NOT MY SINS!

Edited December 20, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Scripture does not say Ananias and Sapphira were saved. Matter of fact, it indicates they were not members of the Church.

Shocked to hear that? Read Acts 4. Every member of the Church agreed that nothing they had belonged to them and they sold all and brought the price to the Apostle's feet. Move on to Chapter 5. Ananias and Sapphira see what is going on and decide to 'get in on the action', so to speak. They sell a piece of property and bring part of the price. But those in chapter 4 brought all the price. They remind me of Simon, who wanted to buy the gift of the Holy Ghost. They wanted to buy the Church's grace.

Demas? Again, unsaved. He departed Paul's company because he loved the world. What does James say about that? That he is an enemy of God. Doesn't sound like a saved man to me.

Hymenaeus? I believe 2 Timothy 2:16-17 reveal him to be ungodly.

Alexander? Since he is named with Hymenaeus in 1 Timothy, I believe him also to be ungodly.

Diotrephes? Again, doubtful. Diotrephes was a man of pride... he loved to have the preeminence. Pride is an abomination according to Proverbs, and God hates it. Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall. Sure, Diotrephes may have been a member of the laity, but there are many a minister who will tell you they preached for years and did not get saved until several years into their ministry. Just because a person can preach a message does not mean that person is in Christ.

Apparently, those who believe a Christian can commit suicide believe murderers will not go to the lake of fire. That Jesus must have been mistaken when He said, My sheep hear my voice and they follow me. That He must not have meant Comforter when referring to the Holy Spirit. Solomon said in Ecclesiastes that those who were oppressed were oppressed because they had no comforter. It is clear that that one who is tormented so much that he or she feels suicide is the answer does not have the Comforter abiding in him or her. He or she does not have the Comforter to guide them into all truth.

I looked the Word "Comforter" up in the Greek. It means one who comforts and consoles. What does console mean? To cheer the mind in distress or depression.

If we are to believe some, Jesus must have been lying when He said "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" That Spirit that gives rest to those in distress isn't functioning in the capacity that Jesus said He would? Really?

Edited December 20, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[HappyChristian]

I knew a girl years ago who committed suicide. She was saved - no matter what you are trying to make scripture say, standing. This girl was saved. Why did she commit suicide? Because her father told her she could not do what she believed God was calling her to do. This was a young girl (about 19). There were other things that happened and this was the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe she should have gloried in her tribulation, but to take that verse and claim that anyone who commits suicide can't be saved because they aren't glorying in their tribulation is really stretching it. Big time. I know this for sure: I will see this young lady again in eternity. Salvation is eternal. And Christians who take their eyes off the Lord, who do not submit to his loving leadership, are as capable as any - because we are still in the flesh - of sin. Even the sin of suicide.

[Brother Rick]

SFIC, You have no evidence that any of those individuals were lost. You're shoving them into that mold so that it will fit your false theology. Your explanation of why Demas was never saved was ridiculous. Demas a preacher and a right hand man to Paul - and you're saying he was lost the whole time? Anyone who worked with Paul suffered for it. Demas suffered for the Lord, but in the end he gave up!

Even if they were lost, the young man delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh was not. He had sex with his father's wife and was saved! Paul's solution was to deliver the young man unto Satan - not to go to Hell but to die. God would have killed him if he had not repented, and before you tell me that the man was guaranteed to repent because the sheep always follow the Shepherd in the end go back and read this passage under point six:

I Cor. 11:29-30, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”

Edited December 20, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Where does Scripture say Demas suffered for the Lord? Chapter and verse please?

As to the man in 1 Corinthians 5 that you refer to, Where does the Word of God say he was saved at that point? I see Paul saying "o deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

That the spirit may be saved indicates that it was not saved yet... may be saved... future event.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Brother Rick]

Where does Scripture say Demas suffered for the Lord? Chapter and verse please?

I'll answer that when you tell me where it says he was never saved.

~~~

I love how you ignored the rest of the previous post:

Even if they were lost, the young man delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh was not. He had sex with his father's wife and was saved! Paul's solution was to deliver the young man unto Satan - not to go to Hell but to die. God would have killed him if he had not repented, and before you tell me that the man was guaranteed to repent because 'the sheep always follow the Shepherd in the end,' go back and read this passage under point six:

I Cor. 11:29-30, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.” Edited December 20, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I already told you Rick. Demas loved the world. He was an enemy of God.