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Suicide and salvation?

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Actually, I have read that a fox will chew its leg off in wildlife books. I just did a search online and found two instance where it is said a fox will chew his leg off.

Perhaps you never saw it happen, but that does not mean it has not happened.

You may want to read the book "Jaws of Steel" by Thomas Eveland.(1991)

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Actually, I have read that a fox will chew its leg off in wildlife books. I just did a search online and found two instance where it is said a fox will chew his leg off.

Perhaps you never saw it happen, but that does not mean it has not happened.


Well you can choose not to believe me if you like, but I can say with complete confidence it does not happen with fox period unless your speaking of every once in a blue moon about chewing under the jaws where the foot is numb. I have no doubt at all. To say otherwise is a ridiculous statement to anyone who has done much trapping. I have trapped hundreds(maybe thousands) of animals personally and know many others who have literally trapped ten's of thousands over the years and have never seen or heard(from a knowledgeable trapper) of one ever chewing on itself except occasionally below the trap jaws where the foot is asleep and they can't feel it. That doesn't even usually let them escape unless they were only being held by a toe or something in the first place. The ideas that animals chew off their feet to escape or that the foothold traps break the bones in the feet is propaganda of the anti-trapping peta types. There are pretty much only two ways a animal will ever leave a foot in a foothold trap. In the old days in particular trap chains tended to be poorly swiveled and sometimes the chain would get all twisted up and in a bind. When this happened if the animal jumped wildly about it could get its leg in a bind as well and end up breaking the bone as it twisted its body around. Once the bone is broken the animal could pull free fairly quickly leaving a foot behind. This was particularly a problem with weak boned animals like muskrats. This is almost completely a non-issue in the modern era as proper swiveling with two or three swivels in the the trap chain prevents it from ever happening. Sometimes it can happen today with a toenail or something twisting off when a toenail is all the trap got a grip on but that is about it if your traps are set up properly. Back before it was known that swiveling was the issue these cases were frequently and incorrectly blamed on the animal "chewing out". Those were actually twist outs not chew outs. The second way is when the animal is killed an eaten by something else that eats it right down to the foot in the trap. That is usually obvious by all the fur spread around. Coyote will frequently do this if they find a fox in a trap. Edited by Seth-Doty

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By the way, you did indeed say one can live any way they please and are still saved



No, you are right, no one did say that Paul was not saved, but the implication that a believer living in sin will not make it to heaven does. And yes, salvation is a definitely not a license to sin but we are eternally saved - the bible is very clear on that. So how can a person who is eternally saved not go to heaven if they continue to live in sin?

Oh and by the way, the bible does teach that a born again Christian can live as he/she please and still make it to heaven.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Though this does not give reason to live a life of sin and disobedience it is very clear that it is possible because the grace mentioned is the same grace that saves. Paul continues in the chapter to give the reasons why we should no longer live lives controlled by sin and how we are now free from sin. We know that God is our father and I ask, would any humane father disown his child because he went off for a while and lived with the pigs? Yet God loves us more than any humane father could. And note the "grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" in vrs 21. The righteousness being that of Christ and not our own.


Again, like everything you say, out of context, maybe you should re-read - I highlighted just for you in red.

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:ot: but I wanted to note that this is not true. I have trapped since I was a child and I also know many other trappers online and that just does not happen. Now some animals like coons, skunks, or possums(but not usually fox) are "chewers" and will occasionally chew the foot below the jaws of the trap because the foot has gone to sleep and they cannot feel it and they are busy chewing up everything in reach, but no animal will chew the foot where it is not asleep and cause itself pain in order to "escape". They don't reason like that nor do they generally fight the trap itself terribly hard as long as they have some cover to hide under and are not stuck out in the open where they feel exposed. Typically as has been proven with game cameras they will actually fight the trap for 10 minutes or less and if they don't escape by then they tend to settle down and struggle much less or not at all until disturbed. If animals really would chew their feet off to escape a trap then trappers would not use foothold traps since the whole point is to catch and hold the animal, not to cause them to self mutilate. I have frequently put my fingers in my traps to demonstrate that they are a far cry from the mutilating instruments of torture movies and public perception often makes them out to be.

Ok, back to topic... :wink


:smug:

Sorry Seth, But I have seen traps that if your finger was caught in them, it would near pinch the ends off. And i have seen them break the leg of the trapped animal, and I have seen one dog caught in such a trap that broke his leg.

Oh, I have never seen a three footed fox, skunk, coon, or possum, but I'm not saying there has never been any.

:11backtotopic: Edited by Jerry80871852

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You may want to go back and read my original statement concerning the fox. I did not say they escaped... I said they chew their foot off when caught in a hunter's trap. And it does happen. As I said, read "Jaws of Steel" . In it are accounts of such events happening.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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What I stated about the coon in the trap was not pointed towards you, nor no one on this board. I was just telling that to Standing Firm in Christ. By the way, I disagree with some of his post too. But I will not call his beliefs stupid.

And if you will go look at your post, you should be able to tell why everyone thought that you were stating Judas was a saved man.

The only part that was rightly pointed towards you was that I was surprised that anyone on here thought Judas was a save man.

With that said, I will apologize if you thought the joke I posted was pointed to you, & that is the only thing I'm apologizing for.

And if you think my beliefs are stupid, them we are very far apart.

Now, should any of us be upset or even mad, because you called out beliefs stupid? I'm not, just disappointed. But i want hold it against you.


Isn't that what the two of you have constantly told me? Maybe you do not have the guts to come right out and say it, but you have implied it enough times, that what I believe the bible says is a lie, that I am damned, that I am going to hell - like they say, whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

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Sorry Seth, But I have seen traps that if your finger was caught in them, it would near pinch the ends off.. And i have seen them break the leg of the trapped animal, and I have seen one dog caught in such a trap that broke his leg.


Beaver traps have a jaw spread of around 7.5 inches and are generally the largest and strongest traps used(bear traps aren't really used any more), and even they won't do that. Worst that might possibly happen with those is a bruise or a bruise leading to losing a fingernail if you snapped it on. Most wouldn't even do that. The fox size doesn't even hurt on your fingers. To "near pinch the ends off" of your finger you would have to have sharp jaws on the trap. Smooth rounded jaws do not do that, and I have been pinched both intentionally and accidentally with several different size traps over the years. As far the dog that broke his leg, not saying that might not be possible, but it was most likely the result of a poorly swiveled trap, not the fault of the trap itself. I am guessing this was quite a few years ago... I use to have a dog that would get himself caught in my traps fairly regularly. He would yelp and jump but then he would sit down and I would let him out. He never seriously hurt or broke a thing. He would hold up the paw that had been caught and hop around for a couple of minutes but then he would forget about it and go about as if nothing had happened. Edited by Seth-Doty

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Again, like everything you say, out of context, maybe you should re-read - I highlighted just for you in red.
I have highlighted the part where you said that one could live as one pleases and still go to heaven. Even with your surrounding paragraphs it still says and means the same thing. You are teaching one can live as one pleases and still go to heaven.

And may I remind you of the unblblical doctrine you told of a man living a life of a drunkard, dying a drunkard and in heaven? Paul told the Church that drunkards are without. In other words, drunkards are not of the Body of Christ.... meaning they will not be in heaven. Nothing that defiles can enter God's kingdom, Tim., no matter how much you want it to.

And despite your claim in the quote that the Bible teaches one can live as one pleases, the very verses you posted prove your claim to be false. Paul said God forbid! (I notice you didn't red that important sentence. Pqaul told the Romans those who are dead to sin are not to continue in sin. In other words... don't live as you please. Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Isn't that what the two of you have constantly told me? Maybe you do not have the guts to come right out and say it, but you have implied it enough times, that what I believe the bible says is a lie, that I am damned, that I am going to hell - like they say, whats good for the goose is good for the gander.


In the past, I have been quite brave, & I have told a few that their teachings were false. And I probably would do so again. But much depends on the subject at hand & the amount of time we spent discussing it..

On this one the only part I have actually spoken about is the salvation of Judas, & I believe I stated something like this, you need to study it out. For I understood you to say he was a saved man.

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Beaver traps have a jaw spread of around 7.5 inches and are generally the largest and strongest traps used(bear traps aren't really used any more), and even they won't do that. Worst that might possibly happen with those is a bruise or a bruise leading to losing a fingernail if you snapped it on. Most wouldn't even do that. The fox size doesn't even hurt on your fingers. To "near pinch the ends off" of your finger you would have to have sharp jaws on the trap. Smooth rounded jaws do not do that, and I have been pinched both intentionally and accidentally with several different size traps over the years. As far the dog that broke his leg, not saying that might not be possible, but it was most likely the result of a poorly swiveled trap, not the fault of the trap itself. I am guessing this was quite a few years ago... I use to have a dog that would get himself caught in my traps fairly regularly. He would yelp and jump but then he would sit down and I would let him out. He never seriously hurt or broke a thing. He would hold up the paw that had been caught and hop around for a couple of minutes but then he would forget about it and go about as if nothing had happened.


You have not been around the traps I have. I will stop here, if you do not believe me, that's OK!

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I believe you, Jerry.

Here is a site that shows what those traps can do. Feet sure look broke to me.


Haa.. that site is pure propaganda. The picture of the coyote in a trap is realistic enough but the caption says it is being "left to die of hunger or thirst".That is pretty silly and shows their slant. The picture of the coyote foot was most likely done with a hatchet, not a trap. Even if someone knows nothing about traps just think about it logically for a moment. All the bones in that foot are not only broken but severed. The only thing holding it on is a strip of skin on one side. I could easily pull it off with my hands at that point. Now is a logical person supposed to believe that a trap would be so powerful as to sever that coyote foot almost completely an yet not take it off completely? Even if we were to allow that for the sake of the argument why would the coyote not escape? One or two tugs would do it. It isn't trap damage at all. Same thing for the photo of the dog. If you blow it up you can see the area that "looks" damaged is above where the trap has a grip. The trap only has the dog by three toes(it is a 1.5 size trap designed for smaller animals) and the toes are not damaged at all. As I said, it is all propaganda pure and simple.

If your into pictures here are a couple I took just tonight to prove the point.

001-3.jpg

This is a beaver trap. Jaw spread is 7.5 inches. Traps this size are to large to legally set on land in many states. I use it for the pictures to make a point as your unlikely to come across more powerful foothold traps in use except in alaska. As you can see it is not exactly small or weak, and it is four coiled(extra springs) which gives it extra power. In fairness it is also laminated(extra jaw thickness) which brings it back about even with a unmodified trap. Typically traps will be smaller and less powerful than this one though.

002-4.jpg

Ahhh... my fingers are being chopped off... :frog:

003-7.jpg

Oh the agony, I better chew my hand off quick. :wink

005-3.jpg

As you can see, other than the rust stains(new trap not yet treated for field use) and a slight depression in the skin, my fingers are none the worse for it. No blood, no broken bones. Now if I was in the trap for hours pulling and jerking it would cause some local bruising and there would also be some swelling from the lack of circulation, but that is about it. That is why trappers not infrequently release smaller animals they don't want. Edited by Seth-Doty

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Of course the traps I spoke of was made way before my birth in 1946, belonging to my mothers father. I believe he was about 85 when he died in 47, & I believe she told me until I used them they had been hanging up in the smoke house since her father turned 45 years of age.

They were round in shape, several had the double springs. They were hanging in our old smoke house, & I had to try them out in the woods behind our house.

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Tell you what Seth, put your hand in that trap and jump around for several minutes pulling and twisting every which way as hard as you can trying to get out of the trap. Let me know if you have more than "a little indentation and redness."

When an animal is trapped, it is scared. It does everything it can to get out. . So imitate that animal, then get back to us.

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Tell you what Seth, put your hand in that trap and jump around for several minutes pulling and twisting every which way as hard as you can trying to get out of the trap. Let me know if you have more than "a little indentation and redness."

When an animal is trapped, it is scared. It does everything it can to get out. . So imitate that animal, then get back to us.


Been there tried that. I had heard all the "stories" too as a child and wanted to make sure the traps were humane so I did jerk on the chain and pull to imitate a trapped animal. Results are the same with slightly more redness but that is it. More to the point when you catch the animal and see his foot the next day it looks the same. No blood and no broken bones. When you skin out the foot there is usually some light bruising under the hide but that is it. That is the whole point of smooth jaws, swivels and shock springs, they work. Edited by Seth-Doty

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Yeah, these "jaw traps" don't hurt animals... Right.




They can when improperly setup, but that is much like hunting. If you know what your doing and do it right it is reasonably humane. If you don't know what your doing, blaze away at everything and wound game it is not. Trapping is the same. If the pictures of my fingers in such a large and powerful trap don't mean anything to you then believe what you want, you will anyway. I could take countless pictures of unharmed animal feet too but I think I have demonstrated my point. I don't see any reason to argue it further.

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Here's a little "tidbit" from Dr. Henry M. Morris from Days of Praise, ( Dec 2, 2005) about Judas Iscariot:

His Own Place

by Henry Morris, Ph.D.

"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place" (Acts 1:24-25).

The last three words of this passage have profound significance. Although Judas had walked with Christ and the other apostles for three years, he was out of place there all that time. It took the traumatic events of the final week of Jesus' ministry to reveal his true character.

At death, each of us will go to his own place, whether heaven or hell. If a person has found the company of Bible-believing, Bible-living Christians uncomfortable in this life, and feels more at home with the Bible-doubting, God-ignoring majority, then his own place will surely be with them in the future life. Such a person would be more miserable in heaven than in "his own place." The tragic words of the Bible's final chapter are these: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Revelation 22:11).

An artificial profession of belief, like that of Judas, will not change one's basic character. Sooner or later, that person will be found altogether out of place. "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2 Peter 2:22). Yet a true change of heart, through genuine faith in Christ, will change our eternal residence, as well, for then God "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Colossians 1:13).

There is, indeed, a wonderful "place" which Christ has gone to "prepare" for all those who truly desire to be with Him in His place! (John 14:2). HMM

His Own Place

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Excellent post, Linda!

That last paragraph reveals an interesting truth... "sooner or later, that person will be found out of place." The suicide has proven that person to be out of place even though that person may have made a profession of faith 10,20, 30, or even 50 years earlier. The sow that was washed still had a nature to wallow in the mud. Had an outward appearance of being clean, just as that suicide did... but proved that the outward form of cleanliness and godliness was only superficial. His true nature was not that of a changed person at all, and eventually the evil that was in his heart surfaced to reveal to all who he really served.

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Here's a little "tidbit" from Dr. Henry M. Morris from Days of Praise, ( Dec 2, 2005) about Judas Iscariot:

His Own Place

by Henry Morris, Ph.D.

"And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place" (Acts 1:24-25).

The last three words of this passage have profound significance. Although Judas had walked with Christ and the other apostles for three years, he was out of place there all that time. It took the traumatic events of the final week of Jesus' ministry to reveal his true character.

At death, each of us will go to his own place, whether heaven or hell. If a person has found the company of Bible-believing, Bible-living Christians uncomfortable in this life, and feels more at home with the Bible-doubting, God-ignoring majority, then his own place will surely be with them in the future life. Such a person would be more miserable in heaven than in "his own place." The tragic words of the Bible's final chapter are these: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still" (Revelation 22:11).

An artificial profession of belief, like that of Judas, will not change one's basic character. Sooner or later, that person will be found altogether out of place. "The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire" (2 Peter 2:22). Yet a true change of heart, through genuine faith in Christ, will change our eternal residence, as well, for then God "hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son" (Colossians 1:13).

There is, indeed, a wonderful "place" which Christ has gone to "prepare" for all those who truly desire to be with Him in His place! (John 14:2). HMM

His Own Place


Yes, good thoughts.

I wonder about some people, & the life they live. I know in my heart that they would in no way feel comfortable in heaven, for everything they live for contradicts what God stands for. Yet they will say I'm a Christina, & I'm going to heaven.

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It is interesting, because Judas Iscariat companied with the Apostles; ate with them, traveled with them, etc.. The Apostles did not even suspect him of being the son of perdition. We see no indication that the other Apostles suspected him of any evil doings whatsoever. He appeared to be one that loved and served the Lord the same as they.

Yet, he went to his own place at the end.

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It is interesting, because Judas Iscariat companied with the Apostles; ate with them, traveled with them, etc.. The Apostles did not even suspect him of being the son of perdition. We see no indication that the other Apostles suspected him of any evil doings whatsoever. He appeared to be one that loved and served the Lord the same as they.

Yet, he went to his own place at the end.

Sadly there are many who think they are really Christians, they try to live a Christian life, to most they appear to be a Christian yet they have never been born again in Christ. Every so often I hear or read of someone who had thought they were a true Christian for years, sometimes decades, and then they were born again in Christ and can now see that all those years they thought they were right with God they were actually lost and would have gone to hell had they died at that time.

Jesus tells us in Scripture the day will come when many will proclaim they have done this and that for Christ, these are ones who thought they were Christians but were not actually biblical Christians, and Christ will inform them that He never knew them and they will be cast away along with all other lost folks.

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