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2Tim215

Suicide and salvation?

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I believe that such traps as desribed here are illegal in this country, although in the past they were, there were even man traps. About 8 miles from here in some woods there is a tree called "The Mantrap Tree" where a trap was set and the tree grew through it and became a fullgrown tree with the trap around it. Not joining the discussion, just digressing.

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I have highlighted the part where you said that one could live as one pleases and still go to heaven. Even with your surrounding paragraphs it still says and means the same thing. You are teaching one can live as one pleases and still go to heaven.

And may I remind you of the unblblical doctrine you told of a man living a life of a drunkard, dying a drunkard and in heaven? Paul told the Church that drunkards are without. In other words, drunkards are not of the Body of Christ.... meaning they will not be in heaven. Nothing that defiles can enter God's kingdom, Tim., no matter how much you want it to.

And despite your claim in the quote that the Bible teaches one can live as one pleases, the very verses you posted prove your claim to be false. Paul said God forbid! (I notice you didn't red that important sentence. Pqaul told the Romans those who are dead to sin are not to continue in sin. In other words... don't live as you please.



Luk 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

SFIC - The above verse is for you - you are the pharisee Jesus speaks of. I am the publican, a man that struggles every day with sin in his life. A man that does not claim to be perfect, holy or righteous on his own strength but rather ONLY through the blood of Christ. I sin every day. I fall every day, But I GET AGAIN UP EVERY DAY!! I don't pretend to be perfect and living without sin in my life on a forum where no one can actually see my daily life, where I am protected by anonymity.
I do not exalt myself above my fellow believer (well try not to unless some idiot with their arrogance upsets me) and neither do I attempt with every fiber of my being to make others doubt their salvation because it makes me feel holier as you like to do. The Word tells me I am saved because I believed. It tells me that my sins are as far removed as the east is from the west, it tells me that God has turned His back on my sin and that He no longer sees them, that I am covered by the blood of Christ and that that is all God sees. That I will NEVER be judged for my sin but only for my works or lack thereof. That I am ETERNALLY saved and that NOTHING I can ever do will EVER change that!

So stop pushing your Lordship salvation, your SELF righteous holier than thou living and your I am better than you arrogance. I am not interested.


Jerry, apologies for snapping at you. And no I did not say Judas was saved although it may have come across that way. My implication was that we do not know the finale outcome of Judas's act of repentance, his ultimate act of remorse nor what was in his heart at the time. And to SFIC remark about him (Judas) being of the devil - I remind him of this verse directed to the ROCK Peter (Mat 16:18):

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

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You wrongly judge me, 2Tim. I am no Pharisee.

You make unbiblical claims, then when your message is refuted using the Word of God, you attack the messenger.

Read the Gospels. The Pharisees were always delivering messages contrary to the truth, and when rebuked, they attacked the messenger of truth just as you are doing here.

And NEWS FLASH. If there was no change in you, or anyone else for that matter, after a profession of faith; i.e., living the same lifestyle as before the profession; i.e., still a drunkard, still a thief, still an adulterer, etc., then the profession of faith was dead faith.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

So many want to make a profession of faith in Christ but continue to live in their sin. That boat don't float. You cannot sit at the table of the Lord and drink from the cup of devils.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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You wrongly judge me, 2Tim. I am no Pharisee.

You make unbiblical claims, then when your message is refuted using the Word of God, you attack the messenger.

Read the Gospels. The Pharisees were always delivering messages contrary to the truth, and when rebuked, they attacked the messenger of truth just as you are doing here.

And NEWS FLASH. If there was no change in you, or anyone else for that matter, after a profession of faith; i.e., living the same lifestyle as before the profession; i.e., still a drunkard, still a thief, still an adulterer, etc., then the profession of faith was dead faith.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

So many want to make a profession of faith in Christ but continue to live in their sin. That boat don't float. You cannot sit at the table of the Lord and drink from the cup of devils.


Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

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2Tim215, please be careful who you call a Pharisee.


Way of Life Encyclopedia
PHARISEE

Jewish religious sect in Jesus' day (Matthew 23:13-29). The proud, hypocritical Pharisees opposed Jesus Christ and were instrumental in His death (Matthew 27:62). They had made the O.T. law into an unreasonable and unscriptural system of legalism and ignored the spiritual meaning God had intended them to receive. Many today label those who maintain high standards of Christian living as "Pharisees" and demean fundamental Christians as legalistic and pharisaical. The error of Phariseeism, though, was not their zeal to obey the Word of God. They had no such zeal. They had zeal, rather, to make up their own religious system and to rule over the people. It is important to note that Jesus Christ did NOT rebuke the Pharisees for their zeal in obeying the details of the law (Matthew 23:23). He rebuked them (1) for supplanting the Word of God with man-made tradition and thereby making the Word of God of none effect (Mt 15:1-9), (2) for rejecting Jesus Christ (Matthew 12:22-24), (3) for perverting the Gospel (Matthew 23:15), (4) for self-righteousness (Luke 18:9-14), and (5) for gross hypocrisy (Matthew 23:23; Mark 12:15; Luke 12:1). The Pharisees were at the forefront of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ and of the persecution of the early Christians. It is a deceptive slander to label a Christ-loving, Bible-honoring, Gospel-preaching, self-debasing, peace-loving Christian a Pharisee.


I've come to the end of my "rope" with your ad hominem attacks. If you must disagree, do so biblically and in a Christ-like manner.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth? Edited by LindaR

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2Tim215, please be careful who you call a Pharisee.




I've come to the end of my "rope" with your ad hominem attacks. If you must disagree, do so biblically and in a Christ-like manner.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?


The above quote you so graciously provided is EXACTLY what I was saying. Now will some moderator please remove me from this forum that allows "believers" to gang up in pairs or more to criticize, bully and proclaim false doctrine in the mistaken belief that I will just bow down to their lies.

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Why wait for a moderator to kick you off the forum? You have a choice.

It is not us inferring you are an idiot or stupid. You direct those unkind and unChristlike insults toward us.

By the way, no one is bullying you, nor lying about your. You have a problem with the truth so you keep posting these drive-by's.

We are not the ones proclaiming false doctrine. We're not the one that said one can be born a drunkard, live a drunkard's life, and die a drunkard and still have eternal life in Christ.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Yes, we know his outcome, sadly Judas was a lost man, he saw Jesus as only a good man.

And I have not seen no one in under this topic post that they were super Christians looking down on others as being below them, trying to make them doubt their salvation. When salvation is spoken about, if the person is saved, they will only find reassurance. Of course if not saved, if holding onto a false hope, many time they will start striking back.

Apologies accepted, yet was not necessary, I hold no grudge, nor did I get mad.

What does happen to me at times is I get frustrated for seemingly not being able to get across my point under some of our topics.

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I think it's funny how much kabitizing has been going in here about traps. :-)

SFIC, I keep seeing a theme with you in your posts in several threads. You insist that you believe in eternal security, and yet you keep going back to personal righteousness. Once a person has trusted Christ their personal righteousness has nothing to do with their eternal destiny, as in whether or not they go to Heaven or Hell.

Brother, none of us can do anything before salvation to earn it any more than we could do anything afterwards to lose it. If you believe in eternal security, then you'd agree with that statement.

Maybe what you're trying to say is this: I don't believe a saved person would ever..... (fill in the blank).

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A saved person would not return to the mire from which the Lord took him from. Paul declared in his epistle to the Church at Corinth that if any are in Christ Jesus, the old is passed away. We should shudder when temptation to sin arises. Yet, because of teh weakness of the flesh, we occasionally give in to the lusts of the flesh. The fact is, we will fall at times.

But just as Judas proved his true nature and went to his own place, the suicide proves his true nature and goes to his own place. Suicide is murder. That one who commits suicide proves his true nature is that of a murderer. And God's Word declares that all, not some but all, murderers will have their part in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.

I suggest you read Romans 6:1-2. Paul is admonishing the Romans and telling them they should not continue in sin.

The fact is, some believe they can make a profession of faith in the Lord, and continue wallowing in the mire they were before they even made the proffession.

One who is saved will show evidence of Salvation. Salvation is not just lip-service.

No, I do not believe one can lose his or her Salvation. In John 14, we see Judas calling Jesus "Lord", and yet we know Judas died a lost man. The fact is, many do not possess Christ who profess Chist. And that is why we are told we cann know them by their fruits.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Sure, when one tells a lie, that one is a liar. I understand that perfectly. But there is a difference in a liar and one who commits suicide. The liar can repent of his lies. He can confess and turn from that sin.

A suicide victim cannot. His true nature has come to the surface.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

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So, you believe that while a Christian may backslide occasionally, he will never stay in a permanent backslidden state - is that right?
If one is saved, that one will receive chastening from the Holy Spirit and will turn from that which he is doing.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. He did not say they might follow.

Ever watch a movie with sheep and shepherds? The sheep will follow the shepherd because they know his voice. But if the shepherd does not speak for a while, the sheep tend to stray.

We are like sheep. If we do not hear the Shepherds voice, we tend to stray. The best way to keep from straying is to stay near Him.

But because of the weakness of the flesh, if we don't hear Him constantly, we stray. But the suicide has done far worse than stray... he has proven his true nature. He was only a wolf among sheep. Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Rick....

How do you interpret these verses? Do they speak of saved people or lost people?

2 Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Do the saved "wallow in the mire" of sin? Should sin be the lifestyle of a born again Christian? Why is the dog turned again to his vomit and why did the sow/pig, that was washed return to wallowing in the mire? Could it be that this is the "nature" of the dog and pig?

These verses are used incorrectly to prove that one can lose their salvation. A born again Christian is a "new creature" in Christ Jesus. Why would someone want to return to the "mire" of sin after salvation? This does not mean we are to be sinlessly "perfect", but our lifestyle should change and our desire should be to please and obey God. The entire chapter of 2 Peter 2 is speaking of false teachers... the fact that they return to their wickedness proves that they were never regenerate.

I believe that salvation is not an excuse to live as one pleases. It is NOT simply a free ticket to heaven. A born again Christian will not "live in sin" continually without the conviction of the Holy Spirit. If there is no Holy Spirit conviction, one might want to "examine themselves" (2 Corinthians 13:5)

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

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Great question Linda, here's an excerpt from my book on that exact passage. The last chapter of my book is called "the confusing verse checklist." It gives the reader a checklist on how to figure out a tough passage on their own.

This is point number six:


6. Professors versus Possessors.

This isn’t professors as in teachers; it’s okay, if you teach at a local community college; God loves you too and you’re not going to lose your salvation.

What this point is about is people who claim to be saved but are not. This shouldn’t be any surprise: most of them you can spot without having much discernment at all. Any pastor (or hireling) that would go on a TV show and be incapable of answering simple questions about how you go to Heaven to an audience of millions is either not saved to begin with or he is a coward. He is claiming to be something he is not.

God talks about these people in very harsh terms. Sometimes people confuse these men with actual Christians and think God is talking about sending a child of God to Hell. Not true, of course.

Example:

II Peter 2:20-21, “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”

This passage is used to teach that if you are overcome by sin you’ll lose your salvation. The list of problems with this interpretation is very long, but suffice it to say these are people who never got saved in the first place. They lived clean lives because they had a head knowledge of the Bible and Christ, but they never received Him by faith.

How do we know they’re lost and were never saved to begin with?

1. They’re dogs, not sheep (Vs. 22). A lost man is a dog in the Bible; a saved man is a sheep and a new creature in Christ.

2. They’re “wells without water” (Vs. 17). Christians are wells with water (John 4:14).

3. They’re “brute beasts,” not sheep (Vs. 12).

4. They can not cease from sin (Vs. 14). A Christian can overcome sin.

5. They’re “cursed children” (Vs. 14), not children of God.

6. They turned away from the holy commandment. The holy commandment is to believe on Christ in I John 3:23. They never did; they turned away from it.

7. They are servants of corruption, and even though they promise liberty to their audience, they themselves are earning the reward of unrighteousness (Vs. 19, 13).

So when you come across a verse that may look like a person can lose his salvation, it’s important to consider if the person in the passage was ever truly saved in the first place.


~~~~


I think one of the things we as believers in the doctrine of Eternal Security lose sight of is that fact that there are severe consequences for someone that backslides. I don't believe that God removes people's free will upon conversion, so they can still backslide (yes, fruit will be shown in the life of a believer but to say they won't backslide ever or at some point 'give up' like Demas did is not supported by Scripture) on a permanent basis. However, Christians cannot just 'willy-nilly' give up on God and follow after the old nature without suffering some consequences. I have a chapter in my book called 'the ten things a Christian really can lose' and it points out what can happen to a Christian like Demas.

Edited by Rick Schworer

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If one is saved, that one will receive chastening from the Holy Spirit and will turn from that which he is doing.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. He did not say they might follow.

Ever watch a movie with sheep and shepherds? The sheep will follow the shepherd because they know his voice. But if the shepherd does not speak for a while, the sheep tend to stray.

We are like sheep. If we do not hear the Shepherds voice, we tend to stray. The best way to keep from straying is to stay near Him.

But because of the weakness of the flesh, if we don't hear Him constantly, we stray. But the suicide has done far worse than stray... he has proven his true nature. He was only a wolf among sheep.


Are you saying a person that commits suicide is not saved?

If the answer to be above question is yes, them what other sins do you believe a saved person will not commit?

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Jerry, that is exactly what I am saying.

A saved person can sin, as is evident by Paul' s seventh chapter in his epistle to the Romans. But as I pointed out, a saved person will confess his sin and turn from it.

Now, if you can show me how one can confess after suicide, repent and begin living for Christ again, I will be glad to listen.

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Rick...

Thank you for your response, but I was not questioning eternal security...I believe in the eternal security of the born again believer. However, I do not believe a born again believer will "continue in sin" as a lifestyle...and live as he/she pleases. Salvation does make a difference...it does not make us sinless, but we do sin "less".

Edited by LindaR

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Jerry, that is exactly what I am saying.

A saved person can sin, as is evident by Paul' s seventh chapter in his epistle to the Romans. But as I pointed out, a saved person will confess his sin and turn from it.

Now, if you can show me how one can confess after suicide, repent and begin living for Christ again, I will be glad to listen.


So you believe there are certain sins a saved person commit will cause them to lose their salvation.

Could you name all the sins a saved person can commit that will make them lose their salvation?

Plus, you don't really believe John 3:16 which says, 'but have everlasting life?'

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Rick...

Thank you for your response, but I was not questioning eternal security...I believe in the eternal security of the born again believer. However, I do not believe a born again believer will "continue in sin" as a lifestyle...and live as he/she pleases. Salvation does make a difference...it does not make us sinless, but we do sin "less".


True, but them there are those that believes the saved person, if they sin, or at least if they commit certain sins, they lose their salvation.

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It appears that there are some here who are trying to "justify" committing suicide.;Is this discussion moving towards giving a born again Christian an excuse to commit suicide? What ever happened to "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding"? (Proverbs 3:5) As born again Christians do we not believe in the faithfulness of God "who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able"? (1 Cor. 10:13)

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