Suicide and salvation?

[2Tim215]

First off, I find it ridiculous that I am unable to read or post on nearly all the available forums. Are we IB's so conservative that we have to protect ourselves from the view points of outsiders.

Now to the main question I have that I must post here as I was not allowed to post in the relative forum.

Can a saved believer commit suicide and lose there salvation? Now before I get a sermon on eternal security understand that I have been saved for over 25yrs and a 1611 AVKJB baptist for most of them. I just want biblical references to prove either or as I can find nothing besides the catholic point of view anywhere. I plan to be seeing my maker soon as we have unresolved issues that need sorting and I'm sick of the christian pretense that He actually listens and -wait for it - answers. Time for a face to face and yes I'll say it when most of you want to, but don't have the "" to say it - i'm one p'd off child of God and apologize if this offends, but life ain't pretty.

[John81]

If you know Scripture well enough to know about eternal security then you should realize eternal means eternal. If a person biblically born again in Christ commits suicide that doesn't somehow invalidate eternal security any more than if that person died while committing any other sin.

The question any person who claims to be born again in Christ and considering suicide should ask is whether or not they are truly born again in Christ. Scripture is clear there are signs/fruits we can look for in our lives so we may know if we are truly born again in Christ. All professing Christians are warned to examine their faith to see if they are truly in the faith or not. The torment of hell awaits those professing, yet acutally lost, "Christians" who die, whether of suicide or other means.

If one is ticked off at God and actually thinking that suicide would be a good idea and a way to have a face-to-face talk with God, that would suggest they are not thinking clear. God does not grant special audience in heaven to those who murder themselves.

Again, an examination of ones true position in Christ would be in order. We should be mindful that many will stand before the Lord proclaiming they were His but Christ will point out they were not and they will be cast into hell.

Taking the cowards way out, running away from what one is facing and murdering themselves in direct violation of the Word, is never a good or right way to respond to anything. God will not and does not allow anything to come into a persons life which they are not able to bear. God ALWAYS provides a way through or out of all things in life and that way is through Christ, not sin. If we ever think God has abandoned us, we are wrong. If we ever think we are facing something we can't make it through, we are wrong. Christ is waiting for us to turn fully to Him to bring us through.

[no name joe]

Nothing in Scripture says that suicide is an unforgivable sin. The only unforgivable sin is blasphame againt the Holy Spirit, which I read to mean rejection of the call of the Holy Spirit to salvation.

The only rationale to say that suicide is unforgivable is to say that because one died before one asked to be forgiven of that sin, then one cannot be forgiven. However, if that is true, then what if I have a lustful thought as I drive down the road and am then killed in a car accident while that lustful thought is in my mind? Or what if I lose my temper, and in the midst of a rampage have a heart attack and die? I did not have a chance to ask for God to forgive me then.

If one takes that approach, then forgiveness depends upon ourselves, and not upon the sacrifice Christ made for us. If we look upon Jesus and rely upon him for our salvation, then it does not matter that I die at a time when I have fallen into sin, or whether or not I have asked God to forgive me of a particular sin at the time of my death.

If I have called upon the name of Christ and have accepted his call to discipleship, then his grace is sufficient to cover ALL of my sin.

[irishman]

Very good answers men, and very true. One must be really hurting to be contemplating suicide, and I feel for him, but suicide answers nothing--it adds to the problem. Satan wins another victory, and your testimony, and the testimony of Christ is in jeopardy in suicide, not to mention the anguish you put your loved ones' through so that they to may wish themselves dead too. Try, perhaps as a last resort, getting alone with God in prayer and telling Hi you are displeased with Him; this scares me to say it, but it is better than suicide. Together you and He can work it out.

2 Tim, I too will soon meet the Lord. I have, if anyone has, reason to be bitter because I have dementia, which has no cure and always ends in death. The Lord could take it away, but whether he does or not, i remain in His care--He knows what he is doing. I am no hero, nor do I pretend to be, but I trust Him fully, and know that He is in control. I have some really hard times, as does my wife who takes care of me, but we must keep going, and will, by the grace of God. Hang in there' buddy, don't give up, the lord will lead you through all trials.

Edited November 1, 2011 by irishman

[Anon]

Suicide is murder of oneself. So...if a Christian murders someone, do they lose their salvation? Same as suicide.

The only question would be, could a true Christian commit murder or suicide? That question can only be answered by God.

[heartstrings]

I had some hard things happen in my life years ago that I couldn't handle and ended up seeing a psychiatrist at the advice of my pastor. The man recommended that all my guns be removed from the house, Even a Christian can get so depressed that there seems to be no hope. I've been there. But even since then, I have weathered even worse problems but God has blessed me and sustained me. I'm glad I stayed. Everyone has problems. Some of them so severe, that I marvel at the way people handle them.

Remember Job? Job lost his property, his health but most of all he lost his beloved children and was so full of agony, anguish and sorrow that he wished he had never even been born. To add insult to injury, he was unjustly judged and criticized by his "friends". But instead of getting mad at God, Job trusted God and who later blessed him. I believe there are some modern day "Jobs" living even now. I wish I could say that I never got mad at God, but I can't. I can say that God is merciful and forgiving and has our good in mind. He is no respecter of persons and can restore your life like he did Brother Job.

[heartstrings]

One more thing.
My Dad used to say "we were put here for each other". When you make it through this trial in your life, God may want you to help someone else who is hurting.

[John81]

Suicide is murder of oneself. So...if a Christian murders someone, do they lose their salvation? Same as suicide.

The only question would be, could a true Christian commit murder or suicide? That question can only be answered by God.

Actually we can answer the question too. True Christians are still subject to weaknesses of the flesh and temptations from the world and devil. True Christians are capable of committing virtually any sin, whether it be lying, adultery, homosexuality, murder, suicide, etc.

Perhaps you were more meaning whether or not a true Christian actually living as such could commit murder or suicide. In such a case the answer would be, yes, they could, but it would be much more unlikely if they were actually striving to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

As this would relate to the OP, if the person is ticked off at God and somehow thinks if they murder themselves they will instantly get an audience with God so they can tell God off and then hear directly what God has to say, that would seem to clearly indicate they are not walking in the Spirit, or even seeking to at this time, but are giving themselves fully over to the flesh and likely the influence of the devil as well. Which brings us back to the point you so well raise about whether one is a true Christian or not! A person having thoughts such as in the OP should be very careful about rash actions. Now would be a very good time to examine your faith and see if indeed you are actually a true Christian or not. If not, murdering yourself will make things infinetly worse. If you are a true Christian now is the time to drop to your knees in repentance and truly open your heart and mind to Christ who will heal the hurts, show you the way and help you out of this dark valley.

[JerryNumbers]

Actually we can answer the question too. True Christians are still subject to weaknesses of the flesh and temptations from the world and devil. True Christians are capable of committing virtually any sin, whether it be lying, adultery, homosexuality, murder, suicide, etc.

Perhaps you were more meaning whether or not a true Christian actually living as such could commit murder or suicide. In such a case the answer would be, yes, they could, but it would be much more unlikely if they were actually striving to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

As this would relate to the OP, if the person is ticked off at God and somehow thinks if they murder themselves they will instantly get an audience with God so they can tell God off and then hear directly what God has to say, that would seem to clearly indicate they are not walking in the Spirit, or even seeking to at this time, but are giving themselves fully over to the flesh and likely the influence of the devil as well. Which brings us back to the point you so well raise about whether one is a true Christian or not! A person having thoughts such as in the OP should be very careful about rash actions. Now would be a very good time to examine your faith and see if indeed you are actually a true Christian or not. If not, murdering yourself will make things infinetly worse. If you are a true Christian now is the time to drop to your knees in repentance and truly open your heart and mind to Christ who will heal the hurts, show you the way and help you out of this dark valley.

True, we can know, we have the answers in the Bible.

We do know that there is only one sin that is unforgivable, that is not believing on Jesus Christ as Savior, John 3:36.

[2Tim215]

The question any person who claims to be born again in Christ and considering suicide should ask is whether or not they are truly born again in Christ. Scripture is clear there are signs/fruits we can look for in our lives so we may know if we are truly born again in Christ.

Taking the cowards way out, running away from what one is facing and murdering themselves in direct violation of the Word,

1. Frankly, I am so sick of the Independent Baptist answer to everything they don't quite get - " Was he/she really saved?" The Word is VERY clear on salvation -if you at any time believed on Jesus Christ as your personal Savior then you are saved regardless of how you live afterward or if you confessed your sins and repented or were baptized or not or any other of the "IF'S". Many a born again believer is lying drunk in there own vomit somewhere, or considering/committing adultery, etc. You don't have to remember the exact day, time and place you gave your life to the Lord to be saved, nor do you have to be a 1611 KJV Bible believing Baptist to be the only one going to heaven.
2. Signs and fruits have nothing to do with your state but with your standing - this means that your state is in Christ and He has your salvation in His hands forever - your standing however is entirely up to you and the choices you make and the signs/fruits you bear reflect this not the grace of Christ.
3. It's easy to call someone a coward from the other side of the fence, maybe you should walk a mile in my shoes. I have faced death many times in my life and I can tell you that any one who decides to take their own life is not a coward, they have more than likely faced more in their lives than you could ever handle, on your own or on your knees!!!
   

Very good answers men, and very true. One must be really hurting to be contemplating suicide, and I feel for him, but suicide answers nothing--it adds to the problem. Satan wins another victory, and your testimony, and the testimony of Christ is in jeopardy in suicide, not to mention the anguish you put your loved ones' through so that they to may wish themselves dead too. Try, perhaps as a last resort, getting alone with God in prayer and telling Hi you are displeased with Him; this scares me to say it, but it is better than suicide. Together you and He can work it out.

2 Tim, I too will soon meet the Lord. I have, if anyone has, reason to be bitter because I have dementia, which has no cure and always ends in death. The Lord could take it away, but whether he does or not, i remain in His care--He knows what he is doing. I am no hero, nor do I pretend to be, but I trust Him fully, and know that He is in control. I have some really hard times, as does my wife who takes care of me, but we must keep going, and will, by the grace of God. Hang in there' buddy, don't give up, the lord will lead you through all trials.

Thanks, tried that too many times, but thanks for the kind words and keep on keeping on.

Suicide is not my way of dealing with things, but as an option has it's merits. Every person has the right to choose life or death. We do this at salvation when we choose life in Christ over death in sin. I am not the first to be angry with God and neither will I be the last if He keeps on tarrying. I wanted to see the reaction this thread would incur and besides the usual IB bigotry I have come to hate I have seen a love not often seen in IB forums or people and to see if just maybe there was a hidden verse I hadn't found yet . So thanks to those who care and to those who don't.

[HappyChristian]

Any person has the right to choose life or death? Not quite, 2Tim. God tells us that we each have an appointment with death. That very clearly implies a time set by God for each of us. The argument could be made that a suicide is the time set or it wouldn't happen, but the truth would more be that said person is leaning on their own understanding rather than acknowledging God. That said, I completely agree with your statement that salvation is forever, regardless. Your eternal destiny is assured. My hope, though, is that you don't take your own way out.

I'm sorry you're angry - I'm sure there must be a great level of hurt that has turned to that anger. And I'm sorry for that, too. But, just a word of caution: be careful of assuming that folks haven't faced things that would equal what you have faced. None of us has walked in each other's shoes, but we each have problems, trials, discouragements, and things that knock us for a loop.

No, indeed, you are not the first to be angry with God! Nor will you be the last. Again, I am sorry for whatever has taken place in your life to lead you to that anger. I know this probably won't mean a lot in your anger, but I just wanted to share this verse with you: "I have loved thee with an everlasting love..." I know you may not want to hear or accept this, since you are angry, but God does love you. I know you knew that at one time, else you would never have turned to Christ for salvation. I pray that you can once again know in your heart and life that God does love you.

[John81]

Indeed, Scripture tells us that our lives are not our own, we were bought with a price. Also, killing oneself is murder and murder is clearly unacceptable as it's a sin, as well as illegal.

Read the Scriptures in context and as a whole and it's clear that if one is truly born again in Christ there will be a change in their life and there will be fruit bearing evidence of salvation in their lives. The idea that one can be saved and live like the devil is unbiblical and extremely dangerous to the souls of millions.

[2Tim215]

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Read the Scriptures in context and as a whole and it's clear that if one is truly born again in Christ there will be a change in their life and there will be fruit bearing evidence of salvation in their lives. The idea that one can be saved and live like the devil is unbiblical and extremely dangerous to the souls of millions.

Seeing as you are quick to state scripture, lets see some references for salvation being responsible for fruit and the fact that it is not biblical for saved believes to live lives "like the devil".

[John81]

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Seeing as you are quick to state scripture, lets see some references for salvation being responsible for fruit and the fact that it is not biblical for saved believes to live lives "like the devil".

Seeing as you are so quick to attack and reject what is put forth it would do you much more good to read the Word for yourself. Read the New Testament, or read one Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.

What I have mentioned is basic Christianity and something we all need to feed upon ourselves.

Christians are called to forsake all for Christ. We are called to deny ourselves and submit to Christ. Our lives are no longer our own, if we are in Christ and if Christ is in us this will be clearly evident. Read the Word.

[2Tim215]

Seeing as you are so quick to attack and reject what is put forth it would do you much more good to read the Word for yourself. Read the New Testament, or read one Gospel and the rest of the New Testament.

John81, I am not quick to attack nor reject what is put forth as long as it is relevant, backed up by scripture and not one's opinion and finally, based on the love of Christ. You will note that in my first post I asked for scripture, not someones opinion. Yes, I may be angry with God, but I am not suicidal and my goal was to stir up a hornets nest and see what came out. You will also note that many who replied were humble, gentle and really concerned in their replies, not bigoted, arrogant and opinionated. My reason for the post was to see if this site had IB's who are full of themselves in their assurance that they are the only ones that know God, the Word, are saved and every one else is unsaved and doctrinally dammed. Having studied theology through and Independent Baptist college I "humbly" think that I have read the word a little on the odd occasion and am 100% sure that the scriptures you refuse to take the time to quote do not refer to fruit being the end result of salvation, but rather obedience. The first three Gospels in context refer to fruit as in directly linked to the nation of Israel - the Jews, and we know that doctrinally we can not take doctrine intended for the Jews and make it our doctrine, though we can learn from it. In John Jesus is telling them to abide in Him - this is an action on behalf of the believer and does not refer to salvation - again - obedience on the part of the believer. Every where else that Paul mentions fruit he is exhorting the believers to obey and live as Christ lived - action not result. Eph 5: 9 - (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth These are actions on behalf of the believer. There are two types of fruit - the fruit a believer manifests through obedience and the fruit that is Christs (the Church) -James 5:7.

So you John81, being perfect, have never sinned, do not continue to sin and thus are not of the devil (1John 3:8), whereas according to your doctrine those of us who sin and do not bear fruit are not saved and are of the devil and 1John 1:8 does not apply to you and I am sure that you have not Heb 12: 4'ed!!

I think that I will hold fast to Heb 10:10 (By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.) and to vrs 17 (And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.) and that Heb 10 :26-31 does not apply to the believer as in context Paul was speaking to the Jews throughout the chapter concerning the Law and those choosing to remain under it.

Christians are called to forsake all for Christ. We are called to deny ourselves and submit to Christ. Our lives are no longer our own, if we are in Christ and if Christ is in us this will be clearly evident. Read the Word.

Like I said, everything you stated there is an action on behalf of the believer, the fruit being the direct result directly proportional to the obedience of the believer, otherwise according to your belief all believers would all be producing exactly equal and living fruit filled lives, and the last time I was in church that was sadly not the case, unless of course your church does and if so then please forgive me and let me know where you are so that I can also be perfect. And as for reading the Word - I have.