Logical argument

[Covenanter]

How can you truly be convinced of something logically and someone else also be convinced of something totally opposite by logic; that is illogical.

You can not say that both X and not-X are true.

We have to be very careful with our Scriptural logic, & follow where the Bible leads, & not impose our reasoning on God's revelation.

The concept of the Trinity is understood by revelation, not logic.

Logic says the white horse man in Rev. 6 is the all-conquering Lamb, because in Rev. 19 there is no doubt, yet some use logic to see him as the antichrist.

Simple logic says the 70 weeks are 490 years, ending around 33 AD, yet some use other logic & see an indefinite gap between 69 & 70.

Revelation overrides logical reasoning, as Paul makes very clear in 1 Cor. 1.

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The Holy Spirit awakens us to Christ. Where is logic?

[Annie]

Good question, Covenanter. Something to think about...I do think that one's answer to this question depends on his/her view of Christian apologetics. My personal belief is that logic cannot "lead" us to doctrine. We accept the doctrine as it is stated in the Bible. We do this by faith, not logic. However, Christian doctrine is not unreasonable nor irrational.

[dantheman2]

Good question, Covenanter. Something to think about...I do think that one's answer to this question depends on his/her view of Christian apologetics. My personal belief is that logic cannot "lead" us to doctrine. We accept the doctrine as it is stated in the Bible. We do this by faith, not logic. However, Christian doctrine is not unreasonable nor irrational.

Do you really not see how important logic is to the Word of God?

[dantheman2]

We have to be very careful with our Scriptural logic, & follow where the Bible leads, & not impose our reasoning on God's revelation.

The concept of the Trinity is understood by revelation, not logic.

Logic says the white horse man in Rev. 6 is the all-conquering Lamb, because in Rev. 19 there is no doubt, yet some use logic to see him as the antichrist.

Simple logic says the 70 weeks are 490 years, ending around 33 AD, yet some use other logic & see an indefinite gap between 69 & 70.

Revelation overrides logical reasoning, as Paul makes very clear in 1 Cor. 1.

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The Holy Spirit awakens us to Christ. Where is logic?

I can't believe just how blind you are being.

[Seth Doty]

I think logic is important in reading and interpreting the scriptures, but the funny thing is the type of logic that is required is the type of logic in the mind of God. It is logical all right, but it is a high form of logic that the natural man cannot receive or even recognize as logical.

"Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

"1 Corinthians 2:12-14 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth °; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

I would compare different levels of logic to different types of math. The higher forms of math are as completely logical as are lower forms of math, but if all you have ever known is simple arithmetic and you are suddenly presented with something like quantum mechanics you not only are not going to understand it you would hardly recognize it as mathematics at all because it is an entirely different type of math that you are not familiar with.

The only way your going to be able to properly apply the proper form of logic in the scriptures is with the mind of God. The failure to do that is why so many people can look at the same passage and come to entirely different and contradicting conclusions about the logical meaning of a given passage.

[Annie]

Do you really not see how important logic is to the Word of God?

I don't know what you're asking, Dan. Care to elaborate? What Scriptures should inform our understanding about this? Edited April 8, 2011 by Annie

[Guest]

We have to be very careful with our Scriptural logic, & follow where the Bible leads, & not impose our reasoning on God's revelation.

The concept of the Trinity is understood by revelation, not logic.

Logic says the white horse man in Rev. 6 is the all-conquering Lamb, because in Rev. 19 there is no doubt, yet some use logic to see him as the antichrist.

Simple logic says the 70 weeks are 490 years, ending around 33 AD, yet some use other logic & see an indefinite gap between 69 & 70.

Revelation overrides logical reasoning, as Paul makes very clear in 1 Cor. 1.

18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The Holy Spirit awakens us to Christ. Where is logic?

Whose logic...your's or mine; from whence did it come and is it milk or meat?

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[Covenanter]

Paul had trouble with opponents developing his logic with their own perverse logic - to their own destruction.

Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
6: 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Our logic MUST be restrained & guided by Scripture. We dare not use logic to teach error.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned:

Wonderful! But we must not presume on God's love as if it were universal.

18 ... but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
...
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Even now, sinners are living, abiding, under the wrath of God, NOT his love.

[Brother Rick]

Logic is helpful, but it's not the final authority.

Where's the logic in Someone giving his perfect Son to be tortured and killed for people who hate Him?

[heartstrings]

logic is important. It is the way we reason. God gave us that abilty and with that ability comes responsibility. Because the Bible says "come let us reason together saith the Lord". There is also faulty logic and reasoning because the Bible says there is a way that seemeth right unto a man". But there is no excuse because the Bible also says that we know good and evil. One's conscience can even be seared and or we can be turned over to a reprobate mind. and it also says not to trust in our own understanding. But if we acknowlege God and diligently seek wisdom and ASK for understanding from Him, along with time and maturity we can rightly discern His word and get what we need. But to be ABLE to go that route, we must first be born again.


Of whom [Jesus] we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. – Hebrews 5:11-14

Edited April 8, 2011 by heartstrings

[HappyChristian]

When we apply human logic to scripture, problems arise. God is a very precise, logical God, but, as has been pointed out, our thoughts are not His, etc. Therefore, we must conform our logic to His...and that has to start with faith - which is antithetical to human logic.

In one of my favorite verses, God shows that our faith begins with accepting His logic: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18

God's covenants are always logical. They must be accepted by humans by obedience, which is really just faith in action.

Rick, your question fits into this category. Because our thoughts are not God's, His logic also is not ours. I don't believe God finds it illogical at all that He sent His Son. We do because our minds are finite. Again, our faith begins with accepting God's logic....

Ha! heart...great minds.... :clapping:

[dantheman2]

I don't know what you're asking, Dan. Care to elaborate? What Scriptures should inform our understanding about this?

Annie,

I don't believe we have the space to have a course on logic. I suggest, in the kindest way I know how, that you might buy some books on logic. They are very helpful and help one understand the Word more clearly.

[Annie]

Annie,

I don't believe we have the space to have a course on logic. I suggest, in the kindest way I know how, that you might buy some books on logic. They are very helpful and help one understand the Word more clearly.

I believe I know a bit about logic...If p, then q...etc. It's been awhile since I've had formal training in it. I guess my question didn't have as much to do with "logic" proper as the place that logic has in determining doctrine...the tension between logic and faith...and which comes first when dealing with Scriptural matters.

[JerryNumbers]

When we apply human logic to scripture, problems arise. God is a very precise, logical God, but, as has been pointed out, our thoughts are not His, etc. Therefore, we must conform our logic to His...and that has to start with faith - which is antithetical to human logic.

In one of my favorite verses, God shows that our faith begins with accepting His logic: "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18

God's covenants are always logical. They must be accepted by humans by obedience, which is really just faith in action.

Rick, your question fits into this category. Because our thoughts are not God's, His logic also is not ours. I don't believe God finds it illogical at all that He sent His Son. We do because our minds are finite. Again, our faith begins with accepting God's logic....

Ha! heart...great minds....

Amen on what I placed in bold letters! Yet it seems some may disagree with this truth.

1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 ¶ Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Human logic is from below. Human logic is not of God.

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Human logic, wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

Jas 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
Jas 3:16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

We must use wisdom that comes from above, not human logic.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Human logic, wisdom from this world, is not God's thoughts, and will not lead to God's truths.

[dantheman2]

I believe I know a bit about logic...If p, then q...etc. It's been awhile since I've had formal training in it. I guess my question didn't have as much to do with "logic" proper as the place that logic has in determining doctrine...the tension between logic and faith...and which comes first when dealing with Scriptural matters.

I would suggest that they go hand in hand. What faith do I have if it is believing in something which makes not sense whatever. For example: I believe that God made everything including man. Is that logical? Yes and I can present logical evidence (logical argument) to demonstrate it. I can look at other issues in the Word and make logical arguments from the Word. The Lord Jesus used logic in His discussions/teachings. Why should I do any less?