Discussion Topic - Can Lying Or Stealing Ever Be Acceptable?

[Psalms18_28]

I don't think God asked "Please lie for me"

He let those people in the bible make their own decision on how to handle the situation.

John, I wanted to point out that it isn't really about fear of man is why some people lie in a abusive situation. Fear of man would be more like wanting his approval(worldly things, cool, awesome, don't want to be called a dork...type of things) , in my opinion. In this case, It's fear of pain (rather on themselves or their loved ones). Who doesn't fear pain? People lie because they just don't trust man NOT to harm them in a abusive way. But they can trust God because he already know and will not harm them. It is absolutely pointless to lie to God. Now, if they decided NOT to have anything to do with God..they have no idea what it is like without God, very tormental and painful because he is not there to hold everything for them.
I'm not saying it's ok to lie. But people do it anyway for the greater good, I suppose. It's better if we tell the truth in begin with so we don't have anything to hide. Somewhere in the bible it says the truth about yourself (sin) will find you out and the truth will set you free. It's better to tell the truth because abusive people usually go in a bigger rage if they find they have been lied to.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Psalms18_28

[John81]

I don't think God asked "Please lie for me"

He let those people in the bible make their own decision on how to handle the situation.

John, I wanted to point out that it isn't really about fear of man is why some people lie in a abusive situation. Fear of man would be more like wanting his approval(worldly things, cool, awesome, don't want to be called a dork...type of things) , in my opinion. In this case, It's fear of pain (rather on themselves or their loved ones). Who doesn't fear pain? People lie because they just don't trust man NOT to harm them in a abusive way. But they can trust God because he already know and will not harm them. It is absolutely pointless to lie to God. Now, if they decided NOT to have anything to do with God..they have no idea what it is like without God, very tormental and painful because he is not there to hold everything for them.
I'm not saying it's ok to lie. But people do it anyway for the greater good, I suppose. It's better if we tell the truth in begin with so we don't have anything to hide. Somewhere in the bible it says the truth will find you out and the truth will set you free. It's better to tell the truth because abusive people usually go in a bigger rage if they find they have been lied to.

I understand what you are saying and as you say, it's always better to tell the truth because that's what God tells us. To lie is always wrong.

Jesus said we should not fear man who can only harm us temporarily but rather we should fear God who has power over us for eternity.

You are correct, people don't want to feel pain but if we look to eternity and consider the "hurt" we inflict upon our God when we sin and the fact we should be more concerned about our standing with God than our personal well-being in this world then we should be quick to speak the truth or remain silent.

Jesus told us ahead of time that if we stand true to Him we WILL suffer persecution. Whether that persecution comes from being attacked for speaking the Gospel, speaking the truth rather than a lie or refusing to join in the wickedness of the world, it's all a part of the Christian life.

American Christians especially seem to have the idea that Christianity is supposed to be comfortable. That Christians should be respected and folks should admire our stands and not oppose us.

Some of this stems from the fact that during much of Americas past Christianity was the norm or at least Christian principles and ways were the norm. That is no longer true and thus the persecution aspect that wasn't there in years gone by comes as a shock to many. Another aspect of this comes from false preachers who proclaim that if we are walking right with God we won't face prOBlems or we will only face minor prOBlems.

The Christianity Christ speaks of and God informs us about in His Word comes with a very high set of standards God expects us to endeavor to live by. At the same time, persecution which could come in many forms is something we should expect and be prepared to deal with in Christ.

We in America especially want an easy-chair form of Christianity rather than the biblical form which says we give our entire selves to Christ, we submit to Christ in all things putting our hearts and minds into pursuing holiness and standing bold for Christ in good times as well as in times of persecution which we are not only to expect but to rejoice in when we are in it.

May we truely give our all to Christ, immerse ourselves in His Word and walk according to His will in our lives facing all things courageougly in Christ.

[Psalms18_28]

I understand what you are saying and as you say, it's always better to tell the truth because that's what God tells us. To lie is always wrong.

Jesus said we should not fear man who can only harm us temporarily but rather we should fear God who has power over us for eternity.

You are correct, people don't want to feel pain but if we look to eternity and consider the "hurt" we inflict upon our God when we sin and the fact we should be more concerned about our standing with God than our personal well-being in this world then we should be quick to speak the truth or remain silent.

Jesus told us ahead of time that if we stand true to Him we WILL suffer persecution. Whether that persecution comes from being attacked for speaking the Gospel, speaking the truth rather than a lie or refusing to join in the wickedness of the world, it's all a part of the Christian life.

American Christians especially seem to have the idea that Christianity is supposed to be comfortable. That Christians should be respected and folks should admire our stands and not oppose us.

Some of this stems from the fact that during much of Americas past Christianity was the norm or at least Christian principles and ways were the norm. That is no longer true and thus the persecution aspect that wasn't there in years gone by comes as a shock to many. Another aspect of this comes from false preachers who proclaim that if we are walking right with God we won't face prOBlems or we will only face minor prOBlems.

The Christianity Christ speaks of and God informs us about in His Word comes with a very high set of standards God expects us to endeavor to live by. At the same time, persecution which could come in many forms is something we should expect and be prepared to deal with in Christ.

We in America especially want an easy-chair form of Christianity rather than the biblical form which says we give our entire selves to Christ, we submit to Christ in all things putting our hearts and minds into pursuing holiness and standing bold for Christ in good times as well as in times of persecution which we are not only to expect but to rejoice in when we are in it.

May we truely give our all to Christ, immerse ourselves in His Word and walk according to His will in our lives facing all things courageougly in Christ.

Why pointing out Americans only?

[John81]

Why pointing out Americans only?

Because what I was talking about especially effects Americans. There are others in the more prosperous nations who are like this as well, but it especially effects Americans.

It's amazing the very different view Christians have in many areas of India, Africa, parts of Asia, etc.

Most members here are American or are from the Western, comfortable nations.

If you have more questions I'll get back to you later, I have an appointment to go to now. Thank you for your time.

[DennisD]

Many bring up the issue of "Thou shalt not Kill" and what's the difference between killing someone to save your family for example and lying to save your family. It's ok to kill in self-defense, maybe war (see Luke 3:14 below), and the death penalty. I think the huge difference is God commanded people to kill, commanded us to kill those that committed certain crimes (Genesis 9:6). But, I don't know of any scripture that God told anyone to tell a lie.


Luke 3:13-15 (King James Version)

13And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you.

14And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

15And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;

This scripture above has always alluded me but someone explained to me that the key word is violence. To violate someone. I would consider pre-meditated killing of innocents in war to be violence and violating. If you are on a foot patrol and come across men and they start firing on you and then you kill one of them it wouldn't be violence or violating in the strictest sense.

[DennisD]

Not sure why I hit add reply in the middle of at thought. The only thing I was going to add is in that scripture the soldiers are told to be content with their wages. Doesn't that mean to keep being a soldier and be happy with your pay? To be a soldier you have to kill so it seems to me that is saying killing in war is permissible.

[Psalms18_28]

we have to remember that some the verses are in the OT before Christ.

[Psalms18_28]

Not sure why I hit add reply in the middle of at thought. The only thing I was going to add is in that scripture the soldiers are told to be content with their wages. Doesn't that mean to keep being a soldier and be happy with your pay? To be a soldier you have to kill so it seems to me that is saying killing in war is permissible.

Most of the time, these soldier don't kill out of rage, but kill because they OBey their leader.

[Crushmaster]

Alright, the discussion is closed. Thank you for everyone who participated. If you want to add any final thoughts, you may, but please be respectful. Do not post it if you do not think the Lord would want you to.

God bless,
Joel.

*Ahem*.

The posts done after this look like more than "final thoughts" to me. The reason this needs to be ended is because the Word of God has been put forth, and there is nothing more that can be done than that. It's just a waste of time.

You can choose to ignore His Word or heed it.
God bless,
Joel.

[Alimantado]

It's just a waste of time.

Here's my 'final thought'. It's been three days since this thread was started and now you have called further dialogue a waste of time. I am thankful to God that he put Christians on this forum that didn't think it was a 'waste of time' talking to me when I wasn't convicted of the truth they set forth after three days or after three weeks or even after three years. If I go back through my early posts on this forum, from before I was saved, I can see that I asked the same sort of impertinent questions again and again--questions that no doubt people on here had heard many times before. Yet people mostly answered them with patience and forbearance. As I grow in Christ I'm sure I will continue to question God's truth; I pray that those same people will continue to be patient with me, just as God is.

John and Angie are clearly having a discussion that's worthwhile to them. If I may, who are you to say it's a waste of time? Just because you have dictated that it's 'final thoughts' time, does that mean that everyone else is ready to wrap up? Does it mean you know that no contributor and no lurker has been given pause for thought by what's been said here? Hope you can see what point I'm trying to make with these questions--sorry if they seem confontational.

[Alimantado]

"Confontational". Is that when typesetters get angry with each other?

[Crushmaster]

Here's my 'final thought'. It's been three days since this thread was started and now you have called further dialogue a waste of time. I am thankful to God that he put Christians on this forum that didn't think it was a 'waste of time' talking to me when I wasn't convicted of the truth they set forth after three days or after three weeks or even after three years. If I go back through my early posts on this forum, from before I was saved, I can see that I asked the same sort of impertinent questions again and again--questions that no doubt people on here had heard many times before. Yet people mostly answered them with patience and forbearance. As I grow in Christ I'm sure I will continue to question God's truth; I pray that those same people will continue to be patient with me, just as God is.

John and Angie are clearly having a discussion that's worthwhile to them. If I may, who are you to say it's a waste of time? Just because you have dictated that it's 'final thoughts' time, does that mean that everyone else is ready to wrap up? Does it mean you know that no contributor and no lurker has been given pause for thought by what's been said here? Hope you can see what point I'm trying to make with these questions--sorry if they seem confontational.

Sir,
The Word of God has been put forth in this topic, and has declared all lying and all theft is sin. No more can be done than that.
God bless,
Joel. Edited April 19, 2010 by Crushmaster

[Brother Rick]

Define Impasse:

"Deadlock: a situation in which no progress can be made or no advancement is possible; "reached an impasse on the negotiations"

Edited April 19, 2010 by Rick Schworer

[Alimantado]

Sir,

So then, given that the Word of God on this matter has no doubt been put forth in this forum before and furthermore has been expounded by others before you were even born, why bother beginning this thread at all? Why put forth what has already been put forth? That's the logical consequence of your own argument.

[HappyChristian]

Actually, the Word of God has been used to bring up some interesting points. I agree, Al, that a discussion like this is not a waste of time.

The person who begins a thread may request that the thread be locked. If that happens, then this thread will be locked.