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Discussion Topic - Can Lying Or Stealing Ever Be Acceptable?


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Sir, can you provide Scriptures that substantiate this claim, please?
God bless,
Joel.


Absolutly!

Ex. 1:15-21, "And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
"16": And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live."17": But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. "18": And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? "19": And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. "20": Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. "21": And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses."

The Hebrew midwives were blessed for lying to save lives of these little babies. God blessed them for it. There was no other way out. It was a life or death situation, not a "Do I look fat in this dress?" situation.

Joshua 2:3-7, "And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country. 4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were: 5 And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: whither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them. 6 But she had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof. 7 And the men pursued after them the way to Jordan unto the fords: and as soon as they which pursued after them were gone out, they shut the gate."

Same thing. You can try and paint it out to be something other than what it is, but in both cases people were in situations where they had to lie to protect the life of another. They lied, and they were blessed. You can say they were blessed because of their faith, or whatever, but in the end there's no getting around the fact that the action they performed was lying.

People, please don't twist my words into some kind of accusion that I'm for situation ethics. Unless you have to lie to save your wife's life from a cruel dictator, it's not ok to lie.

Maybe lying isn't "lying" in these cases, maybe we should look at it as "protecting the innocent" or something. I know this stance isn't popular, and some of you are prOBably gearing up to flame me, but you can't ignore what these people did and what God blessed them for.
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The Hebrew midwives were blessed for fearing God rather than Pharoah and refusing to kill the children. LuAnne already clearly explained why Rahab was blessed and it wasn't for committing the sin of telling a lie.

We NEVER have to sin in order for right to happen. Is God's hand so short that he can't protect our loved ones without us resorting to telling lies or stealing?

Scripture is completely clear that to lie is a sin, no exeptions, just as is stealing, committing adultery, murder, and all other sins.

God calls for our OBedience and our trust in Him. We are to keep His Word and trust Him with the outcome.

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Because we live in a sinful world, it is not easy. Like a abusive man is about to hurt your child, it is hard to not be tempt to lie where she is.

Does it make it right? No, but I do everything I can to avoid the situation though. One day, we wouldn't live in a sinful world where there's no fear that cause us to lie and steal in the first place.

Edited by Psalms18_28
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Absolutly!

Ex. 1:15-21, "And the king of Egypt spake to the Hebrew midwives, of which the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah:
"16": And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live."17": But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. "18": And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? "19": And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. "20": Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty. "21": And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses."

The Hebrew midwives were blessed for lying to save lives of these little babies. God blessed them for it. There was no other way out. It was a life or death situation, not a "Do I look fat in this dress?" situation.

Joshua 2:3-7, "And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country. 4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were: 5 And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: whither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them. 6 But she had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof. 7 And the men pursued after them the way to Jordan unto the fords: and as soon as they which pursued after them were gone out, they shut the gate."

Same thing. You can try and paint it out to be something other than what it is, but in both cases people were in situations where they had to lie to protect the life of another. They lied, and they were blessed. You can say they were blessed because of their faith, or whatever, but in the end there's no getting around the fact that the action they performed was lying.

People, please don't twist my words into some kind of accusion that I'm for situation ethics. Unless you have to lie to save your wife's life from a cruel dictator, it's not ok to lie.

Maybe lying isn't "lying" in these cases, maybe we should look at it as "protecting the innocent" or something. I know this stance isn't popular, and some of you are prOBably gearing up to flame me, but you can't ignore what these people did and what God blessed them for.

Sir,
Thank you posting those verses and sharing your thoughts. But, in reading those passages, I see nothing there suggests that God condoned their lying.

God cannot both hate lying, and say so many times, and also condone it. It does not add up. If He said it once that would be enough. When He says that He hates a lying tongue, there is nothing that says "unless one lies for a 'good reason.' "
(Proverbs 19:5) - "A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape."

(Revelation 21:8) - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Notice that in the second verse I posted that it says "all liars." It gives no exceptions.

The Bible references Rahab's act both in Hebrews, and James. Look:
(Hebrews 11:31) - "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace."

(James 2:25) - "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

No mention of lying in these verses.
God bless,
Joel. Edited by Crushmaster
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Because we live in a sinful world, it is not easy. Like a abusive man is about to hurt your child, it is hard to not be tempt to lie where she is.

Does it make it right? No, but I do everything I can to avoid the situation though. One day, we wouldn't live in a sinful world where there's no fear that cause us to lie and steal in the first place.


You hit upon an important point here. When we lie or steal we saying by our actions that we don't trust God enough and in some cases that we fear man more than we fear God. Our fear of God should always be greater than our fear of man. Scripture tells us to fear God rather than man.

There are many reasons and excuses for why we sin (as Suzy pointed out times of war as one of those) but that doesn't make it right. It should be remembered that while many may give into the temptation to lie or steal in these situations there are those few who truly cast their cares upon Jesus and trust their Heavenly Father to care for them and refuse to give in to the temptation to sin by telling a lie or to steal.
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Killing is sin too, but in times of war, its accepted. Why would it be sin to lie to your enemy if its not sin to kill him?

Well, ma'am, that's actually not true - "murder" is a sin, not necessarily just "killing." God commanded the Israelites to kill - but He never commanded them to lie.

Lying and killing cannot really be compared.
God bless,
Joel.
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Sir,
Thank you posting those verses and sharing your thoughts. But, in reading those passages, I see nothing there suggests that God condoned their lying.

God cannot both hate lying, and say so many times, and also condone it. It does not add up. If He said it once that would be enough. When He says that He hates a lying tongue, there is nothing that says "unless one lies for a 'good reason.' "
(Proverbs 19:5) - "A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape."

(Revelation 21:8) - "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Notice that in the second verse I posted that it says "all liars." It gives no exceptions.

The Bible references Rahab's act both in Hebrews, and James. Look:
(Hebrews 11:31) - "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace."

(James 2:25) - "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"

No mention of lying in these verses.
God bless,
Joel.



amen.gif & amen.gif


Right.

The human mind can reason out, and come to the conclusion that its OK to lie. But when one starts lying, they have lost their faith in God and have put their faith in a lie. Besides that, a person cannot just tell one lie, it takes many more lies to back up the 1st one.


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Killing is sin too, but in times of war, its accepted. Why would it be sin to lie to your enemy if its not sin to kill him?


The actual meaning of thou shalt not kill is more clearly understood as thou shalt not murder. God gives examples in His law where the killing of another is not a sin. This isn't the case when it comes to telling a lie. The law is also specific that only those killings the law of God says are not murder are to be viewed in that way, other killings are murder and the punishment for murder applies.

What God calls murder is always sin just as any lie is a sin.
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Killing is sin too, but in times of war, its accepted. Why would it be sin to lie to your enemy if its not sin to kill him?


It's not just times of war that it's accepted and others have already pointed out murder and killing are two separate issues. What about the death penalty? God invented the death penalty and I believe He has shown us that is acceptable in certain situations.
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I am afraid I have to agree with Kitagrl. The ten commandments say thou shalt not kill. Yet God told them in times of war to kill. He even said to kill the children at times. Does that make it alright to kill, NO, not unless something such as war is going on. Then lets consider thou shalt not steal. What does steal mean? Is it not the taking away the personal goods of another??? Now what does the word spoil mean?? Plunder, spoil one of his goods. Both definitions are reworded from Websters 1828. What is the difference in them?? War!!! Nothing more nothing less. If it is not war time spoiling would be stealing. And yet God not only allowed spoiling, but commanded it to the point that at Jericho the spoils were His for the temple treasury. At other times he allowed the children of Israel to take the spoil unto themselves. Numbers 31 fits this perfectly. It has them going to battle. They take the spoil, which included people, showing that what they took still had a female owner alive. They are then told all the male children and what of the females were to be killed. He then tells them how to divide the spoil. If the people had just went into the villages and took what they divided it would be stealing. War changes many things. Also when I think of ones such as Rahab, I think of a child. If your child knew you wanted something protected, so they lied to be sure it was safe, what would be your reaction. Would it be telling others how they did lie, but then saying they had faith in you wanting it protected so building them up??


Happychristian said "Rahab wasn't blessed for her lying - she was blessed for her faith." and John agreed, but then John said "When we lie or steal we saying by our actions that we don't trust God enough and in some cases that we fear man more than we fear God. Our fear of God should always be greater than our fear of man. Scripture tells us to fear God rather than man." Now how do these go together? If she was blessed for her faith why did she show such a lack of faith by lying? Happy also said "However, it was her request to be spared, and her OBedience in placing the scarlet cord (picture of the blood of Christ)& being in her house when she was told to be, that saved her life." Yet in the passages Crush mentioned "(Hebrews 11:31) - "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace."

(James 2:25) - "Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?". the Bible does not mention the scarlet thread or her request, but it does mention her receiving the spies, and her sending them out another way. Now I admit it does not mention the lie, yet it praises her for the moves on either side of the lie. And I believe there are not many of us going to praise our children for the actions that surround, and really are made up by, them doing something we find worthy of punishment. How would Rahab have sent the spies back out if she had told the men they were on her roof? Could God have sent the men away anyway? Yes I suppose he could have if you want to look at the faith that way. He also could have delivered all of the land to Israel without them lifting a sword and killing the people. Was it a lack of faith for them to go armed? No. And I am not so sure it was a lack of faith on Rahabs part either.

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The actual meaning of thou shalt not kill is more clearly understood as thou shalt not murder. God gives examples in His law where the killing of another is not a sin. This isn't the case when it comes to telling a lie. The law is also specific that only those killings the law of God says are not murder are to be viewed in that way, other killings are murder and the punishment for murder applies.

What God calls murder is always sin just as any lie is a sin.


Just wondering, are we questioning the KJV here? Are you saying that murder would make a better translation or is that my imagination? Yes I know we need to look at context to see that it is more of what we call murder. But even then war killing is very different. We think of killing women and children even in war as murder. Yet the Children of Israel were commanded to kill even the women and children. We must consider the fact that war changes rules of how we live!!! Edited by rancher824
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What actually changes us is Jesus.

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.


Mt 7:12 ¶ Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.


1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

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