Discussion Topic - Can Lying Or Stealing Ever Be Acceptable?

[Crushmaster]

It is possible for one to steal or one to lie and not commit a wrong? Yes, or no? Please support your views with Scripture.
God bless,
Joel.

[DennisD]

Tough question but I don't believe so. I think even if you are stealing food to feed your family or lieing to someone so not to hurt their feelings is still considered wrong. I think at that point you could argue you weren't having faith that God would take care of things and you were relying on your own sensibilities and/or feelings.

[John81]

No. Scripture is very clear that to lie is a sin; no exceptions. Scripture is also very clear that to steal is a sin; no exceptions.

Whatever "good motives" one might have or "good reason" one might have doesn't change the fact that to lie or steal is a sin.

[ptwild]

It's hard to argue that it is ever justifiable (to God) for us to steal. With lieing, I believe that our intents come into play when considering the morality of it. Take works of fiction (books, movies . . .), while not being factual or "true," I don't look at them as lies. If the intent of the author is to entertain, or teach a leason, I don't think I could make a good arguement that he or she is lieing, despite the fact that they are stating something that is not true. The same with situations in which one's spouse might ask: "does this dress make me look fat," or "do you like my hair cut." If you lie to them for the sake of gaining some advantage over them or to deceive them in some sinister way, then I would say it is wrong. On the other hand, if you lie to them, out of love, for the sake of their self esteem, I think a good argument could be made that it is justifiable.

[John81]

It's hard to argue that it is ever justifiable (to God) for us to steal. With lieing, I believe that our intents come into play when considering the morality of it. Take works of fiction (books, movies . . .), while not being factual or "true," I don't look at them as lies. If the intent of the author is to entertain, or teach a leason, I don't think I could make a good arguement that he or she is lieing, despite the fact that they are stating something that is not true. The same with situations in which one's spouse might ask: "does this dress make me look fat," or "do you like my hair cut." If you lie to them for the sake of gaining some advantage over them or to deceive them in some sinister way, then I would say it is wrong. On the other hand, if you lie to them, out of love, for the sake of their self esteem, I think a good argument could be made that it is justifiable.

Fiction isn't a lie because it's presented as fiction, not fact.

There is no biblical grounds for telling a lie "out of love" or to make someone feel better. If we are asked a question we have the option to not answer or to give an honest answer in a kind way.

Scripture declares sin is sin with no room for declaring that some "intent" ever negates this.

[Annie]

But (and perhaps CM was just waiting for someone to bring this up) what about Rahab and the Hebrew midwives, who lied and were rewarded by God? I'm not expressing a viewpoint here...just throwing this out for discussion.

John, where does Scripture make it clear that "to lie is a sin, no exceptions"? Yes, it tells us not to bear false witness against our neighbors (which is different from "just lying"), and it tells us that we in the body of Christ should "lie not one to another." It says that a lying tongue is an abomination to the Lord...but how do these Scriptures square with the examples I mentioned above? Apparently, what the midwives did (lie to the Egyptians) was not an abomination to the Lord, who actually rewarded them as well as rewarding Rahab, who lied to the soldiers of Jericho.

What about those who lied to Nazis about hiding Jews? (Even if they didn't lie with their mouths, they lied in that they hid Jews and gave the appearance that they were not in the house.)

Edited April 16, 2010 by Annie

[John81]

Thou shalt not steal. - Exodus 20:15 (KJV)

Lie not one to another; seeking that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; Colossians 3:9

Rahab was not rewarded for telling a lie.

[HappyChristian]

Rahab wasn't blessed for her lying - she was blessed for her faith. She purposely misdirected the soldiers so that the spies would be safe. However, it was her request to be spared, and her OBedience in placing the scarlet cord (picture of the blood of Christ)& being in her house when she was told to be, that saved her life. She is in the lineage of Christ, which is a wonderful blessing - but, again, it wasn't her lying, it was her faith.

I don't believe the midwives were blessed for their lying, either. I believe they were blessed for sparing the children. Could they have done it without lying? Who knows - we can ask God when we get to Heaven.

Lying is an abomination to God - He doesn't give any exceptions. But throughout scripture we see fallible humans who do things that God tells us in His Word is wrong: and they are still blessed. Because of their sin? Of course not! It is because of their faith.

The Bible is full of verses which condemn lying, with none to indicate that "yes, that dress looks lovely on you" when it really looks horrid is acceptable by God. Intent is simply another way of saying situational ethics. I remember one of my professors in college who asked the class, "Is honesty the best policy?" Several people discussed it and declared that of course it was! He pointed out something very interesting. He said that actually "honesty is the best policy" is a very unscriptural statement. He said that honesty is the ONLY policy according to God's Word. Again, there were those who lied and who were blessed afterward...but not because of their lies.

As to the Jews being hidden: I don't see hiding people from being destroyed as being deceptive. Perhaps others would because the "law" dictated that they should be destroyed. But there is a higher law. The TenBoom family comes to mind. They hid Jews because they knew that sending them to their destruction was against God. However, there was a member of the family who was very worried about being asked if there were Jewish men in the home. She and her family were sheltering two who dressed like women to remain hidden (again something that could be called deceptive). When the Nazis came to her door, they asked if there were Jewish men in the home. Before anyone could answer, she said yes. The others were horrified, but then she began to laugh in a maniacal way (not on purpose - she was just so very scared). The Nazis thought she was crazy and left without investigating further. I think that's pretty good proof that God blesses honesty.

Again, the Jewish holocaust is a sticky thing: would situational ethics be what that is all about? What would each one of us do if telling the truth would cost the life of one of our family members? I would hope that I would always be honest, but I have to say: if my telling the truth would get my son or my hubby killed, I don't know what I would do. I know what my hubby would tell me: be honest. Just like God says.

Stealing is also wrong, according to scripture. Rachel got JacOB's family in trouble with his FIL when she stole an idol. The Bible tells us that stealing to satisfy hunger is one thing - and yet it still needs to be repaid. "Let him that stole steal no more." Pretty plain. Stealing is also lying...when you steal something you claim it to be your own. That isn't truth.

You bring up some interesting topics, Crush!

[lettheredeemedsayso]

Joel you are correct stealing and lying are sins.

[JerryNumbers]

How can it be right to do wrong to make right come out of it?

If we lie about some small thing we have already proved we are liars, its just a matter of time before we lie about something of great importance. Remember, the thief usually starts out stealing small things, them he finds his self getting away with it, them he starts stealing large things.

And John mentioned this verse.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Ro 13:11 ¶ And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Ro 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
Ro 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
Ro 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Lie not to one another, put off concerning the former conservation, if we lie about anything we are reverting back to the old man.

Of course, if we use our human reasoning we can come up with good reasons to lie about many things.

Jg 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Pr 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding

Pr 14:12 ¶ There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Ps 119:163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

Ps 101:7 He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

Ro 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Eph 4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

You can justified lying in your own mind, but be not deceived God does not approve of lying, being deceitful, but hates it.

Be assured, there's many verses that speaks against lying within the pages of the Bible, and the Bible never speaks of lying in a good light.

[Crushmaster]

Thank you for the responses, everyone. Indeed, the Scriptures are clear on this subject; one merely needs to look up lying, lie, lied, etc. to see God does not view it favorably. Same with stealing.

I read this verse a little while ago - I believe I was just flipping through the Bible. Interestingly enough, it speaks on both subjects:
(Proverbs 30:7-9) - "Two things have I required of thee; deny me them not before I die: {8} Remove far from me vanity and lies: give me neither poverty nor riches; feed me with food convenient for me: {9} Lest I be full, and deny thee, and say, Who is the LORD? or lest I be poor, and steal, and take the name of my God in vain."

Everyone who hasn't, feel free to join in!
God bless,
Joel.

[Brother Rick]

Hebrew midwives, Jael and the big spike.

It's ok to lie if it is a literal life or death situation. Those who hid the Jews in the underground railroad were doing the right thing by lying to the Nazis.

People abuse the idea and think it's ok to lie because telling the truth will hurt someone's feelings or something like that.

[Crushmaster]

Hebrew midwives, Jael and the big spike.

It's ok to lie if it is a literal life or death situation. Those who hid the Jews in the underground railroad were doing the right thing by lying to the Nazis.

People abuse the idea and think it's ok to lie because telling the truth will hurt someone's feelings or something like that.

Sir, can you provide Scriptures that substantiate this claim, please?
God bless,
Joel.

[John81]

Hebrew midwives, Jael and the big spike.

It's ok to lie if it is a literal life or death situation. Those who hid the Jews in the underground railroad were doing the right thing by lying to the Nazis.

People abuse the idea and think it's ok to lie because telling the truth will hurt someone's feelings or something like that.

God NEVER needs anyone to sin in order for His will to be done. Scripture commands we be OBedient to the Lord and any time we lie or steal, for whatever reason and regardless of our intent, we are disOBeying God, violating His Word, we are sinning and we are also declaring by our actions that we don't trust God to do right when we OBey Him.

[John81]

Rahab wasn't blessed for her lying - she was blessed for her faith. She purposely misdirected the soldiers so that the spies would be safe. However, it was her request to be spared, and her OBedience in placing the scarlet cord (picture of the blood of Christ)& being in her house when she was told to be, that saved her life. She is in the lineage of Christ, which is a wonderful blessing - but, again, it wasn't her lying, it was her faith.

I don't believe the midwives were blessed for their lying, either. I believe they were blessed for sparing the children. Could they have done it without lying? Who knows - we can ask God when we get to Heaven.

Lying is an abomination to God - He doesn't give any exceptions. But throughout scripture we see fallible humans who do things that God tells us in His Word is wrong: and they are still blessed. Because of their sin? Of course not! It is because of their faith.

The Bible is full of verses which condemn lying, with none to indicate that "yes, that dress looks lovely on you" when it really looks horrid is acceptable by God. Intent is simply another way of saying situational ethics. I remember one of my professors in college who asked the class, "Is honesty the best policy?" Several people discussed it and declared that of course it was! He pointed out something very interesting. He said that actually "honesty is the best policy" is a very unscriptural statement. He said that honesty is the ONLY policy according to God's Word. Again, there were those who lied and who were blessed afterward...but not because of their lies.

As to the Jews being hidden: I don't see hiding people from being destroyed as being deceptive. Perhaps others would because the "law" dictated that they should be destroyed. But there is a higher law. The TenBoom family comes to mind. They hid Jews because they knew that sending them to their destruction was against God. However, there was a member of the family who was very worried about being asked if there were Jewish men in the home. She and her family were sheltering two who dressed like women to remain hidden (again something that could be called deceptive). When the Nazis came to her door, they asked if there were Jewish men in the home. Before anyone could answer, she said yes. The others were horrified, but then she began to laugh in a maniacal way (not on purpose - she was just so very scared). The Nazis thought she was crazy and left without investigating further. I think that's pretty good proof that God blesses honesty.

Again, the Jewish holocaust is a sticky thing: would situational ethics be what that is all about? What would each one of us do if telling the truth would cost the life of one of our family members? I would hope that I would always be honest, but I have to say: if my telling the truth would get my son or my hubby killed, I don't know what I would do. I know what my hubby would tell me: be honest. Just like God says.

Stealing is also wrong, according to scripture. Rachel got JacOB's family in trouble with his FIL when she stole an idol. The Bible tells us that stealing to satisfy hunger is one thing - and yet it still needs to be repaid. "Let him that stole steal no more." Pretty plain. Stealing is also lying...when you steal something you claim it to be your own. That isn't truth.

You bring up some interesting topics, Crush!

Excellent post LuAnne!!!