simple or complex?

[Pastorj]

I agree mostly with CP.

Another great example of why the Greek and Hebrew are important is understanding the use of the words. Some terms are legal terms, other farming, while others are used in other types of occupations. Knowing this helps understand what God is trying to teach us.

Greek and Hebrew are far more precise than English and it is very important to know which word Love comes from. The great thing about the Greek that God chose is that it was a language for the common man. We can understand it with use of aids that are reliable.

We do need to be careful that we are not taking Scripture out of context, or are putting meanings to words that are not found in Scripture.

[DaveW]

I'm not down two strikes you proved my point exactly you had to go to the greek to decided which you thought was appropriate you didn't give the definition you thought was right from the plain english definitions. That is my point exactly you couldn't get the meaning from context and the greek words do convey very different meanings.

C

I "went to the Greek" to show that I am not totally stupid about this.

I DID NOT go to the greek to get the understanding.

The simple reading of it would indicate, that because this is the fruit for the Spirit the love spoken of here would be the highest form of love that you could think of.

That happens to align with the concept portrayed by Agape, but which is the root word, but you can find that meaning from the context alone.

You can also assume that since this is the fruit of the spirit, it is also talking about the best form of joy - not just the joy you might get from your favourite team winning, but somethign more lasting and deeper; and the most comprehensive type of peace - not just the peace that comes from knowing you have done a job well; etc.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that I am NOT anti-helps - if you look at my second post I list a comprehensive library of varying sorts of helps.

My point is that the average person will not be duped into a wrong meaning because he doesn't have access to these assistances.

The Greek will NOT give you a different meaning.

I also have an interlinear Greek, KJV lexicon which I use - mostly in fact to find the emphasis in the phrases which the greek structure sometimes makes more plain (this one has the english words typed under the greek in that order).

I am most definitely NOT against using the Greek altogether, it is the "superior attitude" that often accompanies those who refer to the Greek often that I am against.
And it is also the ones who use the Greek to sound like they are more Authoritative - they use all the phrases and terms of the techinical jargon, which they hope will confuse people into accepting their argument because they feel out of their depth.

Some people use it as a tool of intimidation.

Look at my posts carefully and you will find that I am not against Lexicons, concordances, dictionaries, commentaries, expositions, or preacher's sermons from days past.

These are tools which can and should be used in the full and proper study - but they are often abused in the search for confusing the opposition in an argument - and often without substance.

So there you go - I am not arguing against the use of these things at all - just the MISUSE of them.

[speerjp1]

I "went to the Greek" to show that I am not totally stupid about this.

I DID NOT go to the greek to get the understanding.

The simple reading of it would indicate, that because this is the fruit for the Spirit the love spoken of here would be the highest form of love that you could think of.

That happens to align with the concept portrayed by Agape, but which is the root word, but you can find that meaning from the context alone.

You can also assume that since this is the fruit of the spirit, it is also talking about the best form of joy - not just the joy you might get from your favourite team winning, but somethign more lasting and deeper; and the most comprehensive type of peace - not just the peace that comes from knowing you have done a job well; etc.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that I am NOT anti-helps - if you look at my second post I list a comprehensive library of varying sorts of helps.

My point is that the average person will not be duped into a wrong meaning because he doesn't have access to these assistances.

The Greek will NOT give you a different meaning.

I also have an interlinear Greek, KJV lexicon which I use - mostly in fact to find the emphasis in the phrases which the greek structure sometimes makes more plain (this one has the english words typed under the greek in that order).

I am most definitely NOT against using the Greek altogether, it is the "superior attitude" that often accompanies those who refer to the Greek often that I am against.
And it is also the ones who use the Greek to sound like they are more Authoritative - they use all the phrases and terms of the techinical jargon, which they hope will confuse people into accepting their argument because they feel out of their depth.

Some people use it as a tool of intimidation.

Look at my posts carefully and you will find that I am not against Lexicons, concordances, dictionaries, commentaries, expositions, or preacher's sermons from days past.

These are tools which can and should be used in the full and proper study - but they are often abused in the search for confusing the opposition in an argument - and often without substance.

So there you go - I am not arguing against the use of these things at all - just the MISUSE of them.

I don't think anyone has asserted that we shouldn't study: we are simply taking a stand against the misuse of language study in order to contrive something that is not gathered by the plain reading of God's word.

[flaminlayman]

Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures

Luk 24:44

[SimplyComplex]

I haven't read the thread, but I just have to say I find the title really funny because of my screen name :lol:

[DaveW]

I haven't read the thread' date=' but I just have to say I find the title really funny because of my screen name [/quote']



I chuckled a bit too as I only noticed your username a few days after I posted it :lol:

[JerryNumbers]

I "went to the Greek" to show that I am not totally stupid about this.

I DID NOT go to the greek to get the understanding.

The simple reading of it would indicate, that because this is the fruit for the Spirit the love spoken of here would be the highest form of love that you could think of.

That happens to align with the concept portrayed by Agape, but which is the root word, but you can find that meaning from the context alone.

You can also assume that since this is the fruit of the spirit, it is also talking about the best form of joy - not just the joy you might get from your favourite team winning, but somethign more lasting and deeper; and the most comprehensive type of peace - not just the peace that comes from knowing you have done a job well; etc.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that I am NOT anti-helps - if you look at my second post I list a comprehensive library of varying sorts of helps.

My point is that the average person will not be duped into a wrong meaning because he doesn't have access to these assistances.

The Greek will NOT give you a different meaning.

I also have an interlinear Greek, KJV lexicon which I use - mostly in fact to find the emphasis in the phrases which the greek structure sometimes makes more plain (this one has the english words typed under the greek in that order).

I am most definitely NOT against using the Greek altogether, it is the "superior attitude" that often accompanies those who refer to the Greek often that I am against.
And it is also the ones who use the Greek to sound like they are more Authoritative - they use all the phrases and terms of the techinical jargon, which they hope will confuse people into accepting their argument because they feel out of their depth.

Some people use it as a tool of intimidation.

Look at my posts carefully and you will find that I am not against Lexicons, concordances, dictionaries, commentaries, expositions, or preacher's sermons from days past.

These are tools which can and should be used in the full and proper study - but they are often abused in the search for confusing the opposition in an argument - and often without substance.

So there you go - I am not arguing against the use of these things at all - just the MISUSE of them.

Its so true, some use their Greek to intimidate, to make people think they are very intelligent and superior to them, and as you said to try to get them to accept what they teach as truth.

I have heard some preachers, if they did not explain what words meant in Greek, their sermons would not have been more than 10 to 15 minutes long. To many use such stuff as filler.

Many churches will add the requirement of a diploma to the qualifications of being a pastor, seems to me that would be adding to the Bible for God has already set the qualifications.

That said, I'm not against Bible education, but one really has to be careful where they get their education. And a Bible school can be great today, them 3 years down the road that can change completely.

Who God calls He will equip.

4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

6 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.

7 But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.

8 Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.

Jer 1:4-8 (KJV)

10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue.

11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.

Ex 4:10-12 (KJV)

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Cor 1:25-29 (KJV)

These verses along with others really help me when God called me to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ March 1997 at the age of 51 for I had no Bible education, except for what I had learned on my own and in Bible study at church thru the years, plus a private Bible study one of my pastors had guided me thru one night per week for 2 years back in the mid 80's.

I would say my main complaint against a couple of my past pastors thru the years really did not give me nothing to apply to my life even thought they were teaching the Bible. The pastor who took me thru 2 years of private Bible study, he was my pastor for a bit over 5 years, of which I learned very much being one on one with him. But even him being very knowledgeable about the Bible, many of his sermons where way over my head and it was hard to apply many of them to my everyday life.

I try as best I can to feed, with God's holding me up, our church members with something they can apply to their life right them, giving them assurance, confidence, encouragement, and trying to help them gain more faith in God and our Savior.

[SouthernGal]

DaveW,
I couldn't agree with you more.....yes, we are to study God's word, but that doesn't mean we have to have a degree to understand the scripture's meaning. The holy spirit will guide us in understanding and well as convict us in what his word says.

Some of the best pastors I've heard didn't have a master's degree.....they were simply called of God to proclaim the gospel. I've also heard pastors that were so well educated (doctorate degree) that they no longer believed that God's word was infallible.

[dwayner79]

I basically agree with Kubel and a good bit of cowboypreacher on this. I want to shift, however, to a slightly different approach to answer the OP. Here is the OP and a point by point rebuttal:

Feel free to accuse me of being simple, but when I read the Bible I read what it says.

That makes sense

I don't try to read what I think it might say.

Good because it does not matter what you think it says

I don't analyze every single word, and investigate it's base meanings, and examine it for possible re-interpretations of meaning.

hmmm... going downhill here. There is a point where study means study

I believe that I can give the Bible to my 13 year old and he will read and understand truth from it, just as I will. (He is saved by the way.)

The level in which a 13yo (or younger) can comprehend is certainly enough to have saving faith, but that does not mean that the time will come when we must begin serious study of the Word of God

I find it interesting that people find all sorts of issues where they believe that you have to have a master's degree in musical theory, or in Greek or in Hebrew, or in physics and chemistry if you are to understand properly.

This sounds ranty... I will leave it alone

What ever happened to "faith as a little child"?

ranty again, but see above about saving faith

I'm afraid that I find it hard to believe that God would make things so complex that only a professor of multiple degrees could possibly understand His will and meaning from His Word.

This is where I differ from the rest. Our society is stupid. We have no concept of language, we are unread, unlearned, and unable to perform basic hermenutics. The church has done a horrible job equipping the people to be knowledgeable in these areas.

Especially when His chosen Apostles included two brawling fishermen amongst others.

He did not require His prime vessels to be university educated, although of course Paul was a very educated man.

Rhetoric, IMO. Besides the language issue, (it would have been their native language) they had first hand knowledge, and they were still in the culture.

Don't get me wrong - I am not against the tools of language study, nor the usefulness of musical knowledge - just against the often held view that the average person is somehow less able to understand than the one who can use Greek.

You keep talking about music, so there must be a hidden purpose for this post beyond what I am able to deduce.

All told, we have gotten lazily spoon fed what to believe, and across the board (secular and religious fields) we are not studying like we should. No wonder people take to the holy scriptures so loosely. I agree that we do not need a college degree... but the church is not teaching the items required to do it. Often it is people with college degrees who have put the energy that every believer should put into learning scripture. That is ashame.

[John81]

DaveW,
I couldn't agree with you more.....yes, we are to study God's word, but that doesn't mean we have to have a degree to understand the scripture's meaning. The holy spirit will guide us in understanding and well as convict us in what his word says.

Some of the best pastors I've heard didn't have a master's degree.....they were simply called of God to proclaim the gospel. I've also heard pastors that were so well educated (doctorate degree) that they no longer believed that God's word was infallible.

:amen:

[John81]

All told, we have gotten lazily spoon fed what to believe, and across the board (secular and religious fields) we are not studying like we should. No wonder people take to the holy scriptures so loosely. I agree that we do not need a college degree... but the church is not teaching the items required to do it. Often it is people with college degrees who have put the energy that every believer should put into learning scripture. That is ashame.

Much of the problem in these regards is due to the lack of discipleship today. Too many churches fail to properly disciple new converts and those new to their church.

Oftentimes a particular church will place a big emphasis on soul-winning (which is great, if done properly) but they fail to follow that up with discipleship.

Does it make sense to go out and witness across the city, come home with claims of 20 souls saved, and then make no effort to disciple those 20 and get them into your church or another godly church?

Why do we leave babes in Christ on their own in the worldly woods surrounded by wolves?

[JerryNumbers]

I'll have to say this, the problem for many is they don't care, will not get their Bibles out and read and study them.

Their trips to church services, if they will go to church, ought to inspired them to want to learn, but one thing for sure, you can't make them learn if they don't want to. Many just do not want to.

And of course we can't really do much about those who fall into the hands of false teaches, many are going to do that no matter what the true teachings Christians do.

Its so easy to say its the Church's fault, its the pastors fault, its the teachers fault, but few there be that will accept personal blame.

I know that when it hit me, I studied at home on my own, how many will take the time to do that? I must say this, I know I have not studied near enough, I waste far to much time.

[Lee-Anne]

I know people who have been saved, or in church for many, many years and have little or no bible knowledge. They are religious, and everyone looks up to them as pious christians, but even in basic doctrinal knowledge they have no idea. These are people who attend sound bible preaching IBF churches. It is not the preaching and teaching in these churches that causes them to be babes, but I believe a lack of genuine salavation and personal study. We have to own our own walk with the Lord. We are alone are responsible for own lack of growth, not others. If I am not growing in the Lord I blame myself. Not my husband ( who is also my Pastor :smile ) or the church, or any body else. It is my walk with the Lord. If we are attending a Bible believing, bible teaching church we really have no excuse and having said all this; I am feeling really convicted! :ooops

[JerryNumbers]

I know people who have been saved' date=' or in church for many, many years and have little or no bible knowledge. They are religious, and everyone looks up to them as pious christians, but even in basic doctrinal knowledge they have no idea. These are people who attend sound bible preaching IBF churches. It is not the preaching and teaching in these churches that causes them to be babes, but I believe a lack of genuine salavation and personal study. We have to own our own walk with the Lord. We are alone are responsible for own lack of growth, not others. If I am not growing in the Lord I blame myself. Not my husband ( who is also my Pastor :smile ) or the church, or any body else. It is my walk with the Lord. If we are attending a Bible believing, bible teaching church we really have no excuse and having said all this; I am feeling really convicted! :ooops[/quote']

Well said.

Many have time to make all the ball games, hunting trips, and club meeting & social events, but no time for God's Word.

[ZacharyW]

Would God make the Bible so hard to understand that only "learned" men could understand? As my dad said, I am 13 (turning 14) and can understand what the KJV Bible says and means. I don't need someone (besides God) to tell me what the Bible means.

This is my view. :smile