Charismatic calvinists

[MikeWatson1]

I wouldn't call all in the aforementioned title a cult.. but from what I've encountered it's some of the most aggressive Christian's I know.

Not only are they saying that someone has been prechosen for eternal life , but this person WILL do good works, will speak in tongues, WILL cast out demons etc..

 

So if you aren't charismatic or continuously doing good works.. they will say never saved.

Its loading all sorts of other things onto receiving eternal life as requirements to 'prove' you got it.

Edited June 11, 2022 by 360watt

[BrotherTony]

And, to them I would say that the Bible says that tongues are given as a sign, not for the believer but for the unbeliever. Charismatics always seem to hate the verse that contains this. They also hate the one where Paul says he would rather speak in a known tongue and edify the body rather than speak thousands of words in an unknown tongue. I have too many relatives in the Charismatic and Assembly movement, and they never question my beliefs on tongues because they don't want to talk about the Bible in depth. 

[Jerry]

God's Word indicates that even in the first century He never gave the gift of tongues to everyone - so for those who believe it is a sign of salvation, they are missing the boat (especially when you consider that the "gift of tongues" they are using is not the same as the gift of tongues as found in the Bible (especially the book of Acts and 1 Corinthians 12-14).

1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

1 Corinthians 12:28-31 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

[1Timothy115]

I always heard the "unknown tongue" was a language from another nation, not what the charismatics make it out to be. The one scripture they point to more frequently is 1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." and Paul is speaking of himself in this instance not of the church's ability. I've never been able to understand how they can base a doctrine on 1 Corinthians 12 and 13 and the Apostles in Acts.

[MikeWatson1]

Yea I get that 1 Corinthians 13 alone isn't enough to support cessationism, but when you look closely at the early churches and the book of Acts with the process of Gods revelation it becomes obvious the sign gifts at least are not needed anymore.

[Joe Chandler]

On 6/11/2022 at 12:30 PM, Jerry said:

God's Word indicates that even in the first century He never gave the gift of tongues to everyone - so for those who believe it is a sign of salvation, they are missing the boat (especially when you consider that the "gift of tongues" they are using is not the same as the gift of tongues as found in the Bible (especially the book of Acts and 1 Corinthians 12-14).

Careful now. Someone might quote this. I am not charismatic and do believe the sign gifts have expired and I agree with the rest of your post. Please don't take this the wrong way.

Mark 16:15-18   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.  17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;  18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

On 6/12/2022 at 4:08 PM, 1Timothy115 said:

I always heard the "unknown tongue" was a language from another nation, not what the charismatics make it out to be. The one scripture they point to more frequently is 1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." and Paul is speaking of himself in this instance not of the church's ability. I've never been able to understand how they can base a doctrine on 1 Corinthians 12 and 13 and the Apostles in Acts.

I have thought often about that very verse. I think Paul was using hyperbole to make a point. All the other times Paul speaks on the subject of languages he outlines the proper way to do it. The charismatics don't follow any of that.  

[MikeWatson1]

6 hours ago, Joe Chandler said:

Careful now. Someone might quote this. I am not charismatic and do believe the sign gifts have expired and I agree with the rest of your post. Please don't take this the wrong way.

Mark 16:15-18   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.  17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;  18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I have thought often about that very verse. I think Paul was using hyperbole to make a point. All the other times Paul speaks on the subject of languages he outlines the proper way to do it. The charismatics don't follow any of that.  

Yes, on another site I often discuss the gifts with Pentecostals and Charismatics.  The people that believe the sign gifts have passed will bring up that many of these people don't go by the guidelines in 1 Corinthians 12-14.  

Their response is usually one of 'you are limiting God' or they redefine the gifts from scripture to fit their expression of them.

When I was a charismatic as a youth.. later in my early 20s.. I got into New Age beliefs.  I got to see the similarities of the emotional, trance like experiences that I encountered between them both.

Now looking back, when I see charismatics into this stuff.. I can tell straight away it's not biblical.  But the folks into it themselves I don't think have had this point of comparison with other kind of beliefs. 

[BrotherTony]

My relatives in the charismatic churches hate when I present the flaws in today's practice of speaking in tongues.

[Invicta]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:11 PM, Joe Chandler said:

Careful now. Someone might quote this. I am not charismatic and do believe the sign gifts have expired and I agree with the rest of your post. Please don't take this the wrong way.

Mark 16:15-18   And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.  17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;  18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I have thought often about that very verse. I think Paul was using hyperbole to make a point. All the other times Paul speaks on the subject of languages he outlines the proper way to do it. The charismatics don't follow any of that.  

I have always understood that to mean "If I were to" .

[Invicta]

The only group I know who would come under that heading is New Frontiers started by Terry Virgo. I challenged him about some of their teachings and he gave me a book by Terry Virgo. It has very short chapters and I think I read the first eight.  It told how he hid the fact that he was charismatic when he became a pastor.  And he held special Friday meetings with one couple and when he had indoctrinated them added another couple etc. Eventually the two deacons gave up trying to fight and resigned which left Virgo to do as he pleased.  I passed the book on to an elder of a church which I thought would be under charismatic infiltration and told him to watch out for his church.  

[Salyan]

I'm amazed someone would document that. That's like the definition of 'creeping in unawares'.

(Hi, Invicta! Feels like it's been a while since I've seen you.)

[Invicta]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:13 PM, Salyan said:

I'm amazed someone would document that. That's like the definition of 'creeping in unawares'.

(Hi, Invicta! Feels like it's been a while since I've seen you.)

Hi Salyan,

I didn't get on the internet much for a long time. I did miss a bit out  on that post. I thought I had said that "I met someone who belonged to a New Frontiers church.  I challenged him etc"

How are you. I don't get out much these days as my legs are not good but sometimes I go shopping on my mobility scooter which the family call my batmobile.  Sorry we didn't get to meet you when you came to the UK. I would ha e liked to show you the Martyrs memorial in Canterbury. I suggest that when visitors want to see the Cathedral. I am now living in Ashford and we also have a memorial here. Come to think I have never visited it although some people have a service there every year. The maIn Asford martyr was John Brown a Lollard.