What preachers do you listen to? Are they heretical?

[Jerry]

So Wretched, God can guide you and other men today - but He couldn’t do that in the past? That is exactly what we find in sound books and Bible commentaries.

“Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others. My chat this afternoon is not for these great originals, but for you who are content to learn of holy men, taught of God, and mighty in the Scriptures. It has been the fashion of late years to speak against the use of commentaries. If there were any fear that the expositions of Matthew Henry, Gill, Scott, and others, would be exalted into Christian Targums, we would join the chorus of objectors, but the existence or approach of such a danger we do not suspect. The temptations of our times lie rather in empty pretensions to novelty of sentiment, than in a slavish following of accepted guides. A respectable acquaintance with the opinions of the giants of the past, might have saved many an erratic thinker from wild interpretations and outrageous inferences. Usually, we have found the despisers of commentaries to be men who have no sort of acquaintance with them; in their case, it is the opposite of familiarity which has bred contempt” (Spurgeon, Two Lectures Addressed to the Students of the Pastor’s College, Metropolitan Tabernacle).

[wretched]

2 hours ago, Jerry said:

So Wretched, God can guide you and other men today - but He couldn’t do that in the past? That is exactly what we find in sound books and Bible commentaries.

“Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others. My chat this afternoon is not for these great originals, but for you who are content to learn of holy men, taught of God, and mighty in the Scriptures. It has been the fashion of late years to speak against the use of commentaries. If there were any fear that the expositions of Matthew Henry, Gill, Scott, and others, would be exalted into Christian Targums, we would join the chorus of objectors, but the existence or approach of such a danger we do not suspect. The temptations of our times lie rather in empty pretensions to novelty of sentiment, than in a slavish following of accepted guides. A respectable acquaintance with the opinions of the giants of the past, might have saved many an erratic thinker from wild interpretations and outrageous inferences. Usually, we have found the despisers of commentaries to be men who have no sort of acquaintance with them; in their case, it is the opposite of familiarity which has bred contempt” (Spurgeon, Two Lectures Addressed to the Students of the Pastor’s College, Metropolitan Tabernacle).

Hey friend,

Sadly however, these great "giants of God" men esteem and follow were riddled with error (every single one of them without exception) and it has gotten far worse the closer His Day approaches. 

Our Lord wants us to search the Scriptures ourselves and never take men's word for God's. "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so".

Our Lord wants His followers to try the spirits against His Word. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

You should ask yourself friend, why you would argue against listening to God's Word in favor of men's opinions? That kind of indoctrination came from Rome and not the New Testament. Think about it...

Edited August 20, 2021 by wretched

[Jerry]

I didn’t name any specific preachers or commentators - other than actually quoting Spurgeon - so you are in no position whatsoever to state they were filled with errors.

By the way, if all are filled with errors, that includes you too! Therefore making what you are saying of no value whatsoever.

[Jerry]

By the way, God says He would always have a remnant, and that He would give teachers to the church to build them up in the faith. That tells me there are sound teachers and preachers out there that a child of God can glean from.

Nowhere did I speak against studying the Word of God itself - but you seem to think that if you put Youtube on repeat and then just listen to the NT over and over without actually reading it and studying it then you will magically learn something. Doesn’t work that way. Understanding the Word of God comes from abiding in it and taking the effort to study it.

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[wretched]

17 minutes ago, Jerry said:

By the way, God says He would always have a remnant, and that He would give teachers to the church to build them up in the faith. That tells me there are sound teachers and preachers out there that a child of God can glean from.

Nowhere did I speak against studying the Word of God itself - but you seem to think that if you put Youtube on repeat and then just listen to the NT over and over without actually reading it and studying it then you will magically learn something. Doesn’t work that way. Understanding the Word of God comes from abiding in it and taking the effort to study it.

John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Ok friend

[SureWord]

I think it's a mistake to avoid like the plague every preacher or teacher who may be "off" on some doctrine. I understand getting sound material into the hands of a babe in Christ but if you've been a believer for a while I think you should be able to handle reading or listening to a "heretic" which today could be as simple as having a Christmas tree in your home. It's gotten kind of ridiculous, really.

[BrotherTony]

26 minutes ago, SureWord said:

I think it's a mistake to avoid like the plague every preacher or teacher who may be "off" on some doctrine. I understand getting sound material into the hands of a babe in Christ but if you've been a believer for a while I think you should be able to handle reading or listening to a "heretic" which today could be as simple as having a Christmas tree in your home. It's gotten kind of ridiculous, really.

I know that some here won't listen to certain preachers because they're not of the Baptist faith, or the person IS NOT their pastor. That's all fine and good for them. But, I listen to a variety of preachers. In college we were taught to "take the meat and leave the bone," and to be able to discern for ourselves whether or not the things being taught were Scriptural, and which parts to keep and which parts to throw away. I'm not so terrified by a person's partial doctrinal error, as I have the Holy Spirit to show me and lead me in the right way. I listen to Dr. Tony Evans, Dr. Robert Morris, and I used to listen to Dr. Billy Graham when he was alive. I had many friends and family members come to Christ through his ministry. Did they all become Baptists? No, they didn't...but it didn't make them any less saved. Billy's cousin Dr. Virgil Graham used to be my pastor in Tremont, Illinois. Virgil's son has a church and a Bible college in Arkansas, and I went to school with him at Fellowship Baptist College in E. Peoria, IL back in the 1980s. We learned to be well rounded individuals. 

[Jerry]

It isn’t an issue of whether someone is a Baptist or not - it’s an issue whether someone whom you are getting spiritual teaching from is even saved or not, denies the fundamentals of the faith or who Jesus is, etc. If they reject the inspiration of the Scriptures, reject Jesus’ blood atonement, reject the eternality of Heaven and Hell, reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone, etc. - then guess what? They are not even true believers, and you are 100% deceiving yourself if you think you can eat a regular diet of poison and not have it affect you spiritually.

Here are some basic things about Dallas Willard, just from a quick search on Way of Life - yes, I know some people don’t like David Cloud because he steps on your toes and exposes their idols, but it should be fairly easy to prove whether Willard does or does not believe these things. I think What Is The Emerging Church may be one of Cloud’s free ebooks - so you can download it and search it yourself. Depending on the nature of the article, there might be page numbers referenced that you could look the quotes up in Willard’s books.

Further, as we have documented in What Is the Emerging Church? Willard believes that “it is possible for someone who does not know Jesus to be saved” (“Apologetics in Action, “Cutting Edge magazine, Winter 2001). He rejects the infallible inspiration of Scripture, saying, “Jesus and his words have never belonged to the categories of dogma or law, and to read them as if they did is simply to miss the point” (The Divine Conspiracy, p. xiii). Willard is confused about salvation, asking the strange question, “Why is it that we look upon salvation as a moment that began our religious life instead of the daily life we receive from God” (The Spirit of the Disciplines). He rejects the traditional gospel of Christ’s blood atonement (The Divine Conspiracy, pp. 44, 49). In The Spirit of the Disciplines, which promotes Roman Catholic-style contemplative mysticism, Willard includes the endorsement of Sue Monk Kidd, a New Age “goddess.” (See “From Southern Baptist to Goddess Worship” at the Way of Life web site.) Willard promotes the Catholic-Buddhist-Universalist Thomas Merton and an assortment of heresy-laden mystic “saints.” Willard claims that God is not concerned about doctrinal purity. In fact, he says that God loves theologians of all types.

[BrotherTony]

11 minutes ago, Jerry said:

It isn’t an issue of whether someone is a Baptist or not - it’s an issue whether someone whom you are getting spiritual teaching from is even saved or not, denies the fundamentals of the faith or who Jesus is, etc. If they reject the inspiration of the Scriptures, reject Jesus’ blood atonement, reject the eternality of Heaven and Hell, reject salvation by grace alone through faith alone, etc. - then guess what? They are not even true believers, and you are 100% deceiving yourself if you think you can eat a regular diet of poison and not have it affect you spiritually.

Here are some basic things about Dallas Willard, just from a quick search on Way of Life - yes, I know some people don’t like David Cloud because he steps on your toes and exposes their idols, but it should be fairly easy to prove whether Willard does or does not believe these things. I think What Is The Emerging Church may be one of Cloud’s free ebooks - so you can download it and search it yourself. Depending on the nature of the article, there might be page numbers referenced that you could look the quotes up in Willard’s books.

Further, as we have documented in What Is the Emerging Church? Willard believes that “it is possible for someone who does not know Jesus to be saved” (“Apologetics in Action, “Cutting Edge magazine, Winter 2001). He rejects the infallible inspiration of Scripture, saying, “Jesus and his words have never belonged to the categories of dogma or law, and to read them as if they did is simply to miss the point” (The Divine Conspiracy, p. xiii). Willard is confused about salvation, asking the strange question, “Why is it that we look upon salvation as a moment that began our religious life instead of the daily life we receive from God” (The Spirit of the Disciplines). He rejects the traditional gospel of Christ’s blood atonement (The Divine Conspiracy, pp. 44, 49). In The Spirit of the Disciplines, which promotes Roman Catholic-style contemplative mysticism, Willard includes the endorsement of Sue Monk Kidd, a New Age “goddess.” (See “From Southern Baptist to Goddess Worship” at the Way of Life web site.) Willard promotes the Catholic-Buddhist-Universalist Thomas Merton and an assortment of heresy-laden mystic “saints.” Willard claims that God is not concerned about doctrinal purity. In fact, he says that God loves theologians of all types.

Did I specifically name you, Brother? I don't recall exactly whom it was that said that people shouldn't get their doctrine from anyone but their pastor....I believe that was @Jim_Alaska, but I cannot totally agree to that. Many people who sat under Dr. Jack Hyles got doctrine from him, but they were sorely misled as he didn't practice what he preached, and he was a self-absorbed braggart! He covered his sin and the sin of his son and many of his people for years. This was unacceptable. I was NEVER going to mention that here...but this seems like the time to break that train of thought. Not all pastors are reliable, whether they're Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, CoC, CoG, Nazarene, etc. In fact, I don't believe I know of many pastors who are 100% correct on Bible doctrine, as we all tend to put our own spin/belief in with what the Bible says...And there's nothing wrong with that as long as we acknowledge that this is "our opinion" on the doctrine and not necessarily the proven explanation. I believe that most of the preachers I listen to are indeed saved, stick to the fundamentals of the faith, preach Christ and salvation through him alone, etc. As you stated, I'm NOT a fan of Mr. Cloud, and I never will be. It's not just a personality thing with me...it is his continued reluctance to admit when he's been caught with incorrect information and his inability to admit his fault. He does have some good stuff...I will acknowledge that, but I don't regularly use him as a resource.

[Jim_Alaska]

Yes, I was the one that said that Brother Tony. But that was assuming that those being taught were in a sound NT church and under a true God called pastor. It would be gross error to say someone should only get their spiritual food from a false church or heretical pastor.

I have seen too much of church members being led away from  the truth by listening to TV preachers and also by "church hopping". God gives each one of us a particular, local church to belong to; there we are taught and edified and also contribute to and encourage the other members of that local body.

[robycop3]

 My own pastor always exhorts us to believe the Bible as our highest earthly authority, the supreme arbiter of all questions of faith/worship, and not to believe nor follow any doctrine of faith/worship that's not found in Scripture, either directly, or by clear implication. (An example of this is the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.)

  I've listened to many radio sermons by many preachers, both past & present, comparing their messages with Scripture, & calling attention to non-Scriptural doctrines & assertions.  While none are perfect, neither are we, but some are worse than others, such as Benny Hinn or T. D. Jakes, who started about 35 miles from my home.

  I've found the best ones are the local boys, even when I've traveled & listened to locals on the car radio. Most megachurch preachers have become "too big for their britches", & seek to boost their popularity & fatten their offering plates with "love gifts", while preaching scratchings for itching ears.

  I encourage new believers to RELY ON THE BIBLE, ABOVE ALL, for Spiritual guidance, while praying for the Holy Spirit to instruct in the understanding of the meanings of Scriptures.

[SureWord]

6 hours ago, robycop3 said:

 My own pastor always exhorts us to believe the Bible as our highest earthly authority, the supreme arbiter of all questions of faith/worship, and not to believe nor follow any doctrine of faith/worship that's not found in Scripture, either directly, or by clear implication. (An example of this is the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.)

  I've listened to many radio sermons by many preachers, both past & present, comparing their messages with Scripture, & calling attention to non-Scriptural doctrines & assertions.  While none are perfect, neither are we, but some are worse than others, such as Benny Hinn or T. D. Jakes, who started about 35 miles from my home.

  I've found the best ones are the local boys, even when I've traveled & listened to locals on the car radio. Most megachurch preachers have become "too big for their britches", & seek to boost their popularity & fatten their offering plates with "love gifts", while preaching scratchings for itching ears.

  I encourage new believers to RELY ON THE BIBLE, ABOVE ALL, for Spiritual guidance, while praying for the Holy Spirit to instruct in the understanding of the meanings of Scriptures.

You say this, Roby, which sounds great, but then you believe that even the original autographs have errors and you really trash the KJV something terribly in other forums online.

[robycop3]

  Where have I ever said the original autographs had errors?  As I was told by the moderators not to discuss KJVO here, I won't, but I'll be glad to discuss it in CARM or the Baptist Board. And I AM a 100% Bible believer.

Edited August 21, 2021 by robycop3

[SureWord]

2 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  Where have I ever said the original autographs had errors?  As I was told by the moderators not to discuss KJVO here, I won't, but I'll be glad to discuss it in CARM or the Baptist Board. And I AM a 100% Bible believer.

You told me, steelmaker.

[robycop3]

15 hours ago, SureWord said:

You told me, steelmaker.

  I don't remember saying such, as Steelmaker on the BVDB site, but I'll take your word for it. And, I'll admit it was wrong. As for the last part of your post-before-last, I readily admit to doing such, and still do it, & will continue to do it, long as God allows me to post on the net.