Separation over doctrine.

[DaChaser]

15 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

And that changes nothing at all of what I said. Christ has done His part: Died to pay for the sin of the world; Lightens every man that comes into the world; draws all men to Him from the cross. What more does anyone need from Him? The Lord also gave us His word.  Then, we who hear and respond and are saved speak the gospel to those we are able to speak it to, and faith comes HOW? Faith cometh by HEARING, and hearing by the WORD OF GOD.  

So, all men have the light of Christ, the drawing of Christ, the word of God, and the gospel. Just because most will choose to reject it, doesn't mean God is in any way responsible to do anything more, as He has already done more than we deserve. Jesus already said that the gate is narrow and the way is straight, and few there would be that find it-that's because most will reject and choose the broad way that leads to destruction. 

So I am not seeing your issue here. Our fallen nature doesn't preclude our ability to choose to receive the gift of salvation.

Are you saying that we can still choose Jesus as Lord apart from the working of the Holy Spirit?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Ok, thus far I have refrained from engaging deeply with the "Calvinism-debate" that has progressed within the latest portion of this thread discussion; and I shall continue to refrain.  Yet I do NOT refrain because I have no interest in the "debate" or because I have no thoughts to present.  Rather, I shall refrain because the purpose of THIS thread discussion, as per its origin, is supposed to be about the question of "separation over doctrine."  Personally, I believe that this thread discussion should remain focused on the original topic; and I believe that the "Calvinism-debate" should move to a thread that is dedicated to that subject specifically.  (My opinion, for what little it may be worth.)

[John Young]

1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

Are you saying that we can still choose Jesus as Lord apart from the working of the Holy Spirit?

According to scripture, God's word is sufficient to perform the work in which it is sent. I doubt it is sent apart from the Holy Spirit. If one hears the words of the gospel and of salvation, it is clear the ability of God is sent with it.

Isaiah 55:11 KJV So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

[Ukulelemike]

1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

Are you saying that we can still choose Jesus as Lord apart from the working of the Holy Spirit?

According to scripture, what is the job of the Holy Spirit? He indwells and seals the believer, and brings to the mind of the believer all things of which the Lord has said. He speaks through the believer the things of God, teaches us what to say, empowers the believer to do the work of Christ, gives the words of God to holy men. But nowhere, that I have seen in scripture, is the Holy Ghost given to draw men to Christ-that work is done through the word of God, the drawing of Jesus Christ from the cross, and the preaching of the gospel. 

Again, which I have written numerous times, it is JESUS, who is the Light, and who lights all men that come into the world, (John 1:9); it is Jesus who said he would draw all men unto Him when He was lifted up, (on the cross), (John 12:32, 33). It is the hearing of the word of God that brings faith, (Rom 10:7), and the knowledge of salvation by the gospel, (Rom 1:16). 

The Spirit has a job, but it is not to draw the lost. The Spirit's duty is to the saved. Jesus gives light, the word gives faith, Jesus draws all men, the gospel imparts the knowledge of God's grace unto salvation, but the Spirit is given to the saved. 

[DaChaser]

4 hours ago, John Young said:

According to scripture, God's word is sufficient to perform the work in which it is sent. I doubt it is sent apart from the Holy Spirit. If one hears the words of the gospel and of salvation, it is clear the ability of God is sent with it.

Isaiah 55:11 KJV So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

God uses the Gospel as the means by which to have His own receive the Lord Jesus and be now saved!

4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

According to scripture, what is the job of the Holy Spirit? He indwells and seals the believer, and brings to the mind of the believer all things of which the Lord has said. He speaks through the believer the things of God, teaches us what to say, empowers the believer to do the work of Christ, gives the words of God to holy men. But nowhere, that I have seen in scripture, is the Holy Ghost given to draw men to Christ-that work is done through the word of God, the drawing of Jesus Christ from the cross, and the preaching of the gospel. 

Again, which I have written numerous times, it is JESUS, who is the Light, and who lights all men that come into the world, (John 1:9); it is Jesus who said he would draw all men unto Him when He was lifted up, (on the cross), (John 12:32, 33). It is the hearing of the word of God that brings faith, (Rom 10:7), and the knowledge of salvation by the gospel, (Rom 1:16). 

The Spirit has a job, but it is not to draw the lost. The Spirit's duty is to the saved. Jesus gives light, the word gives faith, Jesus draws all men, the gospel imparts the knowledge of God's grace unto salvation, but the Spirit is given to the saved. 

The Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to reach and to save those whoa re the chosen in Christ jesus to receive salvation!

Edited June 9, 2020 by DaChaser

[Ukulelemike]

1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

The Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to reach and to save those who are the chosen in Christ Jesus to receive salvation!

Scripture, please. I see the Spirit gives men the power to preach the gospel, but I am not seeing what you claim.

[1Timothy115]

Not defined yet? Here are some guides for doctrine...
"DOCTRINE, n. [L., to teach.]
1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master. The doctrines of the gospel are the principles or truths taught by Christ and his apostles. The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion.
2. The act of teaching.
He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in his doctrine. Mark 4.
3. Learning; knowledge.
Whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Isaiah 28.
4. The truths of the gospel in general.
That they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. Titus 2.
5. Instruction and confirmation in the truths of the gospel. 2 Timothy 3."
                                    Webster’s 1828

"dok'-trin: Latin doctrina, from doceo, "to teach," denotes both the act of teaching and that which is taught; now used exclusively in the latter sense."
                    International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE)

"For the purposes of discussions, Christians, base teaching on the Bible. Christians do not seek to teach what they as individuals believe; contrariwise, Christians seek to present what has already been revealed by God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit through the preserved word of God. For Christians who are English speaking, the preserved word of God is our King James Bible; for other than English, it would be Bibles based on the same texts as used for our KJB. Most of us, if not all of us, quote from the 1769 KJB (accepted AV) and some from the 1611 KJB (original AV).

Doctrine (teaching)
The first truth must be that we have the preserved word of God. How can we teach others what God has said if we do not believe we have God’s word to teach with?

The second truth must be that any teaching (doctrine) must be verifiable within our Bible. Inserting the personal pronoun ‘I’ with verbs like “believe, see, know, etc.;” must be fully supported by scripture (text lines from our Bible).

Example of using ‘I’:
I don’t believe there is another way to God besides from his grace through faith in Jesus Christ. (Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 1:17, Rom. 3:25, Acts 4:12) 

The third truth must be that a doctrine supported by scripture will agree with other scripture and be contextual (relating). The example above shows support from more than one scripture (agreement). The verses before and after are also related (contextual) to one another in those referenced above.

The fourth truth must be proper application of scripture to support a doctrine. The Holy Spirit’s leading is required to insure Christians use the correct scripture to validate a statement of doctrine. 

Is the above discussion of doctrine supported by scripture and therefore a doctrine for doctrines? No, these are my thoughts on how a doctrine may be arrived at, and how to determine if a doctrine is sound. This is not the word of God; it is definitions and discussion about one possible approach to the word of God.

Warnings
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Exhortations
Philippians 1:9-10
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"
                                                                                                                                                          Author Unknown (except Bible references) maybe ISBE

...OK that's doctrines. Now what are the doctrines I would consider separation over? Salvation, deity of any of the Godhead (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit),  the Word of God, the Gospel, and eternal security. I'll consider others, what do you have?. 

Edited June 9, 2020 by 1Timothy115

[DaChaser]

18 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Scripture, please. I see the Spirit gives men the power to preach the gospel, but I am not seeing what you claim.

Romans 1:16 as all whop have been appointed by God to receive the good news shall receive it and be saved!

18 hours ago, 1Timothy115 said:

Not defined yet? Here are some guides for doctrine...
"DOCTRINE, n. [L., to teach.]
1. In a general sense, whatever is taught. Hence, a principle or position in any science; whatever is laid down as true by an instructor or master. The doctrines of the gospel are the principles or truths taught by Christ and his apostles. The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion.
2. The act of teaching.
He taught them many things by parables, and said to them in his doctrine. Mark 4.
3. Learning; knowledge.
Whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Isaiah 28.
4. The truths of the gospel in general.
That they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. Titus 2.
5. Instruction and confirmation in the truths of the gospel. 2 Timothy 3."
                                    Webster’s 1828

"dok'-trin: Latin doctrina, from doceo, "to teach," denotes both the act of teaching and that which is taught; now used exclusively in the latter sense."
                    International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE)

"For the purposes of discussions, Christians, base teaching on the Bible. Christians do not seek to teach what they as individuals believe; contrariwise, Christians seek to present what has already been revealed by God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit through the preserved word of God. For Christians who are English speaking, the preserved word of God is our King James Bible; for other than English, it would be Bibles based on the same texts as used for our KJB. Most of us, if not all of us, quote from the 1769 KJB (accepted AV) and some from the 1611 KJB (original AV).

Doctrine (teaching)
The first truth must be that we have the preserved word of God. How can we teach others what God has said if we do not believe we have God’s word to teach with?

The second truth must be that any teaching (doctrine) must be verifiable within our Bible. Inserting the personal pronoun ‘I’ with verbs like “believe, see, know, etc.;” must be fully supported by scripture (text lines from our Bible).

Example of using ‘I’:
I don’t believe there is another way to God besides from his grace through faith in Jesus Christ. (Eph. 2:8-9, Rom. 1:17, Rom. 3:25, Acts 4:12) 

The third truth must be that a doctrine supported by scripture will agree with other scripture and be contextual (relating). The example above shows support from more than one scripture (agreement). The verses before and after are also related (contextual) to one another in those referenced above.

The fourth truth must be proper application of scripture to support a doctrine. The Holy Spirit’s leading is required to insure Christians use the correct scripture to validate a statement of doctrine. 

Is the above discussion of doctrine supported by scripture and therefore a doctrine for doctrines? No, these are my thoughts on how a doctrine may be arrived at, and how to determine if a doctrine is sound. This is not the word of God; it is definitions and discussion about one possible approach to the word of God.

Warnings
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Exhortations
Philippians 1:9-10
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Peter 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:"
                                                                                                                                                          Author Unknown (except Bible references) maybe ISBE

...OK that's doctrines. Now what are the doctrines I would consider separation over? Salvation, deity of any of the Godhead (Father, Son, or Holy Spirit),  the Word of God, the Gospel, and eternal security. I'll consider others, what do you have?. 

Ehich Gospel though? The one as taught by Spurgeon, or by a Finney?

[Jim_Alaska]

2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Romans 1:16 as all whop have been appointed by God to receive the good news shall receive it and be saved!

Romans 1:16 actually says: Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

And as for which gospel, it is the gospel of Christ, not any man as evidenced by that very scripture.

If you give a scripture reference, at least quote it correctly for what it says, not what you want it to say.

[Ukulelemike]

4 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Romans 1:16 actually says: Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

And as for which gospel, it is the gospel of Christ, not any man as evidenced by that very scripture.

If you give a scripture reference, at least quote it correctly for what it says, not what you want it to say.

You beat me to the punch!

6 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Romans 1:16 as all whop have been appointed by God to receive the good news shall receive it and be saved!

Well, as Jim mentioned, the verse you quoted doesn't say what you said it said, or even mean the same thing. As well, no mention of the Spirit. Yes, the Spirit and the Father and Christ are one God, but three different administrations, three different persons and three different jobs. Hence why Jesus had to leave before the Spirit could come to them. All you did here was misquote a verse to give it a Calvinist spin. 

[Scott Lyons]

6 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

You beat me to the punch!

Well, as Jim mentioned, the verse you quoted doesn't say what you said it said, or even mean the same thing. As well, no mention of the Spirit. Yes, the Spirit and the Father and Christ are one God, but three different administrations, three different persons and three different jobs. Hence why Jesus had to leave before the Spirit could come to them. All you did here was misquote a verse to give it a Calvinist spin. 

That is what Calvinists do. They cherrypick scripture and take it out of context. They have to to support their man made philosophy and paradigm.

[1Timothy115]

On 6/10/2020 at 11:48 AM, DaChaser said:

Romans 1:16 as all whop have been appointed by God to receive the good news shall receive it and be saved!

Ehich Gospel though? The one as taught by Spurgeon, or by a Finney?

Yes, as per the KJV as Jim, Mike, and gracelife have attested... the one taught by Jesus Christ... 1 Cor. 15:3-4 and there are witnesses 1 Cor. 15:5-8! Paul tells us he is about to declare it... 1 Cor. 15:1 and that it is the same truth which they received for their salvation.

Edited June 15, 2020 by 1Timothy115
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