Saved in 3 tenses?

[Roselove]

22 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I myself believe that Mark 8:34-38 (as well as the similar passages in the other gospels) is a discipleship/fellowship passage, and that the ides of losing one's own soul is a Biblical reference unto the "soulish" death that I mentioned above.

Sister, to this point in our conversation, I do not believe that you have any reason to make apology to me.  I am not at all bothered by a multitude of questions, as long as I am able to find the time necessary to answer them.  Patience with my time restrictions is all that I request, and thus far you have granted that.  Furthermore, I do not believe that anywhere throughout this thread discussion with me thus far you have come across as wanting to debate or as being difficult.  I have only perceived you as being uncertain in your own mind on some things, and therefore as having many internal questions that need relief.  Answering such needs is (I believe) one of the reasons that the Lord our God has made me the way that He has and has placed me upon this earth.

Thank you! That’s what I was kind of thinking, but wasn’t sure! 

Thank you very much, I’m very happy to hear that I’m not coming across that way! I appreciate all of your help, very much!

[Roselove]

I had a question about 1 Timothy 4,  verse 1 says people will depart from the faith and verse 2 says their conscience will be seared (I was thinking how can they have conscience about this kind of thing if they’re not saved)? 

Also verse 16, is this about the soul salvation again, or do you think it’s about our eternal salvation? I thought from the context that it seemed like the eternal one. I would appreciate your thoughts!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, Roselove said:

Also verse 16, is this about the soul salvation again, or do you think it’s about our eternal salvation? I thought from the context that it seemed like the eternal one. I would appreciate your thoughts!

Sister Rose,

I believe that the "salvation" of 1 Timothy 4:16 refers to the daily deliverance (saving) of the soul from doctrinal compromise and sinful corruption.
 

2 hours ago, Roselove said:

I had a question about 1 Timothy 4,  verse 1 says people will depart from the faith and verse 2 says their conscience will be seared (I was thinking how can they have conscience about this kind of thing if they’re not saved)? 

1 Timothy 4:1-3 is one among a number of passages in 1 Timothy wherein the apostle warned Timothy concerning the matter of false doctrine and those who were following thereafter:

1 Timothy 1:3-7 -- "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."

1 Timothy 1:18-20 -- "This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

1 Timothy 4:1-3 -- "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

1 Timothy 4:7 -- "But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness."

1 Timothy 6:3-5 -- "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

1 Timothy 6:20-21 -- "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

As I consider all of these passages together, I come to the conclusion that the apostle was speaking primarily about genuine believers who had gone astray into false doctrine.

[Roselove]

On 5/2/2018 at 12:49 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I believe that the "salvation" of 1 Timothy 4:16 refers to the daily deliverance (saving) of the soul from doctrinal compromise and sinful corruption.
 

1 Timothy 4:1-3 is one among a number of passages in 1 Timothy wherein the apostle warned Timothy concerning the matter of false doctrine and those who were following thereafter:

1 Timothy 1:3-7 -- "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."

1 Timothy 1:18-20 -- "This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

1 Timothy 4:1-3 -- "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

1 Timothy 4:7 -- "But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness."

1 Timothy 6:3-5 -- "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

1 Timothy 6:20-21 -- "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

As I consider all of these passages together, I come to the conclusion that the apostle was speaking primarily about genuine believers who had gone astray into false doctrine.

Thank you, I am a bit confused though because I think it was in one of the letters from John, he said they left us because they weren’t of us, I know that was also about false teachers, but I tended to think that it also meant that Christians wouldn’t depart, either. So, I guess my question is, how could they depart if they were truly saved? And if their conscience is seared, how could they ever come back?  

I just read through the part about conscience being seared again, I think maybe that was in reference to the false teachers, perhaps. Maybe because if they hear and reject the truth to the point of leading many astray, that it might be very unlikely that they would ever repent and believe the truth? Am I getting this right, you think? 

Still, I’m still a bit confused about Christians departing from the faith, since the Bible seems to say in other places that we won’t do that.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Roselove

[Roselove]

On 5/2/2018 at 12:49 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I believe that the "salvation" of 1 Timothy 4:16 refers to the daily deliverance (saving) of the soul from doctrinal compromise and sinful corruption.
 

1 Timothy 4:1-3 is one among a number of passages in 1 Timothy wherein the apostle warned Timothy concerning the matter of false doctrine and those who were following thereafter:

1 Timothy 1:3-7 -- "As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: from which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm."

1 Timothy 1:18-20 -- "This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

1 Timothy 4:1-3 -- "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth."

1 Timothy 4:7 -- "But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness."

1 Timothy 6:3-5 -- "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; he is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

1 Timothy 6:20-21 -- "O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen."

As I consider all of these passages together, I come to the conclusion that the apostle was speaking primarily about genuine believers who had gone astray into false doctrine.

Sorry, one more thing- how does Matthew 10:28 relate to the discussion of the soul we’ve been talking about? It seems like it means more than whether we are doing well on earth/being kept alive, because Jesus says to not worry about the people hurting their bodies, but fear God because He can throw our bodies and souls in hell. Also, the part in this chapter talking about enduring until the end and this being repeated in Matthew 24, I’m a bit confused, because I feel the wording seems to be talking about Christians. These things are making me a little anxious, I was working with my husband about these and he couldn’t figure it out, either. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Roselove

[heartstrings]

Then there are different meanings of "saved" such as "saved in childbearing".

[Pastor Scott Markle]

52 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Then there are different meanings of "saved" such as "saved in childbearing".

Brother Wayne,

I agree with your intended point.  However, to be more precise - The meaning of the word "saved" is not really different, since it ever means "to be delivered from something;" but the intended application can be quite different from context to context.  Certainly worthy of consideration in any given Biblical context.

[heartstrings]

Yes, of course, that's pretty much what I meant.

So, when we read the word "saved" in the Bible, it does always mean "delivered from something" but we are not to just assume that deliverance is always "salvation from eternal damnation".

[Pastor Scott Markle]

3 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Yes, of course, that's pretty much what I meant.

So, when we read the word "saved" in the Bible, it does always mean "delivered from something" but we are not to just assume that deliverance is always "salvation from eternal damnation".

Absolutely, AMEN!!!! Big mistakes in contextual understanding and Biblical doctrine are made when we just make that assumption.

[Roselove]

On 5/16/2018 at 9:32 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Absolutely, AMEN!!!! Big mistakes in contextual understanding and Biblical doctrine are made when we just make that assumption.

Sometimes it can be difficult to determine what the context of the word is. Especially since, when we talk about being saved in the Christian community, we mean from hell, and being brought into God’s family. I feel like I’ve been learning a lot, though. 

I was having a thought last night as well, about how being born of God, of incorruptible seed and becoming His children, how could we ever be lost? I know many who say we can lose salvation, say that we can grieve the Holy Spirit until He leaves or until we get too hardened to listen, but I can’t think of a verse in the NT that says He will ever not be apart of us for any reason, and I don’t believe He says that He will leave us, either. Also, even if we don’t listen to God (even though we should and it’s very wrong if we choose not to), I don’t see how that means we won’t be His children, anymore. We are still born of God and Christ is in us and He can’t deny Himself, the Bible says that. Just thought I’d share that, it was a moment of something simple, clicking in my head. I may still struggle, but it got me thinking some more.

[Roselove]

When you get a chance, I still would like help with my last questions, though. I still don’t quite understand them yet.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

26 minutes ago, Roselove said:

When you get a chance, I still would like help with my last questions, though. I still don’t quite understand them yet.

Indeed, Sister Rose, I have intended to respond; but I am being pulled in too many different directions at once at the moment.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 5/2/2018 at 3:01 PM, Roselove said:

Thank you, I am a bit confused though because I think it was in one of the letters from John, he said they left us because they weren’t of us, I know that was also about false teachers, but I tended to think that it also meant that Christians wouldn’t depart, either. So, I guess my question is, how could they depart if they were truly saved? And if their conscience is seared, how could they ever come back?  

Indeed, 1 John 2:18-23 declares, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."  First, there is no indication herein that these individuals departed from the FAITH.  Rather, there is only an indication that they departed from the CONGREGATION of believers.  Second, this passage reveals that they departed from the congregation of believers specifically because they had never been a true part of that congregation through faith.  These "departers" were antichrists, who denied that "Jesus is the Christ."  As such, they were NEVER believers in Christ, and thereby NEVER had a saving relationship with the Son or the Father.  In fact, they were NEVER in the faith itself at all.  Being in the congregation of believers has to do with one's relationship to the believers, and believers CAN be fooled for a time.  However, being in the faith has to do with one's relation to God the Son and God the Father, and they can NEVER be fooled.  These antichrists were indeed in the congregation of believers, but they were NEVER in the faith.  They did indeed depart from the congregation of believers; but they NEVER departed from the faith because they were NEVER in the faith to begin with.

Ok, I had a few moments for a quick post.  I intend to deal with the question concerning believers departing from the faith and the question concerning a seared conscience in a future posting.

[Roselove]

I was reading in the daily chapter on my Bible app today, I got a little confused on something. Romans 11:20-22, I was reading it in the context and looked at some commentaries as well, I do agree that it’s talking about Jews and gentiles as a whole, but in verse 20 it says that some are standing by faith (which I assume means they’re saved), but in verse 22 he says that they’re able to be cut off. In light of the fact that this is in parallel with Israel’s unbelief (which I assume means that the ones not believing are not saved), I’m kind of confused about how we can be standing in faith, but be cut off like the other unbelievers? 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 6/16/2018 at 7:26 AM, Roselove said:

I was reading in the daily chapter on my Bible app today, I got a little confused on something. Romans 11:20-22, I was reading it in the context and looked at some commentaries as well, I do agree that it’s talking about Jews and gentiles as a whole, but in verse 20 it says that some are standing by faith (which I assume means they’re saved), but in verse 22 he says that they’re able to be cut off. In light of the fact that this is in parallel with Israel’s unbelief (which I assume means that the ones not believing are not saved), I’m kind of confused about how we can be standing in faith, but be cut off like the other unbelievers? 

First, let us consider the context of the whole chapter wherein Romans 11:20-22 is found. 

1.  The Concern

The primary them of Romans 11 concerns the relationship of the Israelites as a people with the Lord their God.  This is revealed through the opening question of Romans 11:1, “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”  This question engages two progressive thoughts.  In the first place, we encounter the recognition that the Israelites were indeed the chosen people of God throughout the time of the Old Testament.  In the second place, we encounter the concern whether God has now cast aside the Israelites completely and permanently as His chose people.  Yet the emphatic answer to this concern rings back, “God forbid!”

2.  The Evidences

The apostle Paul provides two evidences for his emphatic answer that God has definitely not cast aside the Israelites completely and permanently as His chose people.  In the closing portion of Romans 11:1, he presents his own salvation as the first evidence.  Then in Romans 11:2-6 he presents the reality of a remnant, “a remnant according to the election of grace,” as the second evidence. 

3.  The Problem

In Romans 11:7-10 the apostle reveals that the Lord God has indeed judged the Israelites as a people with spiritual blindness.  This spiritual blindness does not prevent all of them from coming unto a knowledge of the truth, for there is indeed “a remnant according to the election of grace” who come unto faith in Christ for eternal salvation.  Yet this spiritual blindness means that the majority of the Israelites will not understand the way of God’s grace for eternal salvation through Christ; but “being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness [by the works of the law],” they will not “submit themselves unto the righteousness of God” through faith alone in Christ. (See Romans 10:2-4)

4.  The Result

In Romans 11:11 the apostle reveals that the spiritual fall of the Israelites has opened the door of God’s gracious salvation unto the Gentiles as a people group.  Yet this spiritual fall and spiritual blindness of the Israelites is not a final fall and permanent casting away.  Indeed, God’s Word declares, “God forbid!”  Rather, this spiritual fall of the Israelites and opened door of grace for the Gentiles is intended to provoke the Israelites unto spiritual jealousy and repentance.

5.  The Relationship

In Romans 11:12-15 the apostle proposes the truth that if the spiritual fall and diminishing of the Israelites be unto the spiritual reconciliation and riches of the world and of the Gentiles, then how much greater riches would the spiritual restoration and fullness of the Israelites be for the sake of the Gentile world.

6.  The Warning

Then in Romans 11:16-24 the apostle presents the parable of the good olive tree and the wild olive tree.  Even so, the primary intention for this parable is to warn us Gentiles that we should not boast ourselves against the spiritually fallen Israelites.  It is to warn us that we should not be wise in our own conceits and should not be sinfully high-minded against them.  Rather, it is to warn us that we should simply and continually walk in the fear of the Lord our God and Savior.

7.  The Promise

Having relayed his warning through illustration in Romans 11:16-24, the apostle proclaims in Romans 11:25-27 God’s promise of spiritual restoration for the Israelites.  As per the revelation of other Scriptural prophecy, we understand that this restoration shall occur at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

8.  The Conclusion

In Romans 11:28-32 draws the entire discussion to its conclusion – that the gospel of God’s merciful salvation is unto all, both Israelite and Gentile, through faith.

9.  The Praise

Finally, in Romans 11:33-36 the apostle expresses the heights of praise for the wisdom and glory of the Lord our God in creating such a plan of merciful salvation through grace unto all who believe.

 

Second, let us consider the meaning of the parable concerning the two olive trees.

1.  Before we begin to consider the details of the parable itself, it is important for us to recognize that we should not get our doctrinal understanding primarily from a parable.  Certainly, Biblical parables do illustrate doctrinal principles.  Yet parables remain illustrations for these principles, but not declarations of the principles themselves. 

2.  As we consider the details of this parable, it is important for us to recognize the primary point and principle of the parable.  Every Biblical parable, while including various details of truth, contains a primary principle of truth.  Even so, the primary principle of truth for the parable of the two olive trees in Romans 11:16-24 is a warning unto us Gentiles not to be high-minded or boastful against the spiritually fallen Israelites, but ever to walk in the fear of the Lord our God and Savior.

3.  Considering the details of this parable, we find that some of these details are more easily discernible than others.  The illustration of the parable presents us with a picture of two olive trees, a good (groomed) olive tree and a wild olive tree.  Other details in the illustration of the parable include the root of the good (groomed) olive tree, the branches of the good (groomed) olive tree, and the branches of the wild olive tree.  Specifically, the illustration of the parable speaks about some of the natural branches from the good olive tree being cut off, some of the branches from the wild olive tree being grafted into the good olive tree, and the possibility for some of the natural branches that were cut off being grafted back into the good olive tree.  So then, what do these details represent?  It seems clear that the natural branches of the good olive tree represent the Israelites as a people, and that the branches of the wild olive tree represent the Gentiles as a people.  Furthermore, It seems clear that those natural branches of the good olive tree which are cut off represent Israelites who do not receive God’s righteousness (justification and salvation) through faith in Christ, and that those wild branches which are grafted into the good olive tree represent Gentiles who do receive God’s righteousness through faith in Christ.  Finally, it seems clear that the natural branches of the good olive which were cut off, but might be grafted in again, represent Israelites who might yet receive God’s righteousness through faith in Christ. 

Yet there is one detail in the parable that is more difficult to discern.  What does the root (and trunk) of the good olive tree represent?  In the immediate context itself, we do not find a specific definition for this representation.  Yet understanding this representation is significant for your question, because it is out of this root (and trunk) that the natural branches grow, because it from this root (and trunk) that the natural branches are cut off, because it is into this root (and trunk) that the wild branches might be grafted, because it is from this root (and trunk) that the grafted branches might possibly be cut off, and because it is into this root (and trunk) that the natural branches which have been cut off might be grafted again.  However, the passage does provide us with some information concerning this root (and trunk) of the good olive tree.  It is holy in character. (See Romans 11:16)  It bears the branches; the branches do not bear it. (See Romans 11:18)  It provides “fatness” to the branches. (See Romans 11:17)  It is naturally the root of the Israelites as a people, naturally possessed by them as such. (See Romans 11:24)  It is not naturally the root of the Gentiles as a people, but only graciously possessed by them as such. (See Romans 11:22, 24)  Some might define this root as eternal salvation and/or eternal life.  Yet to me these things appear to be “fatness” blessings, rather than the foundational root itself.  In addition, although these blessings were certainly available to every Israelite throughout the time of the Old Testament, it does not appear to me that they were naturally the possession of all Israelites as a people.  Some might define this root as the Lord Jesus Christ.  Certainly, I would acknowledge that Christ is the foundational root (see John 15:1-6) for all believers.  Yet I still question whether Christ Himself was naturally the root possession of all Israelites as a people.  For my own case, I believe it best to view this root as representing something that was a root possession of all Israelites as a people throughout the time of the Old Testament.  Remaining within the context of the epistle to the Romans itself, and even within the context of Romans 9-11, I find an answer in Romans 9:4, wherein we learn that unto the Israelites “pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.  From this I learn that the covenants of promise (see also Ephesians 2:12) are a foundational root for the Israelites as the people of God and that those covenants of promise are naturally a root possession of all Israelites throughout the time of the Old Testament.  Certainly, in this time of New Testament, we Gentiles may take some part in these covenants of promise.  However, we take part therein, not by natural possession as do the Israelites, but by gracious possession.  In addition, because of their unbelief and rejection toward the Lord Jesus Christ, the majority of Israelites have indeed been cut off for a time from these covenants of promise, and shall continue to be “until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” (See Romans 11:25)

So then, how does this relate unto your question? 

1.  The covenants of promise are the foundational root for the Israelites as a people, which is their root possession naturally.

2.  Because of their unbelief in and rejection of Christ, the Israelites as a people have spiritually fallen and been cut off from their own covenants of promise.

3.  Through faith in Christ, we Gentiles may be grafted into the Israelites’ covenants of promise, such that we may somewhat experience the “fatness” of those covenants.

4.  Through rebellion against God, we Gentiles may also be cut off from some of the “fatness” and privileges of the covenants of promise into which we have been grafted.

5.  Through faith in Christ, individual Israelites may be grafted back into the covenants of promise from which they have been cut off.

6.  At the Second Coming of Christ, the Israelites as a people will be restored unto the fullness and “fatness” of their covenants of promise.