Israel attacks U.S.

[Heir of Salvation]

20 minutes ago, Salyan said:

 America, Australia and the U.K., however, are no less secular and godless than she.

I disagree.

As a whole, they are.  Of course these are generalizations and everywhere there is Godlessness. 

But I think it is pietism and humility (good traits for sure) but not fact that makes you want to say that.  From a strictly statistical standpoint for instance, There are far more people in those nations, indeed in the Western World as a whole who embrace the Messiah than there are in Israel.  It's getting worse here of course, but Israel is more secular than those countries and there are far fewer Christians in Israel than in the U.S. U.K. Australia et al.  There is not even a lot of Orthodox practitioners of Judaism in Israel.  It's a very humanistic country.

Thanks be to God, it won't be forever, but it is for now.

 

[Salyan]

I don't know what pietism is, and I can't be humble cause none of those countries is mine. But no country in this world is godly. Some had a veneer of it for a time, but even that is long gone on this continent. These nations do not honor God.

Oh, and as for 'western gentile Christianity'? Don't forget that 'in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek', and the western church is generally complacent and lukewarm compared to the eastern church that is currently under persecution. I think you have a romantic view of our nations and our churches that does not reflect reality. 

[Heir of Salvation]

On 9/3/2016 at 5:05 PM, wretched said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Heir of Salvation]

I don't know what pietism is, 

Root word "piety".....an obsession  with remaining "pious" or monastically humble.  I was saying that you were erring on the side of caution because you said that those Nations so mentioned were "No less secular" than Israel.  You are (I think) Canadian....but you don't want to think too highly of yourself and you wish to remain humble in God's sight....That's what I mean.  "Pietism" CAN MEAN something like someone who is disingenuously pious.  

But that wasn't what I meant there..... I was suggesting that your natural bent towards humility that every Christian should have balks (quite naturally) at what I'm saying.  That's a good trait, but, I think it gets in the way of what I'm arguing here.

and I can't be humble cause none of those countries is mine.

Sure you can.

You are a humble person.....almost to a fault.

But no country in this world is godly. 

True.

Which is to say, Ultimately...........as far as the lives of the individual inhabitants....no country is properly truly full of "Godly" persons but, at the same time I think that the "veneer" as you call it is actually important...even if we are whited sepulchres on the inside.

Some had a veneer of it for a time,

I think the "veneer" of it matters actually.

It suggests something about the inside of the people.  The people may sin, they may be hypocrites, they may sin when they think they are in darkness................but they aren't "painted whores"....they don't yet have a "whore's forhead".

 

Jer 3:3

Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

There's a different level of wickedness when you are shamelessly  ungodly.  A desire to at least hide one's shame bespeaks a conscientiousness of Godliness not always shared by others.  The idea is that you no longer even blush when you are shamelessly ungodly:

Those Western nations at least pretend to blush....just a little.  

but even that is long gone on this continent.

Not entirely... Mostly, but not entirely.  It NEVER existed with the Nation of Israel though.

These nations do not honor God.

Yes they do.

What I just posted was at least Britain and Australia putting a National face on Christianity.  Of course, on the inside, in the aggregate, the people are often lost......the nation itself doesn't dishonor God.  It at least pretends to.  

David Hobson's song was an uberly Christian (even Dispensational) view of Christian Christian ethic. Granted, they aren't perfect. and granted, they are probably (as individuals) as lost as anyone.....but the Nation isn't "Godless" not like Israel is.

This is actually my "shout-out" to pretentiousness....to faux Christianity....to being a "whited sepulchre"....to complete and utter hypocrisy.

A nation completely devoid of Godliness which at least PRETENDS towards Godliness is in better shape than one which doesn't honor God even in the abstract....that's what I'm contending.

Oh, and as for 'western gentile Christianity'? Don't forget that 'in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek',

Not "In Christ" as you correctly state......but in the Nation....there is the "Christian" and the "Jew"...at least in the national contiousness.  I actually contend that that matters.

and the western church is generally complacent and lukewarm compared to the eastern church that is currently under persecution.

Probably true.

The Eastern Church would be equally complacent under the same circumstances:

Christianity is embedded in Western Culture though.  That's not easily dismissed.

I think you have a romantic view of our nations and our churches that does not reflect reality.

I don't think so.  I'm not contending that we are over-run with Godly people desperate to reach the world with the gospel.  This isn't about the PERSONAL state of any nation's inhabitants.  I'm not arguing the personal life of a Western Christian vs. the Israeli or Eastern Christian....I'm arguing something more abstract like the "NATIONAL" concsciousness.

Britain at least PRETENDS to honor God....as The concert at the Royal Albert Hall suggests........that's downtown London.  Kings and Queens go to the Royal Albert Hall.  They are married and they are crowned by the Bishop of Canterbury...it's in their National blood.   

There's a difference between being unrighteous (but only secretly) and shamefacedly shaking your fist at God.

Britain, Australia, U.S....etc...they at least have enough FEAR of God that they pretend to care about righteousness (even though they don't really as you rightly say).

I think you are a whole lot better off if you at least PRETEND towards righteousness whilst committing every sin known to man than if you shake your fist at God in the process:

Psa 111:10

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever

Those Western Nations aren't really righteous...............

but they fear God enough to pretend to be.  Israel does not.

That makes a difference.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Heir of Salvation

[Particular Baptist]

On August 29, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

Hypothetical situation.

Israel attacks the U.S. And you are commander in chief. Do you respond by attacking Israel in defense of the U.S.? Will God curse you for attacking them in this situation? 

This actually happened at least twice with the 1950s Lavon Affair and 1967 USS Liberty bombing. Theory it is not. Considering that Jesus Christ is the head of the Jeremiah 31 new covenant, and the Jews reject Christ wholeheartedly (though not all), they actually broke Moses in raising a false report, and Christ who said not to murder and hate unrighteously in the heart. See Romans 2.28-9 and the letter to Galatia. Here is where the Jews speak about it in their Jerusalem Post. The POTUSes each apologized to the Jews. 

 

I leave the satanic, evil traditions of the elders for another time... Take a look at Schäfer's Jesus in the Talmud or Luther's The Jews and Their Lies...

Edited September 8, 2016 by Particular Baptist

[Brother D]

I'm a traditional Fundamentalist Baptist.  And, by traditional, I mean ca1900, maybe even 1611, but not 2018.  

I was raised in a Dispensationalist church and for most of my life, that's the only eschatology I knew.  But, I was always bothered by the, uh, perverted things supporters of Israel kept saying, such as their treatment of the Palestinians as the oppressors, rather than the oppressed, and then complaining that Israel isn't oppressive enough.  The OP reminds me of that, if Israel attacks the US, "Do you respond by attacking Israel in defense of the U.S.?"   Uh, yes.  If I were Commander and Chief, if Israel attacked us, I'd wipe that, Zionist, Antichristian regime off the map.   The audacity of Israel to attack the hand that has fed them and protected them from their neighbors, whom they continually provoke.  We've wiped out other regimes for less.

How could anyone even hesitate to respond to any attack on the US?   

Dispensationism was nearly non-existent before the 20th century.  You have your 1611 Bibles, get yourself some 1611 doctrine.  

After being raised in a Dispensationalist church and struggling with that nasty and esoteric doctrine, it was great relief for me when I really did start reading the Bible and discovered that it isn't biblical.  And, when I started studying church history, I discovered that it really is just a modern doctrine.  The church is the Israel of God and Christians are the heirs of the promises to Abraham.  The book of Revelation only refers to Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt.  The book of Revelation only refers to "Jews" as the synagogue of Satan.  

Israel attempted to sink the USS Liberty (205 American casualties) and has committed other acts of war against the US.  We've led Israel slide on these things and accepted their absurd claim that their sustained attack on the USS Liberty was a mistake.     

[Jim_Alaska]

"a traditional fundamentalist Baptist" huh?  

[Salyan]

On 7/4/2018 at 6:55 PM, Brother D said:

I'm a traditional Fundamentalist Baptist.  And, by traditional, I mean ca1900, maybe even 1611, but not 2018.  

The church is the Israel of God and Christians are the heirs of the promises to Abraham.  The book of Revelation only refers to Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt.  The book of Revelation only refers to "Jews" as the synagogue of Satan.  

Wow, you must be really old! (sorry, sorry, couldn't resist!) 

 

These statements seriously conflate believing Israel with the unbelieving Jews. Don't forget that: "...the gifts & calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29) Scripture must also be studied and considered as a whole.

Don't forget Who among those mentioned in Revelation is also a Jew (Revelation 5:5). 

This may be a bit snarky (it's been one of those days at work!), but notice the only earth city whose name survives into the New Earth. It's not New York or Washington.

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband... And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:" (Rev. 21:2,10-12)

 

[Brother D]

15 hours ago, Salyan said:

These statements seriously conflate believing Israel with the unbelieving Jews. Don't forget that: "...the gifts & calling of God are without repentance." (Romans 11:29) Scripture must also be studied and considered as a whole.

Don't forget Who among those mentioned in Revelation is also a Jew (Revelation 5:5). 

This may be a bit snarky (it's been one of those days at work!), but notice the only earth city whose name survives into the New Earth. It's not New York or Washington.

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband... And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:" (Rev. 21:2,10-12)

 

God's gifts and callings were not to a race, but to a faith. That is why you don't call Arab's God's chosen people.  God didn't revoke his promise to Abraham concerning Ishmael.  The elect in Romans 11:28 aren't racial Jews; they were Believers under the  old covenant.

The Jerusalem in Rev 21 is the church, the bride of Christ.  The names of the twelve tribes are the patriarchs of the faith.  

 

 

[Jim_Alaska]

The Scripture in Rev. 21 says plainly that the New Jerusalem is a literal city.  Re 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, 

A bit later in Rev 21 The Scripture goes on to describe it as a city not a church. 

 Re 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 
 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 
 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 
 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 
 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 
 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 
 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 
 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 
 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 

[Jim_Alaska]

1 hour ago, Brother D said:

The Jerusalem in Rev 21 is the church, the bride of Christ.

Which church?

[Salyan]

5 hours ago, Brother D said:

The names of the twelve tribes are the patriarchs of the faith. 

Um, no. You really don't get it much clearer than 'the 12 tribes of the children of Israel'. To try to interpret that any other way is willful ignorance. 

[DaveW]

3 hours ago, Salyan said:

Um, no. You really don't get it much clearer than 'the 12 tribes of the children of Israel'. To try to interpret that any other way is willful ignorance. 

Got it in one - the problem that Brother D has I mean.

And of course spot on with the reference too.

 

[Brother D]

7 hours ago, Salyan said:

Um, no. You really don't get it much clearer than 'the 12 tribes of the children of Israel'. To try to interpret that any other way is willful ignorance. 

The New Testament calls Abraham our father, the father of Christians.  The patriarchs of the 12 tribes are the patriarchs of the Christian faith. The New Jerusalem that has their names is the church, we know because it's identified as the bride of Christ and Paul calls it our mother.

"Jews" are never mentioned in Revelation, accept for Jesus to call them the synagogue of Satan. The earthly Jerusalem is never mentioned, except when its called Sodom and Egypt.  You might accuse me of willful ignorance, but who is it ignoring the fact that "Jews" and Jerusalem have no place in Revelation except to be condemned 

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveW]

Revelation 21

9  And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 10  And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

 11  Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

 12  And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

 13  On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

 14  And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

In this instance the bride is clearly defined as the New Jerusalem, NOT "the church" - and we still ask "which church" are you referring to?

The twelve tribes are mentioned in co trait to the twelve Apostles - if anything in this was to refer to Christian's it would be the Apostles, not the twelve tribes, especially since the twelve tribes are identified in Revelation 7

4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 5  Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

 6  Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

 7  Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

 8  Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

How could God have said it more plainly than this that He is referring to the twelve actual tribes of Israel?

Don't let the truth hit you on your way out......