The Spiritual Progression of Human Souls.

[John Young]

8 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Could you please explain, according to your position, what it means for a human individual to be born "under sin" (as per Romans 3:9 & Galatians 3:22)?

Simply that God creates and sustains every man but that same man enters a world subject to sin and death as a consequence of Adam's sin. Just as a man who is "born Russian" is at birth just the same as one "born American", each are subject to different cultures and governments which will teach that person to conform to their unique society.While man is under sin, he himself is not a sinner until he actually sins. However that man "born under sin" will sin because the sin nature teaches him to willfully conform to it thru the man's weak flesh even though inside he has the law of God written in his heart. While we are all created by God to be after His image and likeness, we choose to sin and by the law of God learn that we are sinners.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 0:43 AM, John Young said:

Simply that God creates and sustains every man but that same man enters a world subject to sin and death as a consequence of Adam's sin. Just as a man who is "born Russian" is at birth just the same as one "born American", each are subject to different cultures and governments which will teach that person to conform to their unique society.While man is under sin, he himself is not a sinner until he actually sins. However that man "born under sin" will sin because the sin nature teaches him to willfully conform to it thru the man's weak flesh even though inside he has the law of God written in his heart. While we are all created by God to be after His image and likeness, we choose to sin and by the law of God learn that we are sinners.

Brother Young,

I thank you for providing the explanation of your position concerning the phrase "all under sin."

However, as for myself, I prefer to accept the explanation of God the Holy Himself concerning what it means for all to be "under sin."  In Romans 3:9 God the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to declare, "What then?  Are we better than they?  No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin."  Furthermore, in Galatians 3:22 God the Holy Spirit inspired him to declare, "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."  As such, we can expect that the evidence and explanation for this truth, that all are "under sin," is to be found through the Old Testament Scriptures.  Even so, in Romans 3:10-12 God the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to present a series of quotes from the Old Testament Scriptures as that very evidence and explanation -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."  (Note: It is worthy of consideration that grammatically the sentence of Romans 3:9 does not conclude at the end of the verse, but continues with the quotations of Romans 3:10-11.)  This then serves as the explanation of God the Holy Spirit Himself for what He means by the truth that all are "under sin."

So then, let us consider the individual statements of this Holy Spirit inspired explanation --

1.  "There is none righteous, no, not one."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who is spiritually righteous before God?

2.  "There is none that understandeth."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who has spiritual understanding?

3.  "There is none that seeketh after God."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who is seeking after God?

4.  "They are all gone out of the way."  So the, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who has not spiritually gone out of God's way?

5.  "They are together become unprofitable."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who is not spiritually unprofitable in the sight of God?

6.  "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who has done good in the sight of God?

__________________________________________________

In addition, let us consider the relationship that is indicated by the preposition "under" in the phrase "all under sin," as that relationship is presented throughout the epistle of Romans.  By definition the preposition "under" indicates a relationship of location, wherein all of us as individual humans are located "under sin" and wherein sin is located over all of us as individual humans.  So then, in what manner are we located "under sin" and is sin located over us?  In Romans 7:14 the apostle speaks of being "sold under sin," just as a slave is sold under the authority of his master.  Furthermore, in Romans 6:14 the apostle speaks to believers and indicates that sin should no longer "have dominion over" us.  As such, the epistle of Romans presents the relationship of sin over all of us individual humans (apart from salvation through Christ) and of our being "under sin" (apart from salvation through Christ) as one of a master that rules over his slaves.  Indeed, this understanding is substantiated by the following statements throughout the epistle of Romans --

Romans 3:21 -- "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Romans 6:6-7 -- "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.  For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Romans 6:12 -- "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

Romans 6:14 -- "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

Romans 6:17-22 -- "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.  I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.  For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.  What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed?  For the end of those things is death.  But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

Even so, we may understand that the relationship which is expressed by the phrase "all under sin" in Romans 3:9 is a relationship wherein sin is a slave master over all of us as human individuals (apart from salvation through Christ) and wherein we all (apart from salvation through Christ) are bound under spiritual slavery to the mastery of sin.  Furthermore, since this is true for all human individuals, this truth concerning spiritual slavery to sin would also be applicable unto each and every newborn baby.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[John Young]

19 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Young,

I thank you for providing the explanation of your position concerning the phrase "all under sin."

However, as for myself, I prefer to accept the explanation of God the Holy Himself concerning what it means for all to be "under sin."  In Romans 3:9 God the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to declare, "What then?  Are we better than they?  No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin."  Furthermore, in Galatians 3:22 God the Holy Spirit inspired him to declare, "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."  As such, we can expect that the evidence and explanation for this truth, that all are "under sin," is to be found through the Old Testament Scriptures.  Even so, in Romans 3:10-12 God the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to present a series of quotes from the Old Testament Scriptures as that very evidence and explanation -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way[implies that they were at one time in the way], they are together become unprofitable [implies that at one time they were profitable]; there is none that doeth good [implies that because they are not in the way and not profitable then NOW they are not doing good], no, not one."  (Note: It is worthy of consideration that grammatically the sentence of Romans 3:9 does not conclude at the end of the verse, but continues with the quotations of Romans 3:10-11.)  This then serves as the explanation of God the Holy Spirit Himself for what He means by the truth that all are "under sin."

So then, let us consider the individual statements of this Holy Spirit inspired explanation --[Contextually your questions are in error. Verse 9-11 is statement of fact and verse 12-19 is the explanation of why that fact is true. Contextually this passage is about those in active open rebellion. It cannot textually, or even rationally, apply to newborns and those without knowledge of good and evil. Psalm 53 bares out that he was looking for the fruit of his upright creation but found only that they all departed from Him. 1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity:there is none that doeth good. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;there is none that doeth good, no, not one.4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.]

1.  "There is none righteous, no, not one."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who is spiritually righteous before God? 

2.  "There is none that understandeth."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who has spiritual understanding? A lost man and a newborn do not understand for completely different reasons. The lost man because he has deceived himself by sin and refuses to understand even though it is clearly shown to him. The newborn because he does not know anything. The passage is clearly referring to the lost man.

3.  "There is none that seeketh after God."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who is seeking after God? 

4.  "They are all gone out of the way."  So the, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who has not spiritually gone out of God's way?

5.  "They are together become unprofitable."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who is not spiritually unprofitable in the sight of God?

6.  "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, including even a newborn baby, who has done good in the sight of God?

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified himnot as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

__________________________________________________

In addition, let us consider the relationship that is indicated by the preposition "under" in the phrase "all under sin," as that relationship is presented throughout the epistle of Romans.  By definition the preposition "under" indicates a relationship of location, wherein all of us as individual humans are located "under sin" and wherein sin is located over all of us as individual humans.  So then, in what manner are we located "under sin" and is sin located over us?  In Romans 7:14 the apostle speaks of being "sold under sin," just as a slave  is sold under the authority of his master.  Furthermore, in Romans 6:14 the apostle speaks to believers and indicates that sin should no longer "have dominion over" us.  As such, the epistle of Romans presents the relationship of sin over all of us individual humans (apart from salvation through Christ) and of our being "under sin" (apart from salvation through Christ) as one of a master that rules over his slaves.  Indeed, this understanding is substantiated by the following statements throughout the epistle of Romans --[The slave concept implies that we are the property of sin. Scripture does not use slave but servant, as one sold to a master in order to pay off a debt. Christ redeems us all from sin. He does not treat us as if we legitimately originated with sin. We were all His, created by Him but sold ourselves to sin. Christ is redeeming something that was already His. We were never born sin's property but by choice our souls fell from innocents and are under sin until the redemption. Christ came to seek and to save that which was LOST. That fact alone indicated that we belonged to Him.]

Romans 6:12-2312 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

.....................................................................................

Even so, we may understand that the relationship which is expressed by the phrase "all under sin" in Romans 3:9 is a relationship wherein sin is a slave master over all of us as human individuals (apart from salvation through Christ) and wherein we all (apart from salvation through Christ) are bound under spiritual slavery to the mastery of sin.  Furthermore, since this is true for all human individuals, this truth concerning spiritual slavery to sin would also be applicable unto each and every newborn baby.[Then by this same logic which you have employed, do even Newborns (and/or the conceived but unborn) need to accept Christ in order to be saved from hell.....? why or why not? This same logic is also the foundation for why many teach the need for infant baptism.]

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

19 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Young,

I thank you for providing the explanation of your position concerning the phrase "all under sin."

However, as for myself, I prefer to accept the explanation of God the Holy Himself concerning what it means for all to be "under sin."  In Romans 3:9 God the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to declare, "What then?  Are we better than they?  No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin."  Furthermore, in Galatians 3:22 God the Holy Spirit inspired him to declare, "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."  As such, we can expect that the evidence and explanation for this truth, that all are "under sin," is to be found through the Old Testament Scriptures.  Even so, in Romans 3:10-12 God the Holy Spirit inspired the apostle Paul to present a series of quotes from the Old Testament Scriptures as that very evidence and explanation -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.  They are all gone out of the way[implies that they were at one time in the way], they are together become unprofitable [implies that at one time they were profitable]; there is none that doeth good [implies that because they are not in the way and not profitable then NOW they are not doing good], no, not one."  (Note: It is worthy of consideration that grammatically the sentence of Romans 3:9 does not conclude at the end of the verse, but continues with the quotations of Romans 3:10-11.)  This then serves as the explanation of God the Holy Spirit Himself for what He means by the truth that all are "under sin."

So then, let us consider the individual statements of this Holy Spirit inspired explanation --[Contextually your questions are in error. Verse 9-11 is statement of fact and verse 12-19 is the explanation of why that fact is true. Contextually this passage is about those in active open rebellion. It cannot textually, or even rationally, apply to newborns and those without knowledge of good and evil. Psalm 53 bares out that he was looking for the fruit of his upright creation but found only that they all departed from Him. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;there is none that doeth good, no, not one.4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.]

Ah, so then in your position you believe, in direct contradiction to the actual statements of God's Word in Romans 3:10-12, that --

1.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who are spiritually righteous before God, maybe even one.
2.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who have not yet gone out of God's way spiritually.
3.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who are yet spiritually profitable in the sight of God.
4.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who have done good in the sight of God, maybe even one.

Although God the Holy Spirit inspired the universal words "all," "none," and "no, not one," in this context, you deny the universal nature of these spiritual descriptives, claiming that newborn babies are for a time after birth excluded from their application.  Now, I recognize that you will explain this as, not a denial of these universal terms, but as a limitation of these universal terms unto the limited set of "those in active, open rebellion."  However, the context of Romans 3:9-12 does NOT establish such as the set of individuals unto which these universal statements apply.  Rather, Romans 3:9 itself establishes that set of individuals as follows: "For we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin."  So then, God the Holy Spirit intends that we should apply this passage unto all Jews and all Gentiles as a whole.

19 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, let us consider the individual statements of this Holy Spirit inspired explanation --[Contextually your questions are in error. Verse 9-11 is statement of fact and verse 12-19 is the explanation of why that fact is true. Contextually this passage is about those in active open rebellion. It cannot textually, or even rationally, apply to newborns and those without knowledge of good and evil. Psalm 53 bares out that he was looking for the fruit of his upright creation but found only that they all departed from Him. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy;there is none that doeth good, no, not one.4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.]

Actually, the grammar of the passage is that Romans 3:9-11 is a singular sentence, and that Romans 3:12-18 is an additional series of factual statements.  Contextually, the primary concept for the passage is that which is presented in Romans 3:9 -- "What then?  Are we better than they?  No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin."  Grammatically, the continuation of the sentence of Romans 3:9 into Romans 3:10-11 is established by the phrase, "as it is written."  This phrase indicates that what proceeds will be quotation from the Old Testament Scriptures that give evidence and explanation for the primary concept of Romans 3:9.  Now, since you yourself have acknowledged your acceptance of the truth that all universally are "under sin," then you should also be willing by the grammar and context to apply the statements of Romans 3:10-11 unto all universally as well.  However, rather than accept the explanation of God the Holy Spirit Himself through quotation of the Old Testament Scriptures concerning what it means for all to be "under sin," you prefer to formulate your own explanation thereof.

On the other hand, you indicate that Romans 3:12-16 serves contextually as the reasons for the factual statements of Romans 3:9-11.  However, this is not accurate with the context.  Actually, Romans 3:12-16 presents equally as factual statements from the Old Testament Scriptures as does Romans 3:10-11.  Therefore, we should understand that within this context the phrase, "as it is written," encompasses all of the factual statements in Romans 3:10-16.  Furthermore, we do not find a word of "causation," such as the conjunction "for," before the passage of Romans 3:12-16 to indicate that it is presenting the cause for the statements of Romans 3:9-11 as you claim.  Thus the grammar and context does not fit your purpose as well as you may present.

In addition, let us recognize that there are two other universal "alls" concerning the sinful condition of human individuals within the context of Romans 3:9-ff.  They are Romans 3:19 & Romans 3:23.

1.  Romans 3:23 -- "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, including even a newborn baby, who has not sinned against God?  Furthermore, is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who has not "come short of the glory of God"?

2.  Romans 3:19 -- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who does not stand as spiritually guilty before God?

Now, being "spiritually guilty" before God and being "spiritually innocent" before God are two contradictory conditions.  A human individual cannot be both "spiritually guilty" and "spiritually innocent" before God at the same time.  So then, I present unto you Romans 3:19  as a clear passage of Scripture which teaches that all human individuals universally, including newborn babies, stand spiritually guilty before God.  Indeed, Romans 3:19 specifically employs the word "guilty" in application unto "all the world" concerning their spiritual standing "before God."  Do you have a passage of Scripture which teaches that all newborn babies begin as spiritually innocent before God?  Do you have a passage that specifically employs the word "innocent" in application unto all babies concerning their spiritual standing before God?

__________________________________________________________

20 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In addition, let us consider the relationship that is indicated by the preposition "under" in the phrase "all under sin," as that relationship is presented throughout the epistle of Romans.  By definition the preposition "under" indicates a relationship of location, wherein all of us as individual humans are located "under sin" and wherein sin is located over all of us as individual humans.  So then, in what manner are we located "under sin" and is sin located over us?  In Romans 7:14 the apostle speaks of being "sold under sin," just as a slave  is sold under the authority of his master.  Furthermore, in Romans 6:14 the apostle speaks to believers and indicates that sin should no longer "have dominion over" us.  As such, the epistle of Romans presents the relationship of sin over all of us individual humans (apart from salvation through Christ) and of our being "under sin" (apart from salvation through Christ) as one of a master that rules over his slaves.  Indeed, this understanding is substantiated by the following statements throughout the epistle of Romans --[The slave concept implies that we are the property of sin. Scripture does not use slave but servant, as one sold to a master in order to pay off a debt. Christ redeems us all from sin. He does not treat us as if we legitimately originated with sin. We were all His, created by Him but sold ourselves to sin. Christ is redeeming something that was already His. We were never born sin's property but by choice our souls fell from innocents and are under sin until the redemption. Christ came to seek and to save that which was LOST. That fact alone indicated that we belonged to Him.]

Indeed, you are correct that Romans 6:17, 20 employ the terminology of bond-servant/slave.  Yet this terminology still retains the idea of complete mastery by the master of that bond-servanthood.  The bond-servant/slave did NOT have any freedom do whatever he might please.  He was wholly bound under the authority of his master (until his bond was paid and his freedom was thereby purchased).  Indeed, the epistle of Romans also employs the authoritative, "mastery" terminology of reigning and dominion in order to describe this relationship.  So then, my conclusion may simply be changed from the following, "So then, the epistle of Romans presents the relationship of sin over all of us individual humans (apart from salvation through Christ) and of our being "under sin" (apart from salvation through Christ) as one of a master that rules over his slaves" -- unto the following, "So then, the epistle of Romans presents the relationship of sin over all of us individual humans (apart from salvation through Christ) and of our being "under sin" (apart from salvation through Christ) as one of a master that rules over his bond-servants."  As such, this communicates nothing at all different concerning the mastery of sin over ALL human individuals, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ.  This only communicate the implication that there is indeed a possible way for the bond to be paid and for freedom to be obtained -- Praise the Lord our God for His gracious and mercy plan of salvation through Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord.

Now then, you claim the following -- "He [Christ] does not treat us as if we legitimately originated with sin. We were all His, created by Him but sold ourselves to sin. Christ is redeeming something that was already His. We were never born sin's property but by choice our souls fell from innocents and are under sin until the redemption. Christ came to seek and to save that which was LOST. That fact alone indicated that we belonged to Him."  However, in accord with the teaching of Romans 5:12-19, we find, not that we sold ourselves under sin's mastery by our own willful choice of sin, but that we all were sold under sin's mastery by Adam's willful choice of sin.  Indeed, we are the Lord's ownership through creation.  Yet the entire human race was sold under sin's mastery through "one man's disobedience."  Therefore, Christ our Savior sacrificed Himself on the cross in order to redeem us out of sin's mastery unto His mastery.

20 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Even so, we may understand that the relationship which is expressed by the phrase "all under sin" in Romans 3:9 is a relationship wherein sin is a slave master over all of us as human individuals (apart from salvation through Christ) and wherein we all (apart from salvation through Christ) are bound under spiritual slavery to the mastery of sin.  Furthermore, since this is true for all human individuals, this truth concerning spiritual slavery to sin would also be applicable unto each and every newborn baby.[Then by this same logic which you have employed, do even Newborns (and/or the conceived but unborn) need to accept Christ in order to be saved from hell.....? why or why not? This same logic is also the foundation for why many teach the need for infant baptism.]

Indeed.  Since (according to my "logic") all babies are conceived already under sin's mastery, they must be eternally redeemed in order to be saved; and since (according to my "logic") all babies are conceived already with a spirit that is "dead in trespasses and sins," they must be eternally regenerated in order to be saved.   Now then, I am not aware that God's Holy Word provides any other divine plan for eternal redemption from sin's mastery or any other divine plan for eternal regeneration from our sin nature, but through faith in Christ the Savior.  Yet I recognize that this is the real issue for you.  You are seeking to develop some doctrinal system wherein all babies begin in this world as spiritually innocent before God, being neither under sin's mastery to begin nor "dead in trespasses and sins" to begin.

Concerning "infant baptism" -- It is not really of any relevancy in a discussion with me, since I fully recognize that no form or manner of baptism has ever or will ever be able to provide either eternal redemption or eternal regeneration unto a any human individual.

[Jim_Alaska]

Bro. John, I respectfully suggest that your ideas and arguments in this thread are a complete rejection of the doctrine of the total depravity of man. This doctrine and Scriptural teaching is at the root of why we need a Saviour. The need of a Saviour is paramount simply because we are born with a "sin nature" and cannot choose to do good outside of the provision of Christ as our sacrifice and our acceptance of His provision.  Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. 

The very premise that we are able to choose to do good outside of Christ smacks of works for salvation. If Christ died for "all", then "all" were dead.  Ga 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

 Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 
 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 
 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 

[wretched]

IMO, there is a fine line between these two lines of thought.

Are we helpless sinners without choice and therefore without accountability?

OR

Are we simply without Spiritual life and too weak in our flesh to avoid unrighteousness.

Or how about these reworded:

We are slaves to sin because we are too weak to do anything about it in ourselves and God knows it through foreknowledge that there would never be even one righteous. God does mention a few choice men who were far closer than most indicating that He does keep tabs as Rev 20:12 confirms.  

OR

We are slaves to sin and cannot in any way do anything about it, after the fall God purposed for us to be helpless, without free will and to unable avoid unrighteousness and condemnation.

IMO the later above is the T in tulip, just as much as Irresistible Grace is the I and neither are Bible doctrine. It is the difference between God being in total control and we have zero free will or accountability or God knowing all and simply stating the facts of His foreknowledge within His Word..... Can there be accountability without free will? At the Great White Throne all will be judged based on the 66 books of God's Word according to their works. Why would that be if no one had any choice to sin or not to sin.

I see not a single passage of Scripture indicating that God decided to make us helpless, condemned sinners after the fall. Every passage I read dealing with this issue reads to me that this is just how it happened, how it is and how it will be until the new Heaven and earth. The simple facts that mankind lost its Spiritual life along with the curse of sin on the world itself and satan's dominion over it certainly stacks the odds against anyone trying to choose righteousness.

IMO we are accountable and cannot even blame Adam for our condition. If we were not accountable then God would not be just and we all know that justice was invented by God with Him being the Standard of justice for all to see, learn and emulate. Romans indicates quite clearly that we all carry personal accountability from Adam to us this day.

This is not a questioning of God's motives in any way (or as some like to quote out of context when these types of discussions come up: God's ways are not our ways), this is simply understanding His Word cover to cover. If you choose sin you pay the consequences, period. 

Am I saying any human could earn salvation through their own righteousness - Absolutely not

Am I saying however, that we all choose to sin....God did not cause it to be so - Absolutely

Am I saying it is possible for a human to live sinlessly in this present world - Absolutely not. But the reason is not because God made it impossible for us. The reason is because God says no one has nor ever will based on His omniscience. Hence the need of The Redeemer.

"There is none righteous, no, not one". Is this God's omniscience speaking or His declaration that He made all after Adam Hell bound sinners on purpose? 

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable". Is this God's omniscience speaking again or His declaration that He made all after Adam hell bound sinners on purpose?

Every passage quoted in this thread sounds clearly to me of the former - God's omniscience is speaking in His Word. Just as predestination is God's foreknowledge so is our sin cursed "nature" after Adam.

Also, I am not saying that anyone in this thread is directly claiming that God made us hell bound sinners on purpose but it (perhaps inadvertently) and indirectly reads that way.

 

 

[John Young]

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Ah, so then in your position you believe, in direct contradiction to the actual statements of God's Word in Romans 3:10-12, that --[Again I would have to say your questions were in error as presented and that your assumed answers below are in error as well. My statements are not in conflict with the scripture but rather your assumptions about them. It seems that you do not understand the doctrine of innocents as presented in the OP or I am not communicating it properly. I'm dealing in particular with the initial stage of the soul when a person is born.Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.]

1.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who are spiritually righteous before God, maybe even one. [My position is that souls created by God into this world of sin are initially innocent. Nothing more. Not righteous nor wicked. Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.]
2.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who have not yet gone out of God's way spiritually. [Yes because God gave each their spirit. Psalm 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.]
3.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who are yet spiritually profitable in the sight of God.
4.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who have done good in the sight of God, maybe even one.[From the moment we sin, no, and all will sin. I never indicated that I though we could of our own selves make it without sinning. No matter how good we try to be. The point here is that the innocent do not know to sin or do good.]

Now, being "spiritually guilty" before God and being "spiritually innocent" before God are two contradictory conditions.  A human individual cannot be both "spiritually guilty" and "spiritually innocent" before God at the same time.  So then, I present unto you Romans 3:19  as a clear passage of Scripture which teaches that all human individuals universally, including newborn babies, stand spiritually guilty before God.  Indeed, Romans 3:19 specifically employs the word "guilty" in application unto "all the world" concerning their spiritual standing "before God."  Do you have a passage of Scripture which teaches that all newborn babies begin as spiritually innocent before God?  Do you have a passage that specifically employs the word "innocent" in application unto all babies concerning their spiritual standing before God? "Become guilty" is a progressive statement. It is not in conflict at all. I already addressed this point in a previous post about the spirit. Our actions prove that we are ALL guilty because of our own sinning.

__________________________________________________________

Now then, you claim the following -- "He [Christ] does not treat us as if we legitimately originated with sin. We were all His, created by Him but sold ourselves to sin. Christ is redeeming something that was already His. We were never born sin's property but by choice our souls fell from innocents and are under sin until the redemption. Christ came to seek and to save that which was LOST. That fact alone indicated that we belonged to Him."  However, in accord with the teaching of Romans 5:12-19, we find, not that we sold ourselves under sin's mastery by our own willful choice of sin, but that we all were sold under sin's mastery by Adam's willful choice of sin.  Indeed, we are the Lord's ownership through creation.  Yet the entire human race was sold under sin's mastery through "one man's disobedience."  Therefore, Christ our Savior sacrificed Himself on the cross in order to redeem us out of sin's mastery unto His mastery. [The point here I was making is that while we are under sin's dominion it is still our sins that take us to hell. Not the mere fact of being in the world of sin.]

Indeed.  Since (according to my "logic") all babies are conceived already under sin's mastery, they must be eternally redeemed in order to be saved; and since (according to my "logic") all babies are conceived already with a spirit that is "dead in trespasses and sins," they must be eternally regenerated in order to be saved.   Now then, I am not aware that God's Holy Word provides any other divine plan for eternal redemption from sin's mastery or any other divine plan for eternal regeneration from our sin nature, but through faith in Christ the Savior.  Yet I recognize that this is the real issue for you.[it is an issue insomuch as I'm simply trying to  understand the scriptural teachings on it.]  You are seeking to develop some doctrinal system wherein all babies begin in this world as spiritually innocent before God, being neither under sin's mastery to begin nor "dead in trespasses and sins" to begin. [Are you saying here that they are part of the elect before having faith? Not quite sure one your point here. Perhaps if you could clarify your view on how King David's child, not yet having faith, was able to go to heaven?]

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Ah, so then in your position you believe, in direct contradiction to the actual statements of God's Word in Romans 3:10-12, that --[Again I would have to say your questions were in error as presented and that your assumed answers below are in error as well. My statements are not in conflict with the scripture but rather your assumptions about them. It seems that you do not understand the doctrine of innocents as presented in the OP or I am not communicating it properly. I'm dealing in particular with the initial stage of the soul when a person is born.Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.]

No sir.  I believe that I understand the position that you have presented well enough.  I believe that you are presenting the progression of the human soul, as follows:

1.  First, there is the spiritual condition of innocence, wherein the soul is not viewed by God as either righteous or unrighteous, which condition will end as soon as God holds that soul accountable for its first act of willful sin.  (Note: I believe that you would then hold that if such a soul dies while in this condition of innocence, that soul will not perish in hell, but will have everlasting life with God.  However, I do not know how you would answer the question -- On the grounds of whose righteousness would that soul have everlasting life with God?)

2.  Second, from the moment wherein God holds a soul accountable for its first act of willful sin, there is the spiritual condition of unrighteousness/sinfulness, wherein that soul is now "dead in trespasses and sins" and is now guilty of condemnation before God.  (Note: I believe that you would then hold that if such a soul dies while in this condition of unrighteousness, that soul would will indeed perish forever and ever under the wrath of God in hell.)

3.  Third, if a soul who is in the condition of unrighteousness comes unto Christ through heart-faith as Savior from sin, that soul will be graciously and eternally redeemed, regenerated, justified, and saved by God, so as to enter the condition of righteousness, not having his own righteousness, but having Christ's righteousness, from which condition that soul can never be lost by any means.  (Note: I believe that you would then hold that if such a soul dies while in the condition of righteousness, that soul will spend eternity with God as one who possesses everlasting life.)

Indeed, I am aware that you are seeking to deal "in particular with the initial stage of the soul when a person is born."  Indeed, I am aware that you are seeking to assert that this "initial stage of the soul when a person is born" is a condition of spiritual innocence before God.  So then, what I am seeking to do is to demonstrate Biblically that there is NO SUCH THING as a condition of spiritual innocence before God.  In fact, I am willing to go so far as to say that I do not even believe that Adam was in a spiritual condition of innocence before God prior to his first disobedience.  If unrighteousness is to be defined as disobedience against a command of God's authoritative will and law, then righteousness is to be defined as obedience toward the command of God's authoritative will and law.  So then, on the day wherein Adam was created, did God give him commandments?  Indeed, the Lord God did.  Furthermore, did Adam obey those commandments?  Indeed, Adam did, at least until his first act of disobedience, as per the record of Genesis 3.  So then, Adam was NOT in a condition of spiritual innocence, but was in a condition of righteous obedience -- until his first act of disobedience, whereby he entered into a condition of spiritual unrighteousness and death.

By the way, in their immediate context Ezekiel 18:4 and Ezekiel 18:20 are NOT speaking about an individual's eternal destiny in either hell or heaven.  Rather, in their immediate context these verses are speaking about which individuals among the Israelites the Lord God would judge with physical death, or not.

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who are spiritually righteous before God, maybe even one. [My position is that souls created by God into this world of sin are initially innocent. Nothing more. Not righteous nor wicked. Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.]

Indeed, I am aware of your position concerning your so-called condition of innocence, even as I have indicated above.

Concerning Matthew 18:10 -- Earlier in the context, in Matthew 18:6, our Lord Jesus Christ revealed the spiritual condition of those "little ones" about whom He was speaking in Matthew 18:10; for therein He said, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."  Even so, these little ones would not then have been within your so-called condition of innocence, but would have been in the condition of righteousness through Christ.

Concerning John 1:4 & John 1:9 -- I would need you to explain more clearly your intention with these verses, before I could comfortably respond.

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

2.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who have not yet gone out of God's way spiritually. [Yes because God gave each their spirit. Psalm 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.]
3.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who are yet spiritually profitable in the sight of God.
4.  There are some, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who have done good in the sight of God, maybe even one.    

So then, God the Holy Spirit in Romans 3:12 declares that "all are gone out of the way;" but you, Brother John Young, say that some have not yet gone out of the way.  Seems like a direct contradiction to me.  Thus as for me, I will side with the declaration of God the Holy Spirit.  (Note: In this context, the "all" of this declaration is directly linked to the "all" of Romans 3:9, so that the truth of this declaration applies unto the "all" who are "under sin.")

So then, God the Holy Spirit in Romans 3:12 declares that all are "together become unprofitable;" but you, Brother John Young, say that some are yet spiritually profitable.  Seems like another contradiction to me.  Thus as for me, I will again side with the declaration of God the Holy Spirit.

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In addition, let us recognize that there are two other universal "alls" concerning the sinful condition of human individuals within the context of Romans 3:9-ff.  They are Romans 3:19 & Romans 3:23.

1.  Romans 3:23 -- "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, including even a newborn baby, who has not sinned against God?  Furthermore, is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who has not "come short of the glory of God"?

Now, I noticed that in your above response to me, you completely skipped any reference or comments toward the truth of Romans 3:23.  So then, in your position do you believe that which God the Holy Spirit declared -- that all human individuals, including even babies, have sinned and have come short of God's glory, or not?

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

2.  Romans 3:19 -- "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."  So then, the question may be asked -- Is there a single human individual on the earth, in and of themselves, apart from salvation through Christ, who does not stand as spiritually guilty before God?

Now, being "spiritually guilty" before God and being "spiritually innocent" before God are two contradictory conditions.  A human individual cannot be both "spiritually guilty" and "spiritually innocent" before God at the same time.  So then, I present unto you Romans 3:19  as a clear passage of Scripture which teaches that all human individuals universally, including newborn babies, stand spiritually guilty before God.  Indeed, Romans 3:19 specifically employs the word "guilty" in application unto "all the world" concerning their spiritual standing "before God."  Do you have a passage of Scripture which teaches that all newborn babies begin as spiritually innocent before God?  Do you have a passage that specifically employs the word "innocent" in application unto all babies concerning their spiritual standing before God?  "Become guilty" is a progressive statement. It is not in conflict at all. I already addressed this point in a previous post about the spirit. Our actions prove that we are ALL guilty because of our own sinning.  

Not so.  We all do not stand guilty before God initially because of our sinful actions.  Rather, we all stand guilty before God because of Adam's first disobedience.  Indeed, in Romans 5:18 God the Holy Spirit reveals the following through inspiration, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."  For whom and upon whom does this truth apply?  "All men," that is -- every member of mankind.  What came upon all the members of mankind?  "Judgment . . .to condemnation."  By what means did this judgment to condemnation come upon all?  "By the offence of one," that is -- by Adam's first disobedience.  Indeed, the source of our original guiltiness and condemnation is not our own sin, but is Adam's first sin.  Specifically because we are the children of Adam the sinner, we ourselves are by nature the children of disobedience and the children of wrath.  We are NOT the children of spiritual innocence.

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now then, you claim the following -- "He [Christ] does not treat us as if we legitimately originated with sin. We were all His, created by Him but sold ourselves to sin. Christ is redeeming something that was already His. We were never born sin's property but by choice our souls fell from innocents and are under sin until the redemption. Christ came to seek and to save that which was LOST. That fact alone indicated that we belonged to Him."  However, in accord with the teaching of Romans 5:12-19, we find, not that we sold ourselves under sin's mastery by our own willful choice of sin, but that we all were sold under sin's mastery by Adam's willful choice of sin.  Indeed, we are the Lord's ownership through creation.  Yet the entire human race was sold under sin's mastery through "one man's disobedience."  Therefore, Christ our Savior sacrificed Himself on the cross in order to redeem us out of sin's mastery unto His mastery.  [The point here I was making is that while we are under sin's dominion it is still our sins that take us to hell. Not the mere fact of being in the world of sin.]  

To which I would respond -- No, we are condemned unto God's wrath in hell by our sinful nature, which we acquired through Adam's disobedience, wherein we are spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," and out of which we compound that condemnation through each and every individual act of sinful disobedience.  Indeed, we are not condemned unto God's wrath by "the mere fact of being in a world of sin."  Rather, we are condemned unto God's wrath because we ourselves are by inherent nature sinners.  The condition of the world around is not relevant to the matter.  Rather, the nature of our spirit within us is what is relevant to the matter; and that spirit begins already "dead in trespasses and sins."

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed.  Since (according to my "logic") all babies are conceived already under sin's mastery, they must be eternally redeemed in order to be saved; and since (according to my "logic") all babies are conceived already with a spirit that is "dead in trespasses and sins," they must be eternally regenerated in order to be saved.   Now then, I am not aware that God's Holy Word provides any other divine plan for eternal redemption from sin's mastery or any other divine plan for eternal regeneration from our sin nature, but through faith in Christ the Savior.  Yet I recognize that this is the real issue for you.  You are seeking to develop some doctrinal system wherein all babies begin in this world as spiritually innocent before God, being neither under sin's mastery to begin nor "dead in trespasses and sins" to begin. [Are you saying here that they are part of the elect before having faith? Not quite sure one your point here. Perhaps if you could clarify your view on how King David's child, not yet having faith, was able to go to heaven?]  

1.  Technically, all believers are considered "part of the elect" before the moment in time wherein their faith occurred, since God our heavenly Father hath chosen us in Christ "before the foundation of the world." (See Ephesians 1:4)  However, that predestination/election occurred in accord with God's foreknowledge of our faith in time. (See Romans 8:29)  Therefore, our predestination/election, although occurring before time, is through our faith at the given time of our heart-faith in Christ for salvation.

2.  According to Galatians 3:22 the truth that all are "under sin" is the very foundation which requires that "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."  As such, for any and all who are "under sin," the only way of salvation is through faith in Christ the Savior.  So then, what about King David's child, about whom David indicated that he would one day go to be with him in a relational manner, thus requiring that they be in the same location?  I do indeed accept that this relational reference by David indicates that the child did indeed acquire everlasting life with God.  Now, since God's Word only reveals one possible way for a human individual to acquire everlasting life with God, that is -- through faith in Christ, I believe that somewhere along the process of the child's existence unto the moment wherein God made His final judgment, the child did indeed believe.  However, any further detail of answer that I might give concerning the matter would require for me to enter into the realm of human conjecture (which I am willing to do, as long as everyone recognizes that I would only be conjecturing). 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, wretched said:

We are slaves to sin and cannot in any way do anything about it, after the fall God purposed for us to be helpless, without free will and to unable avoid unrighteousness and condemnation.

Indeed, from our very conception we come into this world as the bond-servants/slaves under sin's mastery, and we have no spiritually strength to do anything whereby to free ourselves from that bondage.  Indeed, from our very conception we come into this world with a spirit that is already "dead in trespasses and sins," such that in our free will we every choose in accord with our very spiritual nature as the children of disobedience.  Indeed, from our very conception we come into this world already unrighteous and already condemned, which makes it impossible for us to avoid these conditions apart from salvation through faith in Christ.

2 hours ago, wretched said:

IMO the later above is the T in tulip, just as much as Irresistible Grace is the I and neither are Bible doctrine. It is the difference between God being in total control and we have zero free will or accountability or God knowing all and simply stating the facts of His foreknowledge within His Word..... Can there be accountability without free will? At the Great White Throne all will be judged based on the 66 books of God's Word according to their works. Why would that be if no one had any choice to sin or not to sin

. . . .

IMO we are accountable and cannot even blame Adam for our condition. If we were not accountable then God would not be just and we all know that justice was invented by God with Him being the Standard of justice for all to see, learn and emulate. Romans indicates quite clearly that we all carry personal accountability from Adam to us this day.

Arguing from your human definition and understand of free will and accountability is not really relevant in determining true Biblical doctrine.  Only what God's Word actually states concerning a matter serves as the relevant source for determining true Biblical doctrine.

2 hours ago, wretched said:

At the Great White Throne all will be judged based on the 66 books of God's Word according to their works. Why would that be if no one had any choice to sin or not to sin.

This is not wholly accurate.  At the Great White Throne judgment, as prophesied in Revelation 20:22-15, two sets of books will be opened.  The first set is the record of all the works of every human individual.  The second set is the Lamb's Book of Life.  Furthermore, according to Revelation 20:15 it is not the record of all the works that will determine if an individual is cast into the lake of fire, but is the record of the Lamb's Book of Life that will determine such, whether that individual's name is written therein, or not.  On the other hand, those who are cast into the lake of fire because their names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life shall indeed receive greater or lesser judgment in accord with the record of their works, as per the first set of books. (See Revelation 20:12)

2 hours ago, wretched said:

The simple facts that mankind lost its Spiritual life along with the curse of sin on the world itself and satan's dominion over it certainly stacks the odds against anyone trying to choose righteousness.

Mankind did not simply lose his "spiritual life."  Rather, mankind is spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," "having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart," being spiritually the children of disobedience and of the devil, walking "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air," "fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind," and thereby also being spiritually "the children of wrath," condemned already before God and having the wrath of God already abiding upon them. (See Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19; John 3:18, 36)

2 hours ago, wretched said:

Am I saying any human could earn salvation through their own righteousness - Absolutely not

Amen.  Furthermore, if an individual did in fact live in perfect righteousness, without any disobedience whatsoever, that individual would not have earned his salvation, specifically because that individual would never even had needed salvation.  Such an individual would not need the imputed righteousness of Christ, for that individual would possess his own perfect righteousness.  Such an individual would not need regeneration, for that individual would never have been spiritually dead.  Such an individual not need forgiveness, cleansing, or justification by God's grace; for he would have no need of forgiveness or cleansing, and he could be justified on the grounds of his own perfectly obedient righteousness.  So then, does God's Word grant that any such case is a spiritual possibility. NO; for it is written that "there is none righteous, no, not one."

2 hours ago, wretched said:

Am I saying however, that we all choose to sin....God did not cause it to be so - Absolutely

Am I saying it is possible for a human to live sinlessly in this present world - Absolutely not. But the reason is not because God made it impossible for us. The reason is because God says no one has nor ever will based on His omniscience. Hence the need of The Redeemer.

No, the reason that no human individual lives in perfect righteousness is because every human individual is already bound under sin's mastery and is already "dead in trespasses and sins." 

2 hours ago, wretched said:

Also, I am not saying that anyone in this thread is directly claiming that God made us hell bound sinners on purpose but it (perhaps inadvertently) and indirectly reads that way.

So then, has the Lord God formed each and every human individual since Adam and Eve in the spiritual condition, wherein they are already bound under sin's mastery and already spiritually dead in sins?  Yes, through the sinfulness of Adam, the Lord God has indeed created each and every human individual as a child of Adam's unrighteousness, such that each and every human individual begins as a spiritual child of disobedience and of the devil.  Yet the Lord God has also graciously made a way of salvation for each and every one of those human individuals, if they will receive it through faith.

[John Young]

10 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  Technically, all believers are considered "part of the elect" before the moment in time wherein their faith occurred, since God our heavenly Father hath chosen us in Christ "before the foundation of the world." (See Ephesians 1:4)  However, that predestination/election occurred in accord with God's foreknowledge of our faith in time. (See Romans 8:29)  Therefore, our predestination/election, although occurring before time, is through our faith at the given time of our heart-faith in Christ for salvation.

2.  According to Galatians 3:22 the truth that all are "under sin" is the very foundation which requires that "the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."  As such, for any and all who are "under sin," the only way of salvation is through faith in Christ the Savior.  So then, what about King David's child, about whom David indicated that he would one day go to be with him in a relational manner, thus requiring that they be in the same location?  I do indeed accept that this relational reference by David indicates that the child did indeed acquire everlasting life with God.  Now, since God's Word only reveals one possible way for a human individual to acquire everlasting life with God, that is -- through faith in Christ, I believe that somewhere along the process of the child's existence unto the moment wherein God made His final judgment, the child did indeed believe.  However, any further detail of answer that I might give concerning the matter would require for me to enter into the realm of human conjecture (which I am willing to do, as long as everyone recognizes that I would only be conjecturing). 

I do appreciate your replies so far and I am considering them in response to the OP. The elect doctrine does change things up a bit and I would be interested in hearing more even if it may be conjecture. 

So are you saying that because God knew King David's child would eventually receive Him in faith, if the child had been permitted to live, then that child was already part of the elect and therefor was saved? (How could David know such a thing?) So in the converse if a child died in infancy that if he would have rejected faith, If God allowed him to live, then that child is not part of the elect and therefor goes to hell? Or Is it that all children who die before an opportunity to believe are already part of the elect?

Edited June 15, 2016 by John Young

[John Young]

17 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Bro. John, I respectfully suggest that your ideas and arguments in this thread are a complete rejection of the doctrine of the total depravity of man. This doctrine and Scriptural teaching is at the root of why we need a Saviour. The need of a Saviour is paramount simply because we are born with a "sin nature" and cannot choose to do good outside of the provision of Christ as our sacrifice and our acceptance of His provision.  

While I may not agree with he Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity, I am not in any way rejecting the scriptures or the need for the Saviour. The primary focus is on the soul. I am simply proposing that the soul needs to live life in order to develop one way or the other. At birth the soul is in a body under the curse and bondage of Adam's sin and therefor will tend toward sin and the fleshly appetites but that the soul is not sinful or wicked until the soul actually decides to rebel against the law of God written within itself. The spirit, while giving life to the child is not yet quickened by Christ to help the soul live spiritually nor is the body freed from sin until the redemption even if the soul and spirit are saved at the second birth.

Edited June 15, 2016 by John Young

[wretched]

20 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, from our very conception we come into this world as the bond-servants/slaves under sin's mastery, and we have no spiritually strength to do anything whereby to free ourselves from that bondage.  Indeed, from our very conception we come into this world with a spirit that is already "dead in trespasses and sins," such that in our free will we every choose in accord with our very spiritual nature as the children of disobedience.  Indeed, from our very conception we come into this world already unrighteous and already condemned, which makes it impossible for us to avoid these conditions apart from salvation through faith in Christ.

Agreed in fact by God's omniscience but not God's doing, do you agree?

Arguing from your human definition and understand of free will and accountability is not really relevant in determining true Biblical doctrine.  Only what God's Word actually states concerning a matter serves as the relevant source for determining true Biblical doctrine.

Agreed but my argument is your interpretation and not God's Word.

This is not wholly accurate.  At the Great White Throne judgment, as prophesied in Revelation 20:22-15, two sets of books will be opened.  The first set is the record of all the works of every human individual.  The second set is the Lamb's Book of Life.  Furthermore, according to Revelation 20:15 it is not the record of all the works that will determine if an individual is cast into the lake of fire, but is the record of the Lamb's Book of Life that will determine such, whether that individual's name is written therein, or not.  On the other hand, those who are cast into the lake of fire because their names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life shall indeed receive greater or lesser judgment in accord with the record of their works, as per the first set of books. (See Revelation 20:12)

This is your own speculation. The set of Books will be and can only be the Books of God's Word in which all those you died without faith will be judged by. What other "books" could it mean when all we have to learn by and measure works from is God's Word? The second set is but one Book which is the Book of Life.

Mankind did not simply lose his "spiritual life."  Rather, mankind is spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," "having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart," being spiritually the children of disobedience and of the devil, walking "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air," "fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind," and thereby also being spiritually "the children of wrath," condemned already before God and having the wrath of God already abiding upon them. (See Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19; John 3:18, 36)

Your Scriptural reference is a perfect demonstration of what I am talking about Bro Scott. Nowhere does the fault lie in God's plan for mankind. It lies on every human.

Amen.  Furthermore, if an individual did in fact live in perfect righteousness, without any disobedience whatsoever, that individual would not have earned his salvation, specifically because that individual would never even had needed salvation.  Such an individual would not need the imputed righteousness of Christ, for that individual would possess his own perfect righteousness.  Such an individual would not need regeneration, for that individual would never have been spiritually dead.  Such an individual not need forgiveness, cleansing, or justification by God's grace; for he would have no need of forgiveness or cleansing, and he could be justified on the grounds of his own perfectly obedient righteousness.  So then, does God's Word grant that any such case is a spiritual possibility. NO; for it is written that "there is none righteous, no, not one."

Accurate but only from the standpoint of man's responsibility. God did not design it so but made the provision to save all who by faith believe Him and follow Him.

No, the reason that no human individual lives in perfect righteousness is because every human individual is already bound under sin's mastery and is already "dead in trespasses and sins." 

What I posted is at the same time just as accurate brother. Nowhere does God's Word say He designed it so but He certainly knew it would be this way from the foundation of the world. There can be no provision for excuse on the part of any sinner. We are all without excuse for our own sins.

So then, has the Lord God formed each and every human individual since Adam and Eve in the spiritual condition, wherein they are already bound under sin's mastery and already spiritually dead in sins?  Yes, through the sinfulness of Adam, the Lord God has indeed created each and every human individual as a child of Adam's unrighteousness, such that each and every human individual begins as a spiritual child of disobedience and of the devil.  Yet the Lord God has also graciously made a way of salvation for each and every one of those human individuals, if they will receive it through faith.

No my friend. Adam was directly created 3/3 while all afterwards were procreated from Adam/Eve 2/3 and not a direct creation in sin from God which would certainly leave them with excuse. Yet all were and are still without excuse and being unable to obtain righteousness must receive the Savior. God knows us all one by one but He did not create us directly. This is simply how it happened and God certainly knew it would, He did not orchestrate it this way which is the foundation of false Calvinism and is the polar opposite of free will.

After all, God did form Adam by hand and without sin but Adam sinned anyway. The same goes for Lucifer. There always has been free will and always will be whether lost or saved. Physical body or Glorified. Spiritually alive or dead. Free will is the central theme of His Word and goes hand in hand with faith = righteousness. This is one theme from cover to cover of God's Word.

Once again, I am in no way stating that anyone could live in this world without sin, earning their own salvation, it cannot be done as God's foreknowledge in His Word tells us. So speculating on the possibility of it is moot since we are fully enlightened that it has not and will not occur.

What I am contending is your interpretation that God created us in sin therefore making Him the author of sin in us. God states the facts from His omniscience in His Word, He never one time states that He authored sin in us that way.

We are probably arguing semantics anyway.

 

[No Nicolaitans]

I've been following this thread from afar...and I'm actually perplexed by it. If I'm wrong, please forgive me. However, it seems that those in opposition to John Young's premise are insinuating that babies and young children who die are lost. I've noticed that no one has seemed to come right out and say it, but that's what I gather from what has transpired so far. Let's just lay it out plain...am I correct to assume that those who disagree with John Young's premise believe that babies and young children who die will spend eternity in the lake of fire? They are doomed? They will suffer eternal torment?

Do I believe that Christ is the only way of salvation? Yes...most definitely. 

Do I believe that one must accept Christ in order to be saved? Yes...most definitely.

Do I believe that babies are born with a sin nature? Yes...most definitely.

Do I believe that babies and young children who die are lost? No...most definitely not.

Do I agree with John Young? I don't know; I'm having a hard time following some of his line of thinking. However, I do agree with his premise.

From what I've read from those in opposition to Mr. Young, babies and young children are lost, because they didn't accept Christ.  So, with that in mind, may I ask...what must one do to be saved? I won't cover that, because we all know. Now, if a baby or young child dies and is lost because they didn't accept Christ, then tell me HOW can a baby or young child do what is necessary for salvation? HOW? They are doomed because they haven't accepted Christ, yet how can they accept Christ? They aren't cognizant enough to know or understand the gospel...or their need of it. They aren't even cognizant enough to know that God exists through the witness of nature/creation. Unlike heathen nations who have the witness of nature and are a law unto themselves (Romans 2:14) and are therefore guilty, how can a baby or young child comprehend or understand sin or salvation?

How can a baby or young child repent? They can't comprehend it.

How can a baby or young child believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? How? They can't comprehend one iota of it.

Yet, God will punish them despite the fact that they have no possible way of cognizance regarding sin, repentance, salvation, Jesus Christ, the gospel, etc.?

Do I believe that babies and young children are innocent; therefore, if they should die, they will go to heaven? Yes...most definitely. Why? I believe that, because that's what the Bible teaches. Do I believe in an "age of accountability"? Yes, but I prefer to refer to it as the Bible does...when a child knows to do what's right and reject evil.

Please...PLEASE...consider EACH of the following...

Innocent: Example 1

Ecclesiastes 6:3
If a man beget an hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.

Solomon said that to be aborted was better than to live a long life, have many children, and yet be sad with no burial. So...it's better to go to the lake of fire than to be sad with no burial?

Innocent: Example 2

Jeremiah 19:4-5
4   Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
5   They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Who were those that Jeremiah referred to as "the blood of innocents"? They were their children...whom God proclaimed as innocent...cleansed, cleared, and acquitted.

Innocent: Example 3

Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Why did God punish Israel for not entering the promised land? Why were all of those 20 years old and above going to die in the wilderness? It was because of UNBELIEF! Yet, here Moses clearly says that God would bring their children into the land. Why? Because though the parents didn't believe God, the children had "no knowledge between good and evil". They were innocent.

Innocent: Example 4

Jonah 4:11 (KJV)
And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Jonah wanted Nineveh to suffer...he wanted it destroyed! Yet, God was appealing to Jonah? Why should he destroy 120,000 people who couldn't understand the difference between their right hand and left hand? Was this the entire population of Nineveh? I guess that's possible, except that doesn't make sense. God was going to destroy Nineveh because of how grievous their sin was...yet, they didn't know their right hand from their left? Nineveh was so big that it took three days to walk from one end to the other. When Jonah preached to them, he only went one day's journey into the city. The city was...HUGE! I find it hard to believe that in a city that size, the total population was only 120,000 people. So to whom is God referring? It must be the babies and children (and possibly the mentally retarded). Who else can't discern between their right hand and left hand?

Innocent: Example 5

Isaiah 7:14-16 (KJV)
14   Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
15   Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
16   For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Here we have one of the most beloved prophecies of the Lord Jesus Christ...yet many ignore the fact that even the Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God...God in the flesh...the same yesterday, today, and forever...the first and the last...the Alpha and Omega...who was, is, and ever shalll be...ALMIGHTY GOD...that as a child, even he had to reach an age; in which, he knew the difference between good and evil.

Innocent: Example 6

Job 3:11-19 (KJV)
11   Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
12   Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13   For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14   With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
15   Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
16   Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
17   There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
18   There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
19   The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Job thought it would have been better to have died when he came out of the belly...at birth. Why? Because "there" the wicked cease from troubling. "There", the weary be at rest. "There", the prisoners rest together without the voice of the oppressor, and "there" is freedom.

Sounds a lot like heaven.

 

[Ronda]

On 6/8/2016 at 6:05 AM, John Young said:

I'm sorry but there is no verse that says children are wicked from the time of conception.

Romans 9:10-13
10 "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;"
11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"
12 "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger."
13 "As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

AS Jacob and Esau were both in Rebecca's womb, not having even been born yet, neither of them having yet committed any sin themselves, God proclaimed that he HATED Esau!
So I respectfully dispute your assertion that "there is no verse that says children are wicked from the time of conception" and I also refute that there are no verses which are not inclusive of one "in the womb" as Romans 9:10-13 clearly details.
And so this also refutes (quote john young about huans are sinners because they decide to sin -later posting

Also Jer 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."
Here we see that God KNEW Jeremiah BEFORE he was even in the womb! So this even goes FURTHER back before the womb!

On 6/9/2016 at 6:51 PM, Ukulelemike said:

How could Paul say he was alive ONCE, but then the commandment came, sin REVIVED, (it wasn't gone, just inactive, not counted), and he died.  There is no 'age of accountability' in this, I believe-rather there is a time of accountability, a time that one has a clear enough understanding of right and wrong, the coming of the commandment, as it were, and with each I suppose it comes at a different time.

Romans 7:8-9; 8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead." 9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."

I concur wholeheartedly with Mike, and I will go on to say that I believe children before this age (or condition) is met, are saved. PLEASE let me qualify that statement: ALL? No, (although for any years I did believe that to be the case), BUT after years of study (and especially in light of the verses regarding Esau in Romans 9, the verse regarding Jeremiah (1:5), and the implications of Romans 7) I have a different conclusion now.
While I do not believe in Calvinism's "irresistable election of grace" theory, I do believe that God knows WHO will or who won't accept Christ in their lifetime. 
I believe that He knows the heart of all. BUT (and this is a very important "but) FREE WILL is given to all mankind. Even though God knows who will/won't accept/believe on Christ for salvation, He does not FORCE this choice upon anyone (John 3:18 sums up the decision ALL mankind has to make).
ALL are given the FREE WILL choice, and all are accountable as to whether they believed upon the only begotten son, or whether they did NOT believe upon the only begotten son for salvation.

This may SEEM to be problematic when it comes to babies and children prior to coming to the knowledge and true understanding required to make the free will choice (as Mike called it the "time of accountability", since it occurs at different ages from person to person) of whether to believe/accept or whether to deny/reject Christ alone for salvation.
HOWEVER, as he (Mike) brought forth, I also believe that Romans 7:9 shows us that sin was "revived"  (proving that it had to have existed within the person PRIOR to the KNOWLEDGE of the commandments as well as the KNOWLEDGE of what is good and what is evil)
So while that baby or child has not yet reached the "time" of reason (true understanding of sin, right/wrong) ... I believe that God knows what the baby or child WOULD have chose (of their own free will) in regard to accepting/believing or rejecting/denying Christ. 
This could be considered conjecture... and I admit there is no specific verse to PROVE this exactly, But I do believe that Romans 9:10-13, and Jer. 1:5 are both highly supportive of this since God foreknew that Esau would be wicked, and God HATED (HATED... a very strong word) Esau when he was yet in Rebecca's womb.
God knowing ahead of time what type of heart Esau had, that Esau was evil prior to even being BORN!
I did USED to believe all babies and children got an automatic "pass" I NOW (now: for the last year or so, since we all hopefully grow in grace and knowledge of God's word and are given understanding and comprehension not all at once, but throughout our walk with the Lord during our entire Christian lives, and as the Lord gives us through the Holy SPirit's leading and guiding into all truth) believe that babies and children's hearts are known of God PRIOR to being born (as God showed of Esau) and that God already knows what that baby or child would have chosen (of their own free will) whether or not they would have accepted/believed or rejected/denied Christ had they lived to the "time of accountability". 
There is no way that WE (as mere humans) could hazard to guess WHICH babies or children would or would not accept Christ... Some might contend that only babes and children of believers would be saved, BUT I don't think that would have to be true... there are many (adult) believers whose parents (sadly) did not believe, and so I don't think (IMO) that the parents being saved would HAVE to be a prerequisite. GOD (being all knowing) is the only one who TRULY knows the hearts and minds of ALL (even those unborn, yet in the womb... and according to Jer. 1:5, even PRIOR to conception!!!) Only God truly knows which ones, but I believe there ARE unborn and young children who ARE certainly saved up until the "time  of accountability" at which point they have to make the same decision all of mankind has to make during the age of grace (John 3:18). And I further believe there are unborn children who also will be saved as well. Both groups (if the child should die prior to the "time of accountability") COULD be saved, the ONLY determining factor being that God knows their hearts and minds prior to them even being conceived! (According to Jer. 1:5).

Maranatha! And God bless as you desire to please and serve Him!

[John Young]

12 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Do I agree with John Young? I don't know; I'm having a hard time following some of his line of thinking. However, I do agree with his premise.

I'm not even sure I agree with John Young! haha! Like you I'm struggling with the details and trying to answer and formulate my understanding of the issue from scripture as well. So some minor things may change and develop as I interact with those who have studied my OP and are giving me biblical feedback.  That said I do think the premise has merit and at the end of the study I hopefully will have a better understanding of how it all works together. 

Edited June 16, 2016 by John Young