Clarence Larkin - Revelation

[HappyChristian]

Sigh. Here I go again. I don't get on here much lately because I'm very busy teaching my nieces and a couple of other young ladies who have been bullied unmercifully at their "schools." And I come on here and have to read threads like this.

First of all, this thread is in the book/movie review forum. That means, for those who don't seem to understand it, that it is to REVIEW a specific book or movie. Hence, the OP began review of a SPECIFIC book. But a few posters decided that it was ok to bring all kinds of thoughts into it - much of it presented in a derisive nature, even after claiming that would stop.

I get that not everyone is going to agree with everyone else, but this is nonsense. I don't agree with Larkin on everything. But he is a good reference to have. Now, because he is incorrect in some areas does not automatically follow that he will be incorrect in other areas. Were that the case, there are some who have commented on this very thread whom we would have to ignore because they, too, are wrong in some areas. Areas of doctrine.

Am I always right on doctrine? Well, of course I am!  At least, to my  own mind. And I've reached that conclusion because of scripture. So you're wrong if you disagree with me. Now..,

That was a bit of sarcasm. And yet it is the idea of many. Problem is, we all err in ways. Even when we try to stick completely to scripture. Because, like it or not, at times we apply our own thoughts and ideas to what is written. And, whether we want to admit it or not, we ARE influenced by others. So what we say is not always original either with us or even scripture.

I guess what I'm trying to say is STOP.IT.  Now, this thread that was SUPPOSED to be a review of a particular book is now closed. 

[Alan]

Brethren,

I want to thank HappyChristian for enabling me to re-upload the charts in this thread.

Except for the one chart on the October 17, 2015 posting, I was able to upload all of the other charts. I do hope that the charts are a blessing to all of you.

Alan

[JohnBaptistHenry@yahoo.com]

On 10/1/2015 at 9:52 AM, Alan said:

The 24 Elders – Revelation 4:4

Larkin brings out conclusive scriptural proof that the 24 elders are made up of 12 Old Testament and 12 New Testament redeemed men.[3] This is further proof of the rapture of the church before (or pre) the 7-year tribulation period commences in Revelation 6:1

-- [3] Larkin, Clarence. The Book of Revelation. 1919. Glenside, PA: Clarence Larkin Estate, n.d., Page 38

 

Bro. Alan, I don't have Larkin's book on Revelation, but I have heard this teaching before, concerning 12 OT and 12 NT saints in Revelation 4.  I do believe Revelation 4 is the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10-11; 1 Cor. 3:11-15).  However, if I understand the teaching correctly, that it represents OT saints also, it does not ring true to me.  Here's why:

Hebrews 11:40:  "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Hebrews 12:22-24:  "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,  23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,  24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Who are the "us" and "they" of Hebrews 11:40?  Hebrews 11 speaks strictly of OT saints until the last verse, v. 40, where it uses the word "us" meaning NT saints.  It appears that "the general assembly" and "church of the firstborn" of Hebrews 12 are all of the saved of this Church Age, "the general assembly" being those outside of NT churches.  These have been "made perfect," that is, they have received their glorified bodies; whereas "the spirits of just men made perfect" represent OT saints who will not be raised until after the last week of Daniel (cf. Rev. 6:9-11):

Daniel 12:11-13:  "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.  13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

Job 19:25-27:  "For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:  26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:  27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."

 

[Alan]

Brother JohnBaptistHenry,

Good posting. This thread  was unlocked per my request in order to re-upload the Larkin charts that were not appearing properly. I am not sure that the moderators intend to keep this thread open past Sunday evening until I can upload the final chart ( I am currently in a different city than my English library and cannot obtain the final chart until late Sunday evening).

So, at this point, I think it is best to hold any further discussion on Larkin, Revelation 4:4 and who the 24 elders represent, in abeyance until the moderators either re-lock the thread or keep it open.

Either way, since the question of who the 24 elders are in Revelation 4:4 is a question in itself, if you would like to open up a study in your own thread concerning it than that may be a viable solution at this moment.

I do appreciate your reading the thread carefully and am also glad that it appears we agree that Revelation chapter 4 is when the Judgement Seat of Christ occurs. The Judgment Seat of Christ occurs in the air at the appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ at His coming (Revelation 22:12 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) and immediately the church is ushered in the presence of the throne of God, Revelation 4:1). 

Alan 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Alan
grammer Nov. 2, 2016 stike-out & clarification in blue

[Alan]

Brethren,

Thank you for your patience in waiting for me to re-upload the final chart.

By way of reminding ourselves, this thread is simply a review of the book by Clarence Larkin, "The Book of Revelation." It is not a debate on the subjects contained therein. I am presenting this review as a review of the book itself as a reference book. In my opinion it is an excellent resource for the understanding of the prophecies of the scriptures that are fulfilled in the Book of Revelation. The charts, in my estimation, help the reader understand the prophecies that cover several thousand years, from the prophecy to the fulfullment, in an easy to understood format.

The thread will be kept open for the time being.

I would like to limit the discussion on the book itself and what Larkin says, or why he puts a particular verse in a particular chart. I do not intend to stray on other subjects that can be better handled in another thread (which may be hard to accomplish). If a topic tends to deviate from the focus of the review, I, or a moderator, will suggest that the topic in question be asked in the, "End Times / Bible Prophecy," thread.

Thank you.

Regards,

Alan

[Genevanpreacher]

On 10/22/2016 at 4:44 AM, Alan said:

I do appreciate your reading the thread carefully and am also glad that it appears we agree that Revelation chapter 4 is when the Judgement Seat of Christ occurs.

Alan 

I have read chapter 4, 5 & 6 and still haven't seen any evidence of the Judgement Seat of Christ Alan.

As it reads, it was just to show 'who' was able to open the book to show John what was gonna happen.

Thanks.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[Alan]

On ‎2016‎年‎11‎月‎6‎日 at 11:44 AM, Genevanpreacher said:

I have read chapter 4, 5 & 6 and still haven't seen any evidence of the Judgement Seat of Christ Alan.

As it reads, it was just to show 'who' was able to open the book to show John what was gonna happen.

Thanks.

I am not sure why you included Revelation chapter 7 6 in your comments, either way, your statement is incorrect.

The main emphasis in Revelation 4 is the throne of God and the immediate scences in heaven the  raptrured church will see and the main emphasis in Revelation chapter 5 is indeed the opening of the "book" by the Lamb. The church is there to throw our earned crowns at the feet of the Lord  to show our supreme devotion to the Lord Jesus and the unworthiness of our work.

I provided a little more detail concerning The Judgment Seat of Christ in the Revelation chapter 19-22 Study. Here is the link:

Alan

Edited November 7, 2016 by Alan
strike-out spelling

[Genevanpreacher]

2 hours ago, Alan said:

I am not sure why you included Revelation chapter 7 in your comments, either way, your statement is incorrect. a*

The main emphasis in Revelation 4 is the throne of God and the immediate scences in heaven the  raptrured church will see and the main emphasis in Revelation chapter 5 is indeed the opening of the "book" by the Lamb. The church is there to throw our earned crowns at the feet of the Lord  to show our supreme devotion to the Lord Jesus and the unworthiness of our work.

I provided a little more detail concerning The Judgement Seat of Christ in the Revelation chapter 19-22 Study. Here is the link:

Alan

a) Assuming you didn't mean 7 - but I read chapters 4-6 to make a sweep of the chapters to make sure there were details 'in context' that I didn't miss. If this were the Judgement Seat, as you state, why does it not say it directly? And why do you assume, and teach that the crown throwing has anything to do with the saints? And where is the Judging? 

I know you have probably taught all this stuff before Alan - and I don't expect an answer that is 'easy' - but to teach this as the Judgement Seat of Christ and not expect the text itself to say it, makes me question the whole teaching. Just imagine what an inexperienced child of God thinks when they see you say something like -  "that Revelation chapter 4 is when the Judgement Seat of Christ occurs." And it doesn't say it in the text.

Using chapter 4 of Revelation, can you quote to us words stating any judgement of saints here? Now, if you have to quote examples from other books of the Bible to show it - that's not proving that this is the Judgement Seat of Christ.

Nor is it the rapture of the church. Since the church is not mentioned nor is it implied in the words of the text of Revelation 4.

It is John being taken up in spirit to the throne of God to witness a show from God about the future.

Application of the text. No mixed message. No church mentioned. Why the secrecy if it is the Judgement Seat of Christ. 

These are legitimate questions Alan - not sent in a bad attitude nor out of hatred for you or anyone who teaches this.

I just want clarity for those who are reading and absorbing it all without question - after all you are a man of God - and they have zero reason to doubt a man of God.

I, from experience, do have reason.

As for your link? You shouldn't have to take us to chapter 19 to explain chapter 4. Answering the questions above would be good at this juncture in your teaching.

Thanks.

[Genevanpreacher]

Sorry Alan, I keep forgetting this thread is a review about the book.

Please do not feel obligated to respond here.

Thanks.

[Alan]

I will respond, but very quickly.

I never said that Revelation chapter 4 and 5 is the Judgment Seat. Read my post carefully. Furthermore, I stated, twice, that the empahsis is on the throne of God and the Lord Jesus as the Lamb. Read my  post carefully. The saints are throwing their crowns before the Lord Jesus is what the scriptures are emphasizing concerning the church. These crowns were earned rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.  

[Genevanpreacher]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

I will respond, but very quickly.

I never said that Revelation chapter 4 and 5 is the Judgment Seat. Read my post carefully. Furthermore, I stated, twice, that the empahsis is on the throne of God and the Lord Jesus as the Lamb. Read my  post carefully. The saints are throwing their crowns before the Lord Jesus is what the scriptures are emphasizing concerning the church. These crowns were earned rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ.  

Huh? That's not what you said? - look below please.

On 10/22/2016 at 4:44 AM, Alan said:

Brother JohnBaptistHenry,

Good posting. This thread  was unlocked per my request in order to re-upload the Larkin charts that were not appearing properly. I am not sure that the moderators intend to keep this thread open past Sunday evening until I can upload the final chart ( I am currently in a different city than my English library and cannot obtain the final chart until late Sunday evening).

So, at this point, I think it is best to hold any further discussion on Larkin, Revelation 4:4 and who the 24 elders represent, in abeyance until the moderators either re-lock the thread or keep it open.

Either way, since the question of who the 24 elders are in Revelation 4:4 is a question in itself, if you would like to open up a study in your own thread concerning it than that may be a viable solution at this moment.

I do appreciate your reading the thread carefully and am also glad that it appears we agree that Revelation chapter 4 is when the Judgement Seat of Christ occurs.

Alan 

You are confusing me Alan.

I see you are confused also - because you did say the same things here as shown above. 

I shall desist anymore questions here.

I shall start another thread if I think it of value later. Maybe you can answer me then.

Thanks.

[Alan]

Revelation 22:12, "Behold I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to giver every man according as his work shall be."

1 Thessalonians 4:11-18 tells us when the Lord comes in the clouds in the air the dead saints will rise and meet them in the air.

The Lord Jesus is bringing the rewards, "the Judgment Seat of Christ," with Him when He comes in the air. We, the church, with our rewards, are, as John the Apostle was in Revelation 4:1, in the presence of the throne of God.

I do hope this clarifys the two posts.

[Alan]

John Young,

Thank you for your support during this trying time.

Alan

[Alan]

Wretched,

Thank  you for your suppport.

Alan

[wretched]

4 hours ago, Alan said:

Wretched,

Thank  you for your support.

Alan

Don't go thanking me yet Bro. Allan. I may not like what you post tomorrow  (kidding).

I have enjoyed your studies and think you hit the nail on the head in them. I recommend you disregard any and all objections from those without eyes to see nor ears to hear.