Atheists and delusion

[Potatochip]

Delusion:   an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder.   A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.   

I will pick out to site the topic:  Atheists and delusion.  The phrase in the definition sited above.  "A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary"

Superior evidence need I say more.  Israel all of the geographic data in the Bible.  The existence of all the peoples listed in the Bible.  The archaeological evidence for all the cities listed in the Bible.  The diaspora,  The holocaust.  Invention of the atom bomb near the same time. Nuclear proliferation a reality now  The return of Israel and the focus of what we see in the news day in and day out.  No ones really citing South America in the news.  The area of trouble is usually in one area the Middle east.  Now I would say normally so what?  However its been that way for thousands of years.  

Conspiracy theorists tend to be delusional.  Lets look at it again ---- A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary

One example might be 9/11 was a false flag operation.   Despite the fact that virtually no other government on the planet has accused the United States of a false flag operation.  Some people carry on with that kind of thinking.

Sin is delusion:   Psychiatry is the worlds way of dealing with the results of sin.  After all God gives us the power of a sound mind.   For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind

Another words the mystery of iniquity, sin.  Will take you places that aren't in touch with reality.  The deeper in you get into sin.  The more irrational the mind gets.  God even tells Israel that they will go insane - madness, blindness.  If they forsake Him and don't follow what he told them to do.  

So the Atheist.  Their underlying thoughts more than likely are delusional.  When exposed.  You will find that everything that is going on in regards to religion today.  Yes I did say religion and the history of.  Is to them one big conspiracy perpetrated by man in many of their minds, not all but many.   Their disconnect is the sin in their lives.  Delving and getting their answers from the delusion in their minds that is the result of the insanity,  sin produces.  I don't waste time arguing with Atheists or other unsaved people. Because if you use logic well all your going to get is irrational illogical answers that are derived from the result of sin.  That includes not believing in Jesus.  Which believe it or not is sin.  The Gospel saves.  That's what I utilize word for word.  Or try anyway.  

However I think that the Christian also needs to be careful not to get involved in sin.  It just might turn one's world upside down.      For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.  We shouldn't be all that startled at all that's going on in a fallen world.  How to avoid that in my opinion.  Is to stick with the Bible.  Not fad.  Not reaching outside of what we know is true (we are all diligently seeking God).   We need to avoid sin.  Sin which quite frankly is crazyland, darkness, has its own mystery.  The mystery of iniquity.  Which if your trying to solve anything which you feel is tangible by investigating the mystery of iniquity.  More than likely all your going to find is more craziness. 

 

Edited June 17, 2015 by Potatochip

[Covenanter]

"Conspiracy theorists tend to be delusional.  Lets look at it again ---- A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary

One example might be 9/11 was a false flag operation.   Despite the fact that virtually no other government on the planet has accused the United States of a false flag operation.  Some people carry on with that kind of thinking."

Surely the whole purpose of government is to delude the people into believing the delusions they want us to believe. 

Anyone who believes that an old man living in a cave in Afghanistan, armed with a mobile phone & laptop computer could organise the hijack of 4 airliners by 19 half-trained pilots armed with box cutters, who then were able to fly with extreme accuracy, at high speed, without being intercepted by the USAF, into buildings designed to withstand aircraft impact, is delusional. 

Amazingly, several of those who were identified on the passenger lists as responsible for the hijacking are alive & well, & still flying with Saudi Airlines.

Amazing too that the new owner of the buildings & his family were out of the office that day. 

More amazing is the spontaneous free fall collapse of the third building, without being hit by a plane.

And who could be deluded into thinking it might not have been a hijacked plane that hit the Pentagon, in such a way that wings & tailplane disappeared through the hole in the building ......

 

Also, some people are deluded into thinking that the Israeli attack on US Liberty was "mistaken identity."

 

[Potatochip]

Hi Covenanter,

I'm not trying to argue here or turn this into a debate.   I'd have to take issue with that description of government.  Governments maintain order.  They don't provoke disorder.  Thats why you have police.  People are apprehended and put in jail quickly when they kill.  Riots are put down swiftly.  Economic chaos could cause more disorder.  People not getting food could cause food riots and killings.  A group could provoke more disorder.  Leading to anarchy, chaos.  Anarchists, people that want the current government gone.  Who have no official investigation powers.  Who don't have access to the crime scene.  Virtually no resources or experience to investigate a crime scene not to mention international resources to investigate a crime.  Could simply "wing it".  Come up with their own conclusions with limited resources for whatever reason.   

See this is what I am talking about.  We have a free and open press.  Wide open internet.  You can say what you want.  So none of the media with all of their resources and contacts.  Ever found anything remotely resembling a false flag.  You could pick out a tidbit of course.  The entire government.  Senate, Congress, FBI, CIA, Military.  POTUS the entire executive branch.  Virtually no government on earth accused the US of a false flag after all the war that was incurred because of the incident.  So these governments are official sources.  They protect your water food, family, house.  They provide fire safety, medical, animal control, weather, disaster etc.   Thats what government does.  

So given my suppositions above.  Thats one very huge conspiracy with almost all governments on the earth.  Who do have resources to know better.  Including the entire US government.  All cooperating in the conspiracy not to mention the press.  I'll have to say thats a little bit to much to overlook.  God tells us what to think in regards to government in the Bible.  I believe in strict adherence to what was said in the NT about that.  If you don't see God in authority.  Jesus even told Pilate.  You would have no authority if not given from above.  There was a conspiracy back then.  But it wasn't a government conspiracy.  They wanted Jesus dead.  They kept trying and found a way.  Given the choice between Barabbas and Jesus.  They chose to set the insurrectionist free.  The one wanting to overthrow the government.  Because they didn't like what was established over them.  

Mark 15:7   And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection. 

Jesus knew the authority that God had given Pilate.  Even though he knew what that could lead to.  Barabbas didn't.  Barabbas said I don't like whats been established over him along with his friends.  He didn't like the God given authority in place. All the people thought Barabbas was a great guy.  Which were talking about the Messiah.  God incarnate saying you have the authority Pilate.  Pilate was Roman government.  

I see a lot of Christian anarchy these days.  lol.  So rebel.  Tear it down.  Just remember who's authority your fighting.  Not talking about government here,  however I just don't think political victory over a bunch of sinners is much of a victory.  Salvation on the other hand is what we should pursue.    No where in the entire NT.  Are we told to participate in what many Christians are participating in today.  I love the authority God has given.  I actually understand it.   

2 Peter 2  10-11

But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Potatochip

[John81]

I'm not going into specific "conspiracy theories" at this time, but considering Scripture tells us the devil is continually conspiring against us all, and the lost do much of his bidding, and the lost run the governments, major corporations, media networks and outlets, education, and most other matters, why would Christians not recognize there is much going on behind the scenes that is deceptive and evil?

This doesn't mean every so-called conspiracy theory is valid, but it does mean we shouldn't dismiss them all just because the mainstream media and government leaders hang the label of "conspiracy theory" upon something.

If we want, we can look back over the last several decades and see many things which have come to light which are contrary to the approved and long held to story we had previously been fed. Prior to these matters becoming perfectly clear, those who had tried to expose them previously were called "conspiracy theorists", out of the mainstream, fools and much worse.

As the saying goes, the victor writes the history and they write it to serve their own purposes, not historical reality.

Our collective failure to face the reality that most in power are working deals which are not for our good has been much to their benefit. In America most conservative type Christians vote Republican and then complain because the Republicans don't do what they wanted them to do; but then they vote for them again. A current example to consider is why, after running on a platform of the need to stop Obama from having or taking any more power to himself and preventing him from doing more harm, is the Republican leadership in congress fighting feverishly to grant Obama the unconstitutional power to "fast track" a Pacific trade deal?

Most major events in history aren't as clear cut or as black and white as those in power try to portray them.

Does anyone remember VP Cheney saying in a news interview that American fighters were escorting the remaining hijacked jet and had permission to fire their missiles if necessary? Then, after that jet was said to have crashed in Pennsylvania the government denied any American fighters had been near, the Cheney interview was no longer seen on TV and no questions about it were permitted? This despite several eyewitness accounts of seeing American fighters and of several reports of seeing missiles fired and impacting the jet. What's the real story?

How about the Katyn Massacre which the Americans, British and Soviets blamed on Nazi Germany even tho all three knew it was the communist Soviets which had committed that mass murder?

Lies and deceptions for the purposes of power and control are common throughout human history and not something reserved for use only by the "bad guys", but something every government and entity with power uses to their own ends.

[DennisD]

"Conspiracy theorists tend to be delusional.  Lets look at it again ---- A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary

One example might be 9/11 was a false flag operation.   Despite the fact that virtually no other government on the planet has accused the United States of a false flag operation.  Some people carry on with that kind of thinking."

Surely the whole purpose of government is to delude the people into believing the delusions they want us to believe. 

Anyone who believes that an old man living in a cave in Afghanistan, armed with a mobile phone & laptop computer could organise the hijack of 4 airliners by 19 half-trained pilots armed with box cutters, who then were able to fly with extreme accuracy, at high speed, without being intercepted by the USAF, into buildings designed to withstand aircraft impact, is delusional. 

Amazingly, several of those who were identified on the passenger lists as responsible for the hijacking are alive & well, & still flying with Saudi Airlines.

Amazing too that the new owner of the buildings & his family were out of the office that day. 

More amazing is the spontaneous free fall collapse of the third building, without being hit by a plane.

And who could be deluded into thinking it might not have been a hijacked plane that hit the Pentagon, in such a way that wings & tailplane disappeared through the hole in the building ......

 

Also, some people are deluded into thinking that the Israeli attack on US Liberty was "mistaken identity."

 

​You know Bin Laden wasn't killed/captured in a cave right?  You know he had almost unlimited resources when it comes to money correct?  Hmm.

You know the twin towers fell because of fire/structural issues correct?  When metal heats it expands, then cools and shrinks, and so on and so forth.  I am a volunteer firefighter and this is basic knowledge in the fire service.  The Twin towers did withstand the impact from aircraft...the weakness was the elevator shaft and expanding/shrinking of metal.  It doesn't take much time to research this objectively.

NORAD didn't track flights in the United States before 9/11..hence, why would USAF jets be scrambled?  Or why would they be scrambled in time since there was no tracking of the flights...

I've seen the stories about those identified on passenger lists are still alive and well.  There is absolutely no proof of this and it's speculation.  There is not one photo or video of said persons.

110 storys of rubble falls on a 47 story building and you are surprised it didn't collapse from a plane?  How about the several thousands of tons of rubble that was on it...of course it collapsed!  Or, from all the fire that spread to the surrounding buildings...

I know people personally that were at the Pentagon, they saw the plane.  But, I suppose maybe all those regular people are just liars or have decided to join the government in the most impossible conspiracy known to man.  Who can be deluded into this?  Oh, I don't know, maybe the thousands of people that saw the plane circle and crash into the Pentagon...

 

Edited June 18, 2015 by DennisD
misspell

[Potatochip]

I have to work lol.  However really quick.  The other one  is Holocaust denial.  Documentation in three presidential libraries.  Online.  All the governments of Europe recognize the Holocaust and send delegations on Holocaust memorial day.  That includes the subject country.  The US and Russia.  A trial where they were found guilty in criminal manner and many hung.   All kinds of testimony not only from Jewish people.  But people from the above mentioned countries. Eisenhauer toured one camp extensively.  Then sent in government people and the press to record it all.  So did England with Churchill.  Another huge conspiracy theory involving all the governments of Europe.  The US and UK.  Hitler had a legitimate government.  Recognized.  Until he and many of his government crossed the line and became international criminals.  He killed himself I guess because he knew what was coming.  Again many in his government were hung as criminals.   

[Alimantado]

The real delusion of course, is that the twin towers ever existed. Simply by photoshopping every picture of New York on the net (surprise, surprise--Adobe is a US company) and doctoring history books, the government was able to convince a gullible populace of the buildings' existence and subsequent destruction in order to provoke a war with the middle east and set in motion a chain of events that ultimately led to Qatar 'winning' the bid to host the 2022 World Cup.

[DennisD]

The real delusion of course, is that the twin towers ever existed. Simply by photoshopping every picture of New York on the net (surprise, surprise--Adobe is a US company) and doctoring history books, the government was able to convince a gullible populace of the buildings' existence and subsequent destruction in order to provoke a war with the middle east and set in motion a chain of events that ultimately led to Qatar 'winning' the bid to host the 2022 World Cup.

​

[Potatochip]

I'm pretty sure they existed.  lol.  I flew into NYC in 1975.  I was going on a skiing trip.  Just north of NYC.  I went right by them.  Unless it was a hologram lol. They looked pretty real.   I was going to a town where I used to live to get together with some friends.  To go skiing.  I was friends with a guy who's dad headed one of the unions that put the electrical work in the WTC I believe.  It was still under construction when I left there.   I remember it because the WTC was finally finished at the time I was going skiing.  I love talking with all of you lol.  I really have to get to work. 

Edited June 18, 2015 by Potatochip

[Covenanter]

".... provoke a war in the Middle East ...."

We all know about the "weapons of mass destruction" that Saddam Hussein was supposed to possess;  the "suicide" of David Kelly who failed to find the WMDs; the FBI support for bin Laden in his fight against the Russians in Afghanistan .... but does anyone remember the "Arab Spring?" 

Who & what are our soldiers dying for? Who gains from all this deception? 

I was chatting with a Muslim at tennis club on Tuesday - nice guy. I won against him on Saturday, but lost on Tuesday. "These aren't Muslims - they are evil men using religion for power."

[Potatochip]

There is no proof of any of that either Covenanter.  None.  Once again.  Virtually no government on earth has accused the US of a false flag operation.  You have reached a conclusion.  Conclusions aren't evidence.  No official government has forwarded evidence that I know of.  To the contrary.  Governments bring people to trial.  Not people.  Governments have justice systems.  Not ordinary people.  Since no one has been put on trial for all of this.  It's a very safe assumption in my opinion.  There was nothing to try.  It's interesting in the OT how God brought in some cases a nation against another.  The result of the invasion of Iraq and the why I don't know.  I pray thy Kingdom come.  Thy will be done and get out of the way.  

[DennisD]

Well, if you just go off of news sources or only one or two news sources I should say...you would not have seen that WMD's were actually found in Iraq.  Nothing of serious consequence though.  But, recently, a stockpile of what is possibly old Iraqi WMD's was found by ISIS in Syria.  I will note though, I don't know of how much proof there is to prove they came from Iraq.  Could be another conspiracy theory...

If you're inclined to believe stuff like that, it might be interesting to read about though.

[ThePilgrim]

Conspiracy theorists tend to be delusional.  Lets look at it again ---- A delusion is a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary

Conspiracy Theorist:  A tag that is placed on someone else when a person does not have the time or inclination to look into the facts of the matter himself but has chosen to accept the word of so-called government experts.  That is my definition and I don't have to be a Conspiracy Theorist to come up with it, although I have been labeled as one.

Now the one tagging a person may have no knowledge of the matter in question other than what he read in the paper or heard or saw on the evening news, but the tagger considers himself qualified to label a person with a different opinion with a belittling tag in order to raise himself up in his own eyes.  People do not have to agree on everything in this world but they should not belittle one another because they cannot agree.  Just one man's opinion.

Edited June 18, 2015 by ThePilgrim

[DaveW]

It's funny you know - Iraq had fortified labs with the equipment to produce chemical weapons, had previously used chemical weapons, and there was aerial surveillance showing heavy vehicles at those sites in the weeks before the soldiers went in, but the heavy vehicles were nowhere to be seen when they got there on the ground.

I wonder what was in them and where they went?

And I can tell you (It is my profession) that the trucks were no regular transports - they were special trailers, and the site itself was 'interesting' in its layout and construction.

There was definitely something going on. Of course you can't tell what precisely from aerial photos, but not ordinary stuff.

But the truth is not something everyone pays attention to.

[Invicta]

It's funny you know - Iraq had fortified labs with the equipment to produce chemical weapons, had previously used chemical weapons, and there was aerial surveillance showing heavy vehicles at those sites in the weeks before the soldiers went in, but the heavy vehicles were nowhere to be seen when they got there on the ground.

I wonder what was in them and where they went?

And I can tell you (It is my profession) that the trucks were no regular transports - they were special trailers, and the site itself was 'interesting' in its layout and construction.

There was definitely something going on. Of course you can't tell what precisely from aerial photos, but not ordinary stuff.

But the truth is not something everyone pays attention to.

​

Most countries have the ability to produce chemical weapons including the UK ad US,  Does that mean anyone has the right to attack us.