Holding wages overnight

[Potatochip]

Good advice. I do have one problem with almost all Church's.  They do not teach the Whole council of God.  You do not hold the laborers wages overnight.  That's in Deuteronomy and in James.   That's never brought up.  In fact in these Church's have laborers they hold wages back on for weeks.  That's crushing the poor. God hears their cry's.  The Bible says it. 

You want to know why church's have so much trouble.  Gods over all.  The powers are ordained of Him. 

I watch so many "Happy" Christians walk into places like Chick Fil A.  Just so glad to meet one another.  How about the people behind the counter?  Restaurant work is hard labor.  I don't like that's what you agreed to talk.  The Bible condemns in the strongest of terms people that hold a laborers wages overnight. 

Preach the Word of God.  The whole council of God.  I'm a preacher also a street preacher.  KJV only.  Bible is the Word of God.  The streets are filled with homeless people.  Try getting up from there.  No advantage to begin with.  However holding wages.  When one day's wages could buy a mans meal, new clothes, shelter, transport. 

No wonder people don't work with their hands and pursue a covetous life at the behest of people that put them in bondage.  Trying to pile up cash for any disaster.  By holding back their wages for weeks.  You say possibly "No big deal".  God says different for really good purpose.   You need to pray and consider why he did that.

Your not going change the world.  It's a fallen world.  However the Word of God is powerful.  You need to rightfully divide the Word.  Change the way you do things in your church with your laborers.  Preach that Word to your congregation.  Take the side of the poor and needy for once.  Not by giving.  I know you give.  That's not enough.  You need to preach the Whole council of God.  No matter who it offends.  End senseless Church division.  By preaching Scripture.  You try to do the right thing working with your hands.  Sometimes its not big money.  However wearing down someone by making them a bondservant day and night waiting weeks for their wages is cruel and hard.

[heartstrings]

 I know a little about it.

I run a small business which serves mostly other businesses. I couldn't tell you how many times I have worked like mad, for a much larger company, only to have them hold my money for a month or surprise me with a "net 45 days" policy....So they got to use my property for 45 days for free, usually thousands of dollars worth, after I was diligent enough to produce it and get it to them on time. If it hadn't been for credit cards, I really would have been in a fix.

[Salyan]

Um... I don't know about that, Potatochip. The way our modern society is structured, most workers expect to receive reimbursement for their work

biweekly or semimonthly. It is expected and planned for. I think maybe the modern equivalent of that instruction would be that wages not be withheld

for a month or longer - holding the money longer than culturally expected. (Hmm... I think I just made a cultural argument for interpretation of the Bible. )

Of course, if you're dealing with day laborers - which most churches don't - that could be different.

 

Edited March 26, 2015 by Salyan

[ThePilgrim]

(Hmm... I think I just made a cultural argument for interpretation of the Bible. )

 

 

​Yes indeed, I think you did.  But then everybody seems to do it . . . . don't we?

[Potatochip]

I'm a little bit different.  lol.  I street preach.  In my town there are a lot of Christians.  Bible believing, saved and can't loose your salvation people.  I deal with them all the time.  Humble folks.  Unemployed in some cases.  Families out on the street. Sometimes. 

I am no social worker.  Never will be.  I believe that the KJV is the Word of God.  In fact I don't like this for myself.  Holding wages.  It puts me in a position of having to rake in a lot of cash.  For me and whoevers got me.  I've hung steel, built retaining walls, laid asphalt.  Some of the toughest jobs you will ever find.  I don't mind it. I'm way past a young age even. Teaching me how to budget my money.  Does not replace what God said about holding wages.  I want to preach the Word.  Taking my time away and making it someone else's.   Week in and week out doesn't fit what I was called to do.  12 hour work days are ok with me too. Its a problem.  

Not asking here to start a political movement.  Just the Whole council of God to the congregations.   That way the poor will hear.  The oppressed among us.  It may change things.  However that Word resonates with God.  Doesn't come back void.  Avoids the confusion that we are of this world.   That we are not on the side of sin.  Most of us have experienced this kind of oppression and sin.  Some still under it.  It makes life really hard.

I don't take the side of oppression and sin.  God did that for a purpose.  See.  He said it I didn't.  You have a disagreement about what God clearly states.  Take it up with Him.

In fact it says in James God will hear their cry's.  The powers that are.  Are ordained of God.  I don't know.  lol.  Everything that's going on.  I believe in the Whole council of God.  Not just part of it.  Just to suit someone else's idea of the way they think things should be.    

Leviticus 19:13 - Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob [him]: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.

James 5:4 - Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

Now there is an additional verse that is about the poor.  Wages are due the next day.  Day labor is well easier said that done.  Once again restaurant work is hard labor.  lol.  Try it sometime.  Not to many millionaires in there either.

[ThePilgrim]

Been there.  Done that.  I agree so many of us tend to just let things pass and say: "aw well what can I do about it."  It seems like when we talk about such things though, we are just called fanatics at best or communists at worst.  Kinda' like screamin' into the wind. . . . no one seems to hear.  Just shut our ears and go on with living. 

[Ukulelemike]

Everything about modern culture and society is set up in such a way that its virtually impossible to pay people daily in a majority of jobs. Now, I'm not saying its right, just saying that its how it is and good luck trying to change it back. We know that society would get worse and worse, because wicked men are waxing worse and worse. A lot of what the Bible forbade in the Old testament is not done anymore, anywhere. But also remember, it was written FOR Israel, not for everyone, everywhere. Like the rest of the law of Moses.  Is it a good principle? Of course it is, but its not a good society we live in, not a godly society, so we should not expect it to run like God demanded of Israel.  I suppose if a church has the ability to have paid staff, they could pay daily if they chose-but even there, when you are dependent upon the money coming in one day, maybe two, per week, even then you need to work the pay according to when the money comes in.

The OT biblical principle is based upon people who, as was said above, generally worked as day labour. It was to make clear that, whatever agreement was made by the one hiring, would be made good according to the agreement. If he hired them to be paid that day, they were to be paid that day; if he hired them with the understanding that they would be paid weekly, then he was to pay them weekly, not keep it extra time over the agreement.

[1Timothy115]

I'm retired Navy, we were paid every two weeks. Then, it was changed to twice each month (there is a difference). However, I knew how I would be paid when I entered the Navy. It was a learning curve to manage money to allow for the entire period. I see nothing wrong with a man agreeing to be paid for his work at intervals. 

When I entered the civilian work community after military service. I went to work for a company which would pay me twice a month. If the payment method is known in advance then, there is no fault. Now even though the agreement was for the day this parable verse seems to apply; Matthew 20:13 what you agree to is what should occur. Also, there is no way to comply with payment daily if the work requires travel away from the master (boss, company, or business). The boss cannot be expected to follow a laborer on a 3 day journey and pay them each day.

However, I see that there are people who have a very REAL need for pay on a daily basis. I have compassion for this need, it's real, and people go hungry who do not have this need fulfilled. I don't understand how a man could hire individuals for a day's work and not expect them to be paid at the end of the day. Is there any way to inform the a boss of this need of daily pay? Should you both understand the expectation of work and pay?

P.S. The company I worked for had different rates of pay to material providers, generally based on association or relationship; net 30 and varying up to if I recall net 90. But, even those terms had to be specified and agreed by supplier and recipient.

[Potatochip]

Your right its not right. 

Now the government that may be a separate matter I don't know.  The military I don't know.  

Otherwise  I don't care if its not possible to pay everyday.  That's not my problem.  That's their problem lol.  If they hire me to solve it lol.  I'll try. 

I'm writing of this in this forum.  Because a whole lot of IFB believes in working with their hands.  They practice what they preach. Doers of the Word.  Including pastors that work a regular job.   

It's God that says that's fair.  I can think of some possible reasons He wants things that way.   I don't know.  Maybe possibly for me it might be.  Preaching could be done from city to city.  Working and preaching.  In an ideal world.  However fact is its a fallen world. The result wanted won't or may not be achieved in enormity.   Thus James telling of what is going to happen to people that do such things. 

I was street preaching last week when a Quaker girl came up to me by the way.  She said the SBC split from the other Baptist Church's over slavery.  Among other things.   Old as I am I never realized that.  She gave me some history on that.  I wondered.  You've got some pretty good Church's in my opinion.  Holding fast.  All the missionaries you have even in small congregation.  I'm trying to figure out which one of your Church's to go to.  Even before last week.  So my search Is on.... 

[wretched]

Perhaps some present day illustrations to whatever the point is here would help and much less embellishment. 

Who is it that you are referencing as being defrauded?

[Jim_Alaska]

Perhaps some present day illustrations to whatever the point is here would help and much less embellishment. 

Who is it that you are referencing as being defrauded?

​Good idea. I was lost with the start of the thread. It seemed like the OP (Potatochip) started out with a conversation already in progress. The very first paragraph is overly broad and possibly overly accusatory. How could you possibly know that almost all churches are guilty of delaying paying wages?

 

Potatochip, how would you know that "this is one problem with almost all churches"? It just seems like this post came from left field with no examples or illustrations for what is being said. It almost looks "anti church".

 

I am sorry if this reply seems argumentative, I don't mean it to be. These are just questions I had as I read the OP. I have to wonder why something like this is even a problem for the OP since he/she cannot possibly know the circumstances in every church.

[Potatochip]

​Good idea. I was lost with the start of the thread. It seemed like the OP (Potatochip) started out with a conversation already in progress. The very first paragraph is overly broad and possibly overly accusatory. How could you possibly know that almost all churches are guilty of delaying paying wages?

 

Potatochip, how would you know that "this is one problem with almost all churches"? It just seems like this post came from left field with no examples or illustrations for what is being said. It almost looks "anti church".

 

I am sorry if this reply seems argumentative, I don't mean it to be. These are just questions I had as I read the OP. I have to wonder why something like this is even a problem for the OP since he/she cannot possibly know the circumstances in every church.

It's widespread practice as far as I know.   I would be surprised to find out that any institution didn't hold wages overnight.  I've never heard of it.  Not for an employee anyway.  The question might be does anyone know of one that does pay at the end of the day.  I know illegals get paid that way.  Labor pools are gone.  As far as I know.  I don't know of any that ever were outside of a big city. 

I'm not accusing anyone of fraud.  The Word of God is.  I believe the Bible.  Utilizing someone's due.  By holding onto puts them in a position of having to do more than the labor they already performed.  I would guess keeping them on the string at someone else's terms. In order to get paid.  That's my best guess lol.  I don't know for sure.  But God said don't do it.  Many times.

[John81]

We can't expect lost folks running businesses to pay their workers daily just because there is reference to such in the Bible.

As mentioned above, it would be impractical and virtually impossible for most businesses to pay their workers daily. The main principle is to pay the workers when it was agreed upon they would be paid. In ancient days work and pay was a daily matter. Most labor was of the "day labor" sort, there wasn't much long term employment or working for big companies. Today when one is hired they know the pay schedule, weekly, every other week, etc. If the employee and employer agree to this system, and the employer pays his employees accordingly, then no one is being defrauded.

Back to the main point, we can choose to hire folks and pay them daily, but we can't expect the lost to do this.

[Jim_Alaska]

I am sorry, but I don't know of any churches that hold wages as you have described. Most of all I don't know of any that hire day laborers. Most people get paid by the week or month, is this what you have an issue with?

Perhaps if you included some Scriptures that show your clear meaning I could understand your stand better. Your big issue seems to be "holding wages overnight", I find no Scripture that either says this or forms this argument. I do understand the scriptures that say "the workman is worthy of his hire.

But  like John said, that if an agreement is made between employer and employee as to when they get paid, then no one is being defrauded. We can't expect unsaved employers to abide by biblical precepts.

[Potatochip]

We can't expect lost folks running businesses to pay their workers daily just because there is reference to such in the Bible.

As mentioned above, it would be impractical and virtually impossible for most businesses to pay their workers daily. The main principle is to pay the workers when it was agreed upon they would be paid. In ancient days work and pay was a daily matter. Most labor was of the "day labor" sort, there wasn't much long term employment or working for big companies. Today when one is hired they know the pay schedule, weekly, every other week, etc. If the employee and employer agree to this system, and the employer pays his employees accordingly, then no one is being defrauded.

Back to the main point, we can choose to hire folks and pay them daily, but we can't expect the lost to do this.

​I'll say it again.  That's not my problem.  It's theirs.  People that practice doing what God said don't do, - practice sin.  There problem is with what God said.  I'm pretty sure He doesn't care if It inconveniences someone or not. It's scripture.   

Like I say its a fallen world.  I don't expect much to change in regards to that verse or verses (its said many times).  But its always good to preach it.  Because some will hear and do the right thing.  Or at least know its sin.