Christmas Tree Or No?

[Jim_Alaska]

God gives us liberty, as long as it isn't used for licentiousness.  If a family chooses to celebrate the birth of Christ, that is their choice. If a family chooses not to celebrate the birth of Christ, that is also their choice.  Using a day that the world has set to do so is not sin.

 

With all due respect HC. I couldn't help but think that what you wrote here may just fall under the heading of "presumptuous sins" as opposed to "sins of ignorance." If we know that something is not right, unscriptural, or just plain Pagan and still persist in doing it anyway, this is "presumptuous sin." As Christians we should always endeavor to conform our life, teaching and beliefs to the truth of God's Word.    Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

 

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

God bless you as you serve Him HC.

[HappyChristian]

We do also celebrate His resurrection. :-D

One of the songs we like at both times is "Born to Die Upon Calvary."

I disagree, actually, that His birth was an incidental necessity (I know you weren't saying unimportant). His birth was prophesied, rejoiced in at the time, and the fact of His being born of a virgin vital to the efficacy of the work He would later do on the cross.

[HappyChristian]

With all due respect HC. I couldn't help but think that what you wrote here may just fall under the heading of "presumptuous sins" as opposed to "sins of ignorance." If we know that something is not right, unscriptural, or just plain Pagan and still persist in doing it anyway, this is "presumptuous sin." As Christians we should always endeavor to conform our life, teaching and beliefs to the truth of God's Word.    Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
 
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
 
God bless you as you serve Him HC.

If God has convicted someone of this -or even Iif one is doubtful -then they ought not do it or they would be sinning. However, if soneone has sought God on the matter and God has allowed, we cannot gainsay it. If no Christian should ever celebrate the burth if Christ simply because of paganism, then Thanksgiving is wrong, too. Oh, it started here as a way to thank God, no doubt. But, see, in other countries harvest fests were celebrated thankibg pagan deities...

[Jim_Alaska]

However, if soneone has sought God on the matter and God has allowed, we cannot gainsay it.

 

HC, once again with all due respect. I find it extremely difficult to reconcile the part you wrote above with the clear command to not be conformed to this world.

 

I also cannot fathom a situation  where God would "allow" His people to OBserve something that He said was an 'abomination." I can't repost all that I wrote before on the subject of Christmas, but there are elements of Christmas that are directly connected to the  worship of Baal. See the sermon I submitted recently for clarification of this connection.

 

 Jer 32:34 But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.
 35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

Please understand that I am in no way trying to be argumentative with you HC. I am just responding with my thoughts to what you wrote in a conversational manner. I feel no need to be right in this, or even to convince you of anything you may disagree with me on.

[HappyChristian]

Well, Jim, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. We don't celebrate Baal when we celebrate the birth of Christ any more than we celebrate Oden when we make plans to go to a party on Wednesday (Wodin's Day) night. Nor did my son worship Janus (the two-faced god) because he got married in January.

Nor, when we celebrate Thanksgiving, do we recognize or worship any of the pagan gods of the harvest. And when we celebrate Resurrection Day, we don't worship Ishtar.

I'm honestly not trying to be a smart aleck. I'm just pointing out that there are a lot more things that have pagan links - and that we associate with every day - than we might realize.

I do know of people who have changed the names of weekdays and months because they don't want their kids to associate in any way with paganism. Laudable goal, no doubt about it. But is that really practical? When no-one else in the world - even other Christians - would know what they are saying? Of course, practicality doesn't enter into OBedience. But...the basic thought is the same. If one doesn't celebrate the birth of Christ simply on the basis of a link to paganism, what does one call the days of the week or the months of the year? SWIM?

I'm not trying to change your mind - far from it. Well, heh - maybe we are trying to change each other's minds...that's usually the end goal of a conversation in which folk disagree, right? :-D.

If you feel celebrating the birth of Christ would be a presumptuous sin on your part, don't do it, by any means. Rest assured, though, that we glorify Christ and not Baal when we remember the birth of Christ.

[HappyChristian]

Double post

[Jim_Alaska]

Thanks for your thoughts on this subject LuAnne. As you said, we will just have to agree to disagree. 

[Alimantado]

I'm honestly not trying to be a smart aleck. I'm just pointing out that there are a lot more things that have pagan links - and that we associate with every day - than we might realize.

 

For what it's worth I think they are very salient illustrations of how inconsistently folk can apply the call not to be conformed. 

[Invicta]

Well, Jim, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. We don't celebrate Baal when we celebrate the birth of Christ any more than we celebrate Oden when we make plans to go to a party on Wednesday (Wodin's Day) night. Nor did my son worship Janus (the two-faced god) because he got married in January.

Nor, when we celebrate Thanksgiving, do we recognize or worship any of the pagan gods of the harvest. And when we celebrate Resurrection Day, we don't worship Ishtar.

I'm honestly not trying to be a smart aleck. I'm just pointing out that there are a lot more things that have pagan links - and that we associate with every day - than we might realize.

I do know of people who have changed the names of weekdays and months because they don't want their kids to associate in any way with paganism. Laudable goal, no doubt about it. But is that really practical? When no-one else in the world - even other Christians - would know what they are saying? Of course, practicality doesn't enter into OBedience. But...the basic thought is the same. If one doesn't celebrate the birth of Christ simply on the basis of a link to paganism, what does one call the days of the week or the months of the year? SWIM?

I'm not trying to change your mind - far from it. Well, heh - maybe we are trying to change each other's minds...that's usually the end goal of a conversation in which folk disagree, right? :-D.

If you feel celebrating the birth of Christ would be a presumptuous sin on your part, don't do it, by any means. Rest assured, though, that we glorify Christ and not Baal when we remember the birth of Christ.

 

With all due respect HC, I think you are wrong.

 

There is a great difference between the days of the week,the names of the months, compared with Christmas.  

 

The days and months are just names.  Christmas is a pagan festival renamed by the papacy to unite paganism with Christianity. There is barely a year goes by when one secular newspaper or another publishes an article saying that Christmas is really Saturnalia.  So if the world can see it, why can't Christians?

[HappyChristian]

That's fine, Invicta. But the names are from pagan gods...so named by people who believed in those gods. So there is the same pagan link. Those names were given because the gods were worshipped. Same/same, IMO.

If derivation is the reason to avoid, it must be applied equally. At least, that's what I've always been led to believe what consistency is.

I really have no prOBlem with you not celebrating Christ's birth. And, honestly, if my hubby were to tell me tonight that we no longer would, that would be fine. We aren't worshiping a day. We are worshiping a Saviour.

[John81]

Actually, one could argue there is more of a prOBlem with the days of the week than with Christmas. While Christmas is once a year, the days of the week were named after pagan gods so those gods would be honored and thought of continually, week after week, month after month, year after year, and now for several centuries.

[Ukulelemike]

For what it's worth I think they are very salient illustrations of how inconsistently folk can apply the call not to be conformed. 

Yes! I agree. I will no longer have church on Thor's Day, nor go to any that have it on Wodin's Day, either! No more services on the Sun Day. Uh-oh, what am I gonna do? Everything is based on pagan gods! Gotta hide my head under my pillow and stay home all day!

 

Yes, just being a wise guy. I actually agree. I guess we COULD go back to just calling the days 'first day, second day..." 

 

It IS odd, if you think about it, that Rome set our time, which is why Jesus was born about 4AD, yet most of the days of the week are named for Norse gods, Odin, Thor, Tyr, Freya, , then Saturn's Day, (roman), Sun Day, (could be any sun god), but who is Monday named for? Monster Day? Mondale? Maybe its the one safe day to do stuff? 

[Rebecca]

Monday = day of the moon, or moon's day

[ThePilgrim]

Yes! I agree. I will no longer have church on Thor's Day, nor go to any that have it on Wodin's Day, either! No more services on the Sun Day. Uh-oh, what am I gonna do? Everything is based on pagan gods! Gotta hide my head under my pillow and stay home all day!

 

Yes, just being a wise guy. I actually agree. I guess we COULD go back to just calling the days 'first day, second day..." 

 

It IS odd, if you think about it, that Rome set our time, which is why Jesus was born about 4AD, yet most of the days of the week are named for Norse gods, Odin, Thor, Tyr, Freya, , then Saturn's Day, (roman), Sun Day, (could be any sun god), but who is Monday named for? Monster Day? Mondale? Maybe its the one safe day to do stuff? 

I agree except I think we should go all the way and name them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 7.  Takes up a lot less space, and besides the space, ink for my printer is not cheap. 

[Rebecca]

I agree except I think we should go all the way and name them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 7.  Takes up a lot less space, and besides the space, ink for my printer is not cheap. 

How will we tell days 5 and 5 apart?