So Where Was Baptism For Salvation In The Ot?

[swathdiver]

I think you are wrong here.  The Catholics teach one VISIBLE church,which is  herself.  Non Catholics believe in one invisible church, of which all true believers belong, of which Jesus said: "I will build my church." Matthew 16:18.  He didn't say "I will build my churches."

 

We agree about what the Catholics teach and disagree about the existence of a universal, invisible, church.

[DaveW]

I think you are wrong here.  The Catholics teach one VISIBLE church,which is  herself.  Non Catholics believe in one invisible church, of which all true believers belong, of which Jesus said: "I will build my church." Matthew 16:18.  He didn't say "I will build my churches."

I will happily quote a verse here:

Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 

 

There is a way we can tell when something is meant literally and when something is meant figuratively.

 

Let me ask a quick question in that regard at this point: Are there literal gates of Hell trying to prevail over a literal particular church?

 

Or is it possible that Jesus was speaking figuratively, not about any particular literal church, but about the conceptual idea of His church, just as He was speaking figuratively of the forces of Hell - not literal gates?

 

If you do the study on the word "church" you find 77 references to that particular word, all of them in the NT and all but one of which is talking about the Churches that belong to Christ. (the other speaks of ISrael - which by the way was a local assembly at the Mount Sinai at that time.)

In the vast majority of those instances the word "Church" is defined by the words attached to it such as "the Church in..." or "the church at..." designating it as a particular church in a particular place.

 

Of these 76 verses, the overwhelming majority of which are CLEARLY speaking of an individual local church, there are only a very few which might be vague in their usage as to the local nature of the church.

There is not one verse that clearly speaks of a universal usage of the word church.

 

Then there is of course the 37 uses of the word "Churches" - right - make any of them fit a universal concept of the church...... How can you have a multiplicity of a single concept that is universal when it speaks of them in the plural? - A plurality of a universal entity?

So let's just ignore all 37 of those.

 

Of the 112 uses of the word church or churches the overwhelming majority of them are clearly speaking of individual local churches - those very few that are not clearly local church, are at best vague - not one of them is clearly speaking of a universal church.

 

If you think I am wrong I would be happy to read your explanations to the contrary.

[Covenanter]

 

I will happily quote a verse here:

Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 

 

There is a way we can tell when something is meant literally and when something is meant figuratively.

 

Let me ask a quick question in that regard at this point: Are there literal gates of Hell trying to prevail over a literal particular church?

 

Or is it possible that Jesus was speaking figuratively, not about any particular literal church, but about the conceptual idea of His church, just as He was speaking figuratively of the forces of Hell - not literal gates?

 

If you do the study on the word "church" you find 77 references to that particular word, all of them in the NT and all but one of which is talking about the Churches that belong to Christ. (the other speaks of ISrael - which by the way was a local assembly at the Mount Sinai at that time.)

In the vast majority of those instances the word "Church" is defined by the words attached to it such as "the Church in..." or "the church at..." designating it as a particular church in a particular place.

 

Of these 76 verses, the overwhelming majority of which are CLEARLY speaking of an individual local church, there are only a very few which might be vague in their usage as to the local nature of the church.

There is not one verse that clearly speaks of a universal usage of the word church.

 

Then there is of course the 37 uses of the word "Churches" - right - make any of them fit a universal concept of the church...... How can you have a multiplicity of a single concept that is universal when it speaks of them in the plural? - A plurality of a universal entity?

So let's just ignore all 37 of those.

 

Of the 112 uses of the word church or churches the overwhelming majority of them are clearly speaking of individual local churches - those very few that are not clearly local church, are at best vague - not one of them is clearly speaking of a universal church.

 

If you think I am wrong I would be happy to read your explanations to the contrary.

 

It is generally taught that "the church" comprises the "invisible church" of all the redeemed, dead, alive, and yet to be born, visible in local gatherings aka "churches." "My church" therefore means the invisible church that Jesus is building with living b 

 

The gates of hell is an expression not defined in Scripture, so we need to think. Satan's legions attacking Jesus' church, or the gates of hell CANNOT keep the captives will set free. The latter, I believe.

[candlelight]

Well, technically I'm wrong.  The catholics (the word catholic means universal) believe there is but one universal church.  Her offspring, in order to have some claim of authority, invented the idea of a universal, invisible, church.  

 I didn't mean to "like" your post, swath.  I meant to copy it.  I can't undo the "like" though.  Yes, it is technically wrong.  I am well aware of the "Universal "church."  And, yes her offspring (the harlots) as the Bible says, did invent the "universal, invisible, church."  The harlots are the Protestant denominations, although, there are many Protestants that are saved.  I thought it funny that Covenanter "liked" your post as he is a Protestant.  And he is a saved child of the God.   

[HappyChristian]

 

 

One misunderstood verse doesn't make a doctrine.  Maybe LuAnne will post all the scripture references?  

That was childish and absolutely uncalled for. But not unexpected. Knock it off, swath. Now.

[DaveW]

It is generally taught that "the church" comprises the "invisible church" of all the redeemed, dead, alive, and yet to be born, visible in local gatherings aka "churches." "My church" therefore means the invisible church that Jesus is building with living b 

 

The gates of hell is an expression not defined in Scripture, so we need to think. Satan's legions attacking Jesus' church, or the gates of hell CANNOT keep the captives will set free. The latter, I believe.

 

But "generally taught" just don't cut it - find me a clear passage in the Scripture that clearly teaches a universal understanding of the church.

 

There is no doubt that "church" refers to a local group - this can not be disputed.

 

But there is nowhere that uses the word "church" in a clearly universal way. Matthew 16:18 is at best unclear and the purpose of that passage is not to define the church anyway. 

 

We could easily list those verses that are ambiguous: (I don't consider all of these listed as doubtful).

Act_8:3  As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. 

There was only one church at this time - the local church at Jerusalem.

 

Act_11:26  And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. 

 

Assembled themselves - you don't "assemble" a universal church - the context indicates the church at Antioch specifically.

 

Act_12:1  Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth his hands to vex certain of the church. 

Which church? The Church at Jerusalem.

 

Act_12:5  Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him. 

Again, which church? Look at the timing of this - word would not have quickly reached any other church - the church at Jerusalem.

 

Act_14:27  And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. 

Gathered the church together...... universally??? I think not.

 

Act_15:3  And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 

The church at Jerusalem wanted a chat, and "brought them on their way".

 

Act 20:28  Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 

This is talking to the elders of the church at Ephesus.

 

Rom_16:23  Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus the chamberlain of the city saluteth you, and Quartus a brother. 

In a list of individual people - the "whole church" spoken of here is indicated to be the church at Corinth.

 

1Co 6:4  If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 

This is talking of the church at Corinth specifically.

 

1Co_10:32  Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 

This "might" be speaking generically, but tell me, how do you offend someone in the "universal church" - you offend people you meet, Even this indicates local application.

 

1Co_12:28  And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 

The previous verses speak of one member suffering with another member - you don't suffer with a believer you have never met or heard of. The context applies this clearly to the local church, not some universal church.

 

1 Cor 14 mentions the church in 7 verses, and the context plainly makes it local.

 

1Co_15:9  For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 

Where was Paul going when he was converted? away from Jerusalem - which church did he persecute? the church at Jerusalem - he is not talking of a "universal church" but specifically the church at Jerusalem.

 

Gal 1:13 is the same.

 

Ephesians is prOBably your best bet in this argument, but if you look at the letter, you find that it is written specifically to the saints at Ephesus, and none of the verses defines the church as universal, and every verse could easily apply to a local church. Some of them could possibly apply to a universal church, but considering there is no reason to make it apply universally, that understanding comes from a predisposition to apply it that way - my understanding of these passages as applying locally also comes from MY predisposition - but I have the weight of 100 verses to side with my predisposition.

Ephesians "Might" apply either way, but does not need to.

 

Likewise:

Col_1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 

 

This verse makes sense locally, and the other two uses of Church in Colossians are clearly local. - the only reason to make 1:18 universal is a predisposition to do so.

 

Heb_12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

 

This is another that is interesting, but not difficult really.

Let's have some context for it:

Heb 12:22  But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 

Heb 12:23  To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 

Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 

 

Ye are come to: Mount Sion, the heavenly Jerusalem, innumerable angels, general assembly and church of firstborn, God the judge of all,Spirits of just men made perfect, Jesus the mediator.

 

Where do we see all of this? Well now, eschatology suddenly makes a difference doesn't it?

We have not seen such a gathering, but when we do, this general assembly and church of the firstborn will be gathered into one place - a LOCAL assembly....

 

So of all the passages that mention "Church" they are either clearly local church, or MIGHT POSSIBLY be taken either way, depending on your predisposition.

 

There are NONE that are clearly universal, aside from the last, which is a local gathering of all believers into one place. It is only universal because it includes all believers - but they are gathered together in one place - a local gathering.

 

Do an experiment - read the "doubtful passages" from the perspective of never having heard of a universal church, and see if they still make sense.

 

We all have our preconceptions - but in this case, the local church only preconception fits with every passage, whilst the universal church only position is clearly unsupportable, and the dual nature position is not necessary.

 

 

 

I simply don't understand your explanation of the Gates of Hell - is it possible you have a typo in there, as it doesn't make any sense to me?????

(Not making fun, nor trying to be "smart" - maybe it is the way I am reading you, but the sentence doesn't make sense to me..... Sorry.)

[AVBibleBeliever]

I think you are wrong here.  The Catholics teach one VISIBLE church,which is  herself.  Non Catholics believe in one invisible church, of which all true believers belong, of which Jesus said: "I will build my church." Matthew 16:18.  He didn't say "I will build my churches."

Fist off, forgive me for spelling mistakes as I am using a glasses off program to improve my vision and it requires while I am using it not to where any glasses.  So I can't see the keybaord that well and my typing skills are a bit lacking.

 

So,

 

Which church would it be if Jesus has not gone to the cross yet?

 

So here is Jesus Building a church and it is pre-cross so what church was he building?

 

It is the church of the first born which is Israel also known as the church in the wilderness  This church is not currently being built.  What is being built today is the BODY OF CHRIST, which is called the Church.  Once the BODY OF CHRIST has been gathered into the clouds to Jesus, then dealing and building the church of the wilderness/the church of the first born will be taken up again under the Gospel of the kingdom.

 

Today, we are blessed not because we keep his commandments or do baptisms or repentance, but because of the work of Jesus Christ (this does not mean you will not get a blessing if your do, it just means you don't earn anything by works today).  under Law and the gospel of the Kingdom one must keep commandments and do works to get a blessing of God.

 

You can argue all you want, if you don't see that it is because you are not OBserving the text.

[HappyChristian]

 

You can argue all you want, if you don't see that it is because you are not OBserving the text.

I do believe we've been this route before, but since it seems that memories are short, let me remind you...STOP accusing people of not OBserving the text.  If you want to discuss, then discuss.  Browbeating by intimating or claiming that others don't read the Bible right is not godly and it is not going to continue.  

 

Should be enough said.

[LindaR]

What is the meaning of "one body" in Ephesians 4:4 and 1 Cor. 12:13?  Is the "one baptism in Ephesians 4:5 water baptism?  What about the baptism in 1 Cor. 12:13?

 

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

John the Baptist prophesied the "baptism of the Holy Ghost" and the "baptism with fire" (judgment) by Jesus Christ Himself in Matthew 3:11:

 

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

 

Jesus prophesied the "baptism of the Holy Ghost" in Acts 1:5:

 

Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

[282Mikado]

Today, we are blessed not because we keep his commandments or do baptisms or repentance, but because of the work of Jesus Christ (this does not mean you will not get a blessing if your do, it just means you don't earn anything by works today).  under Law and the gospel of the Kingdom one must keep commandments and do works to get a blessing of God.

 

Please review my post at >#33 and respond.

 

Thank you.

[swathdiver]

 I didn't mean to "like" your post, swath.  I meant to copy it.  I can't undo the "like" though.  Yes, it is technically wrong.  I am well aware of the "Universal "church."  

 

I know you know more about the Popery than me, I think that part was meant for someone else.  You can click a "Like This" again to unlike it; unless there's a time period to do so?

 

That was childish and absolutely uncalled for. But not unexpected. Knock it off, swath. Now.

 

 

You can argue all you want, if you don't see that it is because you are not OBserving the text.

 

[Covenanter]

..........

 

I simply don't understand your explanation of the Gates of Hell - is it possible you have a typo in there, as it doesn't make any sense to me?????

(Not making fun, nor trying to be "smart" - maybe it is the way I am reading you, but the sentence doesn't make sense to me..... Sorry.)

Sorry - typo -

The gates of hell is an expression not defined in Scripture, so we need to think. Satan's legions attacking Jesus' church, or the gates of hell CANNOT keep the captives JESUS will set free. The latter, I believe.

[swathdiver]

 

Which church would it be if Jesus has not gone to the cross yet?

 

So here is Jesus Building a church and it is pre-cross so what church was he building?

 

It is the church of the first born which is Israel also known as the church in the wilderness  

 

So by this twisting of scripture, the Great Commission was given to the apostles only and when they died was no more.  Nahh...

[Salyan]

 

First off, forgive me for spelling mistakes as I am using a glasses off program to improve my vision and it requires while I am using it not to where any glasses.  So I can't see the keybaord that well and my typing skills are a bit lacking.

 

Glasses off to improve vision? Wouldn't that force your eyes to work harder, thus straining them more? I went a while with an inadequate prescription and it made my eyes worse, not better. Wouldn't want to see that happen to you.

 

 

Today, we are blessed not because we keep his commandments or do baptisms or repentance, but because of the work of Jesus Christ (this does not mean you will not get a blessing if your do, it just means you don't earn anything by works today).  under Law and the gospel of the Kingdom one must keep commandments and do works to get a blessing of God.

 

 

 

 

This by itself I don't have a prOBlem with. In the OT we do see God promising to bless His people for OBedience, and punish them for disOBedience. Blessing does not equal salvation, however.

 

 

Faith, Works and God Grace have always been and always will be part of man's Salvation in every dispensation.  But how those three applied or worked out during those Economies, Time Periods or Ages were and are different.  Here are three divisions of dispensations and how Faith, Works and God's Grace were applied or worked out.

 

Pre-law, OT Law and preparation of Israel for the Kingdom (Genesis-Acts 7)

Faith + Works +God's Grace

From the OT to Acts 7 Men would believe the word of God preached to them and by faith they accepted that word repented and did what was required for the rest of their days of their life, this would later (upon Christ's finished work on the cross) get their name in the book of life, then at the judgement they would received the grace of God and are given eternal life.  But this does not mean God did not bless that man before his death because of his faith.  the fact that God still destroyed Nenivah(SP?) means the people did not continue in their repentance toward God.  But some of those Gentile men of Nenivah will be in heaven.

 

The Current Church Age (Acts 12-Philemon)

Faith + God's Grace = Works

From Acts 13 to the Gathering of the Church into the clouds to Jesus, men hear the word of God preached to them, then through their faith in that word (particularly that Christ Died for their sin debt) they received the Grace of God.  They are filled with the Holy Ghost and made part of Christ's body.  After words they begin, by God's help through His Holy Ghost, repenting of sin and doing good works.  There is no need for their names be written in the book of life (though they could be) because they are part of Christ's body and all judgement was taken care of on the Cross.  At the Gathering they will be judge for the things done while they were part of Christ's body and given reward for that which was good and no reward for that which was bad. Romans, 1Cor, 1Thess 4, 1 Timothy etc. . .

 

Tribulation until Christ's return to set up the Kingdom (Hebrews-Revelation 19)

Faith+Works=God's Grace

Once the Great tribulation starts men will hear the word of God, believe it in faith, do works like follow the law, overcome, endure to the end of the tribulation when Christ returns to set up the kingdom, help the Jews and if they were a Gentile they would get judged at the GWT and because their names would be written in the book of life (Rev 20) they would get the right to enter the New Jerusalem and eat of the tree of life and have eternal life (Rev 21).

 

Millennial Kingdom and after words for any natural man born after the new earth and heavens (Revelation 20-22)

Faith+works+God's Grace

While in the Millennial Kingdom men may see Christ on the throne their faith will be more on God's word than on Christ's work of the cross (though that will be known).  During the millennial Gentile nations will need to come to Jerusalem by faith in God's word for them to do so, present their gifts, OBlations and sacrifices (not for sin but as an act of worship) in doing so their nations will be blessed with rain and no disease.  If they don't do it they will not get rain and there will be diseases.  Those among those nations who keep to God's word to come with a heart of true worship and not of requirement will have their names in the book of life and their good works recorded. At the GWT judgement they will be judged and will be allowed to enter the New Jerusalem, drink of the river of life, eat from the tree of life, and get eternal life. Zac 14, Rev 20, 21

 

Faith, Works and Grace are God formula for salvation only during the Church Age can a man get God's grace by faith alone without the works of the Law, or of Baptism or Repentance.

 

 

 

 

People seem to like to bandy the word 'heresy' around here lately. Well, I'm going to join the club. Because this is heresy.  It is a false gospel.

Pre-Law:

Genesis 15:6 (hover over for the words)

Romans 4

Paul wrote a whole chapter refuting the false idea that Abraham - before the law - was justified by works.

 

Law:

Romans 4:13-17

Abraham's seed were of the law. Again, this chapter is written to explain that those before Christ came were justified by faith - not by the law.

Romans 3:19-31

Christ (and the dispensation of faith) did not destroy or make void the law - it established (completed) it. If salvation was previously by works, and was not by faith, then faith would have made void the law, in direct contradiction of this verse. Verse 21 is especially good - the righteousness of God by faith was witnessed by the law and the prophets. They bore witness to that - it was not a new thing after Christ.

Tribulation

Where do you get the stuff you posted above? I know of nothing in Scripture that says that men will come to God any other way than they did previously. This means Eph. 3:20 is still in effect. If you're trying to argue that 'they which endure to the end shall be saved' means that the believers have to somehow keep themselves true until the end of the tribulation to be saved, then how are the martyrs in Rev. 6:9-11 in heaven? Revelation 20 & 21 are not referring only to the people of the tribulation.

 

Millennium Kingdom

How can salvation in the Millennium be based on God's Word more than Christ on the Cross? 

John 12:32 - All men

Hebrews 9:22

1 Peter 1:18-20 - Redeemed by the blood of Christ. 

Christ's finished work on the cross must be efficacious for all - or it is not sufficient - and it is not finished.

 

We can differ on interpretations of eschatology - the Bible is a little fuzzy, so it is not heresy to disagree on what will happen there. There may also be room for variations in the understanding or divisions of dispensationalism - I understand it to be that God deals with people in different ways during the different dispensations (one God speaks via prophets, one via His Word, one directly. One the Holy Spirit is granted temporarily, one it is an indwelt constancy) -  but the gospel is always the same. It must always be the same.

"For it is by grace ye are saved, and that by faith, it is the gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast."

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

"Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever."

[DaveW]

Salyan,

 

You might want to add this passage to your already excellent explanation:

 

Heb 11

24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 

25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 

26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 

 

Note that it was Faith that caused Moses to acts in this way - just like it is Faith that makes us "do good works".

And note also what that faith was in - In CHRIST - not in God generally, but in Christ specifically - in the promised Messiah.

 

Moses had faith in Christ, and it caused him to serve God.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry - typo -

The gates of hell is an expression not defined in Scripture, so we need to think. Satan's legions attacking Jesus' church, or the gates of hell CANNOT keep the captives JESUS will set free. The latter, I believe.

 

OK thanks for clearing that up (and for not assuming I was being stupid or picky about it).