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    • By 1Timothy115 in Devotionals
         11
      Psalms 119:1-8                                         Sep. 5 - Oct. 2, 2019
      1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
      2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
      3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
      4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
      7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
      8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
      The following verse stood out to me...
      5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
      At first glance it seemed to me this person’s soul is poured out with intense desire to have God’s direction in keeping His Word.
      I made a small wood fire in our backyard for my granddaughter, Julia, since she would be staying overnight with us. My wife and Julia stayed outside at the fire for about half an hour. Then, I found myself alone to watch the fire die out on a particularly lovely evening. So I took my verse from above and began to repeat it for memorization. As I repeated the verse, I tried to contemplate the words and apply them to what I was seeing around me. 
      The moon and stars were out now peering through the scattered clouds above.
      [Genesis 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. Genesis 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, Genesis 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.]
      Thought 1         
      The moon has stayed his course since the day God created him, also the stars, obeying the statutes directed by God from the first day they were created. Can you imagine God’s direction to the Moon and stars, “moon you will have a path through the sky above the earth, stars you will occupy the firmament above the moon and be clearly visible in the cloudless night sky.”
      Then, the trees, grass, even the air we breathe obey the statues God gave them from the beginning. None of these creations have souls, none have hearts, none have intelligence, but they all observe God’s statutes, His instructions for their limited time on earth.
      Thought 2
      What if we were like the moon, stars, trees, grass, or the other creations which have no soul? We would be directed to keep God’s statutes without choosing to keep them. This is not the image of God, there would be no dominion over other creatures, or over the earth. We would not be capable of experiencing the joy and peace of learning the love of God
      Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
      Thought 3 (October 2, 2019)
      Is the psalmist pleading God to force God’s statutes to become the man’s ways? No, he is speaking of his own failure in keeping God’s statutes and his desire to keep them, very much like Paul in Romans 7:14-25.
      God doesn’t work through force to turn men from their ways that they would desire His statutes or desire God Himself. Men must reject (repent) put aside his own ways and voluntarily seek God and His statutes.

So Where Was Baptism For Salvation In The Ot?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

It doesn't matter whether it was Paul or not - the book is inspired of God.

 

You can not get away from the fact that it is relation to Christ specifically - not just to God.

The author of Hebrews relates Moses choice to the Christ.

No No NO the Author relates the choice to to suffer with the people "esteeming the Reproach of Christ" not to the knowing of Christ Jesus Personally.  That is where you are missing the point and the truth of the verse.  He Esteemed the "Reproach of Christ" not  he chose to "know him".  If you are not familiar with the typology here in reference it is that Moses was a type of Messiah/Christ and it is that reproach he bore BY his own faith not faith in Jesus, not knowledge of Jesus but being the Anointed of God to lead the people. 

 

Are you willing to esteem the reproach of Christ as Moses was?

 

You are a Christian which means literally you are an "Anointed one"  Christ means "Anointed" and -ian means One of Another.  Hence if more people understood that a True Christian is an "anointed one" and the implication of it. we too by faith would esteem the reproach of Christ better than the things of this world.  This is what is wrong with Christianity today change the word water it down and make it that we are just followers.  But we are much more than that. We are anointed ones because we have that anointing of the Holy Ghost.  Many just want to live in this world and its ways and be a follower and tell you "don't look at me but at Jesus"  When what this world needs is people to look at who are walking each day in the reproach of Christ and the power of the anointing that is imputed to us through out faith on his finished Work.  This is what Moses knew nothing about.  What he knew he was called of God to lead the people as an anointed of God, out of Egypt.  this is why he chose to suffer with Israel and esteemed the reproach of Christ better than the things of Egypt.  He chose to be what God called him to be the anointed of God to lead the people out and any time you chose to follow God you will be reproached.

 

As Paul said, Php 3:17-21 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.   (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)   For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 I'm still trying to get a proper response to the various times I have shown where baptism is NOT "a requirement under the Gospel of the Kingdom.

 

First I never implied that Baptism was for Salvation in the OT.

 

I stated that it was a requirement under the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was never preached in the OT, it was only preached by John the Bapt, Jesus, and the 12 & the 70(72) disciples in the NT and it was only preached to Israel.

.

 

why don't you show where it was not a requirement.

 

To these I replied:

 

It was not given as a requirement in Matthew 10, John 4, John 11 or for the thief on the cross as I showed and referenced multiple times. 

 

Later I replied with

 

Some other verses I came across during my morning study that pertain to this topic:

  

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

These verses clearly tell us that a Jews hope (and the hope of salvation) was not in the works of the law (such as circumcision) but was a condition of the HEART, IN THE SPIRIT. If your heart is not right, no amount of works will get you anywhere. There is nothing man could ever do. ALL the praise has always gone to God. 

 

Consider the account of the Pharisee and the publican in Luke 18.

 

Luke 18:10-14 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

The Pharisees had all the “i”s dotted and “t”s crossed, and still he was not justified, whereas the publican had a truly repentant heart and walked away justified over the Pharisee. No works, no baptism.

 

Now I want you to consider the following scripture:

 

Luke 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou,
Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said,
Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her,
Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying,
Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.

 

Notice what Jesus says to the woman: thy faith hath made thee whole

And to the ruler: believe only

 

That's all: faith and belief. No works. No baptism. You asked for me to show you where baptism wasn't a requirement and I've now show seven places, each of which show clearly that it is faith only that brings a person to salvation.

 

Notice when Christ is talking to the woman with the issue of blood He calls her daughter. There's a lot of good preaching in that one word: Daughter. When we are saved we become as the children of God, sons and daughters of the Most High. That's salvation. Once again, Jesus placed this woman in the family of God right there on the spot when He called her daughter.

 

Another thing that we can see here is that Jesus calls her daughter. Just another place in the Bible where we see that Jesus and God are one. As God the son He brought salvation to this woman. As God the father He accepts her into His family as a daughter. God the Father and God the Son shown to us in one word...Daughter.

Edited by 282Mikado
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

AVBB - reading through Romans this morning.
Ron 3
19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. note

 20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Witnessed by the law and prophets, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ.

Still seems like Paul think the OT guys knew about faith in Christ.

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AVBB - reading through Romans this morning.
Ron 3
19  Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. note

 20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

 23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Witnessed by the law and prophets, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ.

Still seems like Paul think the OT guys knew about faith in Christ.

Dude, Faith has always been a part of the cycle of salvation but how works and Grace are applied are different. 

 

How many times do I need to state that?

 

You cannot separate the three aspects of Salvation Faith/Works/Grace;  Faith/Grace/Works; Works/Faith/Grace;  there are different order of applications at different times/eras/economies/dispensations.

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Consider Romans 4. Paul stating what the scripture says about Old Testament Salvation.

 

Romans 4:1-5

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

What saith the scripture concerning Abraham's salvation? His faith is counted for righteousness. No works.

 

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

Romans 4:13-16

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all
,

 

Verse 14 states that if man ever (even in the OT as is being discussed here) relied at all on the law (works), then the very essence of faith is made void. You can not have salvation through faith and works, for any reliance on works cancels out true faith.

 

And you still haven't responded to the 7 examples I have given of those people saved during the time of Jesus' ministry without baptism even though you asked for those examples:

 

AVBibleBeliever, on 16 May 2014 - 10:41 AM, said: why don't you show where it was not a requirement.

 

Also, there is no example of John the Baptist being baptized. Was he saved? Was he ever baptized? If so, by whom?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Consider Romans 4. Paul stating what the scripture says about Old Testament Salvation.

 

Romans 4:1-5

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

What saith the scripture concerning Abraham's salvation? His faith is counted for righteousness. No works.

 

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

Romans 4:13-16

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all
,

 

Verse 14 states that if man ever (even in the OT as is being discussed here) relied at all on the law (works), then the very essence of faith is made void. You can not have salvation through faith and works, for any reliance on works cancels out true faith.

 

And you still haven't responded to the 7 examples I have given of those people saved during the time of Jesus' ministry without baptism even though you asked for those examples:

 

 

Also, there is no example of John the Baptist being baptized. Was he saved? Was he ever baptized? If so, by whom?

there is no scripture on Johns life in the wilderness.

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there is no scripture on Johns life in the wilderness.

 

I knew I shouldn't have put those rhetorical questions in there. How about answering to the scripture given and the seven examples of people living under the "gospel of the kingdom" that were saved without works or baptism (which YOU asked for). Why do you keep avoiding that?

Edited by 282Mikado
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I knew I shouldn't have put those rhetorical questions in there. How about answering to the scripture given and the seven examples of people living under the "gospel of the kingdom" that were saved without works or baptism (which YOU asked for). Why do you keep avoiding that?

I did and in them we see after belief they were baptized.  The work followed their belief int he words John preached, but none of them received the grace of God or the Holy Ghost at that moment it would be latter at the GWT Judgement or when they entered the kingdom after the Tribulation.  Under the gospel of the kingdom it is faith/belief in the words of John plus works, and they could get the setting aside of their sins if they got the baptism of the repentance for the remission of sins which was water baptism.  They did this as proof that they repented of their sins.  If they believed John's words but did not get baptized they did not get the remission of sins because they were not outwardly showing their repentance.  He rebuked the Pharisees because they wanted the outward show of repentance but he knew they needed to produce the works of repentance which proved there was indeed an inward change not just outward OBedience to being baptized.   

 

we know that John preached the kingdom gospel because Mt 3:1,2 ¶  In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,   And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

It seems the two went hand in hand believe the gospel of the Kingdom that it was at hand and repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.  Faith and works

 

Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
 Lu 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
 Lu 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

Peter too kept preaching the gospel of the kingdom in Act because he never mentions the forgiveness of sins only remission which was the original message he and the others were sent with in Matthew 10 which included that the kingdom was at hand.  The teachings of Christ in Matthew 5-7 were preparing ISRAEL for the Kingdom. But they never got it but will in the future.  Look closely at Acts 2 in context Peter Preaches Jesus as the killed, buried and resurrected son of David as fulfilled scriptures and proof or his Kingship and that he was the Christ of God (the Messiah) but not once does he preach the death burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins as Paul will teach later.  And later Philip teaches this to the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8. This as you identified correctly is the Gospel of the Kingdom/Kingdom Gospel and it required works to accompany faith or they would not get the grace.  In this case the setting aside of their sins until the day of Judgement when the book of life will reveal that they were written therein.

 Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

 

Edited by AVBibleBeliever
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

There was a period in time where anyone who opposed the state churches were wrongly called Anabaptist.

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There was a period in time where anyone who opposed the state churches were wrongly called Anabaptist.

I did at one time find an old RC document dated 1200AD that called them Baptist. I lost it in a HD crash and can't remember where I got it but I remember it.

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I did at one time find an old RC document dated 1200AD that called them Baptist. I lost it in a HD crash and can't remember where I got it but I remember it.

 

That was prOBably a quote of Mosheim, a Lutheran Historian, in Carrolls "Trail of Blood".

I remember that. They were quoting Catholic sources stating that if it weren't for them cutting off those Baptists for the past 1200 years, they would've out numbered all their protestants, or something or other?

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That was prOBably a quote of Mosheim, a Lutheran Historian, in Carrolls "Trail of Blood".

I remember that. They were quoting Catholic sources stating that if it weren't for them cutting off those Baptists for the past 1200 years, they would've out numbered all their protestants, or something or other?

no it was an actual RC document I had come across from an Vatican declassified documents that go back to 1000AD

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no it was an actual RC document I had come across from an Vatican declassified documents that go back to 1000AD

 

And you can read it? In English? What do you mean 'declassified'? The Vatican?

I am interested, if you find it please post it some where on the forum.

It would be a great 'tool' to add to our spiritual 'weaponry'.

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I know a lot of Mennonites, and have studied their history pretty well. They claim to be THE Anabaptists. They do pour for baptism. Menno Simons was their 'leader' and they do not carry the pureness of the doctrines about many of the 'ways of old'. They stress works for salvation, and have no foundation of the scriptures, in any strength, for any source of 'real' truth. They use opinions mostly on what the scriptures 'say' and heavily use the NASB and NIV to 'prove' their 'truths'. Their 'teachings' are very 'shallow', no depth. They love the Martyrs Mirror, (their equivalent of Foxes Book of Martyrs), and disagree with most Bible discussions I have had with them. They believe in falling from grace, losing ones salvation, and are drawn heavily to ecumenicalism. I have known and debated their Pastors and met one of their Bishops. Very friendly people and desirous of right living, but always fail to fulfill their desire, for sin overtakes them publicly all too often. Sounds like a lot of Baptists? But really, the ones I have known in IN, do not really follow the ways of the true line (doctrine wise) of anabaptists. The Munster Anabaptists were the most 'gross' form of anabaptist to them also, so you see, there maybe multiple 'types' of anabaptists, all claiming to be yet are not truly.

Just a little 'light' from my perspective, and experience.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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Yes, Geneva,

There is no reason to suppose that baptism, Anabaptism or baptism of converts makes true Christians, nor that the method is important. Faith in Christ is of first importance. 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Infant baptism is false, false, false.

Primarily because of why it is done.

Secondarily because of when it is done.

Thirdly because of how it is most often done.

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Infant baptism is false, false, false.

Primarily because of why it is done.

Secondarily because of when it is done.

Thirdly because of how it is most often done.

but no Bible verse to show it should not be done?

 

Shame on you.  How can you claim it is not Christian or the RC, Lutherans, Episcopalians and the Methodist are wrong if you don't show it by God's Final Authority for not having Infant Baptism?

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but no Bible verse to show it should not be done?

 

Shame on you.  How can you claim it is not Christian or the RC, Lutherans, Episcopalians and the Methodist are wrong if you don't show it by God's Final Authority for not having Infant Baptism?

 

I'm sorry - did you have a Bible verse to show that it's right? Fair's fair. :frog:  Covenanter has already given some excellent references, should you choose to OBserve them.

 

This is an Independent, Fundamental Baptist site. Baptists have been identified as such throughout history, through all sorts of various incarnations, by their rejection of infant baptism and doctrine of believer's baptism by immersion. We do not need to justify ourselves to paedOBaptists. AVBibleBeliever, your input on this topic has left the point of honest discussion. You are to stop ridiculing us for our Biblical beliefs and flouting our Statement of Faith. You are not required to accept it, but you must respect it. 

Your idea of a baptism/works-based salvation, based on an apparent distortion of dispensationalism, is flat out wrong. It is a false gospel. Your promotion of this heresy must also stop. Enough is enough.

This thread has completely left the OP - which is a shame, as it asked some excellent questions. Covenanter, perhaps you would consider bringing the question up again in a little while? It definitely needs to be asked.

:threadlockedbc5: 

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