All Preachers Should Have A Conceal Weapon Permit

[JerryNumbers]

No, I didn't imply it. You are just putting into it what you want to see.  So, don't try "reading my heart" by trying to make it seem like I was okaying pastoral sin.

 

I've been a part of this forum plenty long enough for you and everyone else to know that.   

 

Good, now your saying you did not post what you did post, why not be honest?

 

Here is >Happy Christians post. I'm going to copy & post what she posted in that post right below this.

 

 "Shepherds do whatever they need to in order to protect their flock."

This is the 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph in the post I linked to above. 

 

Sorry, I'm not a mind reader, I'm just a saves sinner.

[Zed]

"Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God." Psalm 20:7

[swathdiver]

I do not believe defending oneself or those unable to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary is evil according to the Scriptures.  It's simply self-defense.  If that were true, it would then seem that Romans 12:17 and 12:18 contradict one another and we all know that is not possible.

 

Neither is it vengeance or revenge as it applies to the previous "what if" scenarios.  

[Standing Firm In Christ]

What lies with in us should cause us to portray a spirit of peace amongst our neighbors, despite their persecuting us.

Our flesh should give way to the Holy Spirit when we are persecuted.

Romans 12:17-18 do not contradict each other, nor do they give license to act violently toward those who act violently toward us.

[irishman]

I do not believe defending oneself or those unable to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary is evil according to the Scriptures.  It's simply self-defense.  If that were true, it would then seem that Romans 12:17 and 12:18 contradict one another and we all know that is not possible.

 

Neither is it vengeance or revenge as it applies to the previous "what if" scenarios.  

 

There are many scenarios that we imagine, and a lot of "ifs", but while quoting scripture, lets not forget our Lords words when he told Peter to put away his sword, after cutting off malchus' ear, Mat 26:52  "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

 

No one has mentioned that one have they?

 

You can "if" all you want, but "If" you trust the Lord, you would never have those tragic things happen to ypu, don't you think He can deter the criminal and send him on his way? 

 

Is Psa. 91 true today, or written just for our amusement? 

 

 

And HC, I am surprised that you would be so adamant about taking anther's life.  Face it, anger is what makes us retaliate, and not justice.  I saw the old shows where pacifists were persecuted, and a hero with a gun saves them, but they would not defend themselves, and I shuttered to think of it, but, who am I (or you, or anyone) to decide that its time to end the life of a wicked man when he might get saved someday in the future?  We have the power over life and death, and that is more or less at our discretion, as if we were the Maker of man, and the life he has is ours.  Be a crusader if you wish, but don't go telling others its all right because YOU think it is.
 

[HappyChristian]

We are only pointing out the instructions Jesus has given to His brothers & sisters that we should follow. Liberty does not give no one the right to do that which our Father & our Savior has instructed us not to do. Now I understand that others:

 

• may disagree with this 
• may have been taught wrong about this
• or never fully understood this matter

 

You know our instructions tell us not to return evil for evil.

 

Pr 20:22 ¶ Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee.

 

Mt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

Ro 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

 

1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

 

Let look at this very practical.

 

If you see someone do evil to someone, & you do that very same thing to them, you have recompensed them evil for evil of which we are told not to do.

 

Ro 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

To overcome evil with good.

 

While leaving vengeance to our Lord.

 

Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Self-defense is not vengeance. Keep on telling yourself it is, and using scripture that is not intended to teach that self-defense is wrong.  

[HappyChristian]

No, all I've pointed to is the Holy Scriptures. And if your convicted of doing anything, I want the Holy Spirit to do the convicting & you to follow Jesus not me.

 

Go ahead & speak about misapplying, & never offer anyone any of the mercy & grace that God has shed upon you though Jesus who died on the cross to pay for your sin debt so you would not have to spend eternity in Hell paying for them your self.

 

Jesus is the one we are to follow & Jesus never took no ones life, yet He did die for the sinners who were His enemy so that they could have life. Yet we want to kill our enemies, thoes who do evil towards us.

 

Edited to add.

 

The part I placed in bold letters, matters not, what actually matters is if we:

 

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

If we deny self, take up our cross, & follow Jesus.

Tell the girls who were sodomized it "matters not," Jerry.  That's grace and mercy for you right there. smh.

 

Yep, Jesus is the one we are to follow.  And Jesus never said it was wrong to defend oneself or one's family.  In fact, He indicated otherwise when He spoke about the fully armed strong man - defending what was his.  And that would include his family. Or, if he's a pastor, his flock.

 

Never offer anyone the mercy and grace that God has given me?  Wow, Jerry, you are so presumptuous it isn't even funny.  Yet more of your brand of grace and mercy, I guess.

[HappyChristian]

Good, now your saying you did not post what you did post, why not be honest?

 

Here is >Happy Christians post. I'm going to copy & post what she posted in that post right below this.

 

 "Shepherds do whatever they need to in order to protect their flock."

This is the 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph in the post I linked to above. 

 

Sorry, I'm not a mind reader, I'm just a saves sinner.

Um, stop calling me a liar, Jerry.  Just watch yourself, okay (and lest you can't read my mind on that: asking why not be honest is the same as saying stop lying...)? And I'm not really just asking that....

 

"SHE" never said "SHE" didn't post that. "SHE" knows very well what "SHE" posted and "SHE" stands by what "SHE" said.  Shepherds do whatever is necessary.  Now, let's have a little lesson in comprehension.  I've been on this forum for a number of years, Jerry. And only someone who is purposely sowing discord would read into what I said that I recommend sinning.  Shame on you.  Just, shame on you.  No, you're not a mind reader.  And you don't read what's written very well sometimes, either.

 

And, yes, I said purposely sowing discord.  

[HappyChristian]

What lies with in us should cause us to portray a spirit of peace amongst our neighbors, despite their persecuting us.

Our flesh should give way to the Holy Spirit when we are persecuted.

Romans 12:17-18 do not contradict each other, nor do they give license to act violently toward those who act violently toward us.

Nor does it mean you can't defend yourself.  Or your family.  

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

This verse speaks against self-defense. 

Paraphrased - Treat others as you yourself want to be treated. 

If you want others to shoot at you, go ahead and shoot at others.  I still don't think it would be a wise decision.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I see no provender allowing for the shooting of those who hate you or who persecute you.

[HappyChristian]

And HC, I am surprised that you would be so adamant about taking anther's life.  Face it, anger is what makes us retaliate, and not justice.  I saw the old shows where pacifists were persecuted, and a hero with a gun saves them, but they would not defend themselves, and I shuttered to think of it, but, who am I (or you, or anyone) to decide that its time to end the life of a wicked man when he might get saved someday in the future?  We have the power over life and death, and that is more or less at our discretion, as if we were the Maker of man, and the life he has is ours.  Be a crusader if you wish, but don't go telling others its all right because YOU think it is.

 

Where did I advocate taking another's life?  Self-defense does not mean that. It means defending oneself.  There have been innumerable examples of defending oneself where no life was taken - least of all that which was defended.  Multiple times all that is necessary is for the perpetrator to see a gun and they turn tail and run.  No harm, no foul on either part.

 

Retaliation is not self-defense.  Self-defense is not retaliation. Retaliation would be to go after someone who did something and do something in return.  That is not self-defense.  Self-defense is a protection of self and family (and flock, to tie it in with the OP), and it is biblical.  A man is to provide for his household.  We err when we say that only means food and shelter.  It encompasses a whole lot of things, not the least of which is protection.  

 

If a person is intent on harming another person, that perpetrator has made the choice of whether or not he/she could die at that time.  It is not the fault of the person defending him/herself or family that a wicked person has tried to take a life.  

 

Man, oh, man - I cannot believe this.  Let's all band together and say let the perp kill, don't take his life, but let him kill, rape, maim someone while we watch and say I trust God to deliver us...while the gun God gave us sits empty because it isn't up to us to use it for protection.  Wow.  Just wow. 

 

Okay, irish, it's okay for you to tell me it's not right because YOU think it isn't, but I can't say the opposite?  I see..

 

Let's face it - we all have verses we can use to "justify" what we are saying.  But - and I've said this before, right here in this thread, but it's been conveniently overlooked - if you (again, generically speaking) don't want to have a gun (for self-defense, not for retaliation or vengeance), then don't have one.  But quit trying to make those who do have them feel that they are sinning because you don't agree with it.  Quit trying to change the meanings of words.  Vengeance and retaliation are not self-defense and ought not, by honest people, to be presented as such (and please note -I'm not questioning people's honesty...I'm saying you are honest people and so ought not be mixing up meanings).

 

A man who doesn't provide for those in his household is worse than an infidel.  Those who don't provide protection (protection does not mean a gun - but if one chooses to have a gun for protection, it is that man's business and no one else's) are worse than infidels.  

[Zed]

I wouldn't say that you let someone do horrible things to your family. If someone wanted to harm my sisters or someone close to me, I would try to defend them. I'd just do so without a gun, and not with the intention of killing them.

 

The thing that rings warning bells for me is the attitude I see towards guns... I find it quite off-putting.

 

Also, the OP seems to be talking about getting a gun to defend yourself from threats caused by your teaching. That does not seem like an attitude found in the Bible, as others have already pointed out.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Zed

[HappyChristian]

I wouldn't say that you let someone do horrible things to your family. If someone wanted to harm my sisters or someone close to me, I would try to defend them. I'd just do so without a gun, and not with the intention of killing them.

And that would be your right.  And kudos to you for it.  But if someone elects to defend with a gun, it is still defense. If a gun is wrong than so are fists or rocks or whatever, because any of those can kill as well.  I've never met a responsible gun owner (read: non-criminal) who wants to kill someone.  That should never be the intention.  

[The Glory Land]

Right Jerry. 

it is clear we are not to recompense evil for evil, but are to wait on the Lord.

 

 

Many are still waiting for the Lords first coming too?

[JerryNumbers]

Many are still waiting for the Lords first coming too?

 

So your advocating recompensing evil for evil because there's many who are mislead & refuse to believe Bible truths?