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The Glory Land

All Preachers Should Have A Conceal Weapon Permit

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Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I guess many would like to rip that verse out of their Bibles... or just take a permanent marker and cross it out.

 

 

Avenge and pertect yourselves, are two differant meanings. Your welcome.... :boxing:

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If you agreed with the Constitution you would not hold this view.  The Federal and State governments have no authority under the Constitution to infringe on gun owners in this manner.  

 

An irresponsible person with a gun should be prosecuted severely.  You don't punish 300 million people based on what some nuts do or might do. 

 

 

 

 

Actually, the U.S. Constitution only stipulates that the federal government has no authority to do anything with regards to guns. State's and localities are free, under the Constitution, to establish their own gun laws.

 

I agree that punishment for crimes should effect those guilty of crimes, not the general citizenship. It's a proven fact that more severe penalties for gun use deters gun crimes. One example involves "enhancement laws", wherein if one commits a crime using a gun, whatever the sentence for the particular crime is, on top of that is added a certain amount of additional years because a gun was involved.

 

When these laws were first passed, criminals began using toy and otherwise fake guns to commit crimes with, thus avoiding the risk of extra years in prison. However, once laws were written to address this, making the use of anything resembling a gun in the commission of a crime to also be enhanced, the criminals stopped using the toy and fake guns.

 

The same can also be seen over the history of the "drug war". Whenever the penalty for a particular drug goes up, many criminals switch to dealing drugs with lesser possible penalty.

 

Our laws, overall, fail to deter crime. Now Obama and Holder have proposed new federal laws, and are "encouraging" the states to go along too, that would lower drug crime sentences as well as actually releasing thousands from prison.

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If you agreed with the Constitution you would not hold this view.  The Federal and State governments have no authority under the Constitution to infringe on gun owners in this manner.  

 

An irresponsible person with a gun should be prosecuted severely.  You don't punish 300 million people based on what some nuts do or might do. 

 

 

How in the world did you come up with all this from what I said? I sometimes think folks in this forum want to say something, anything, just to get their two cents in.

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Are you saying that it would make your day for the bad guy to make the wrong move  so you or someone else could kill him.

 

No.  It would make my day to hold my daughter again if I had to forcibly get her back from some bad guy.  I hope he would at least live long enough to share the gospel with, to make repentance towards God and put his faith in Jesus Christ.  That too would make my day!  

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No.  It would make my day to hold my daughter again if I had to forcibly get her back from some bad guy.  I hope he would at least live long enough to share the gospel with, to make repentance towards God and put his faith in Jesus Christ.  That too would make my day!  

Now that's hilarious.  Shoot him then share the Gospel with him. 

Do you seriously think a dying man would want to hear you speak of a God of love and mercy after you blow a hole in him out of anger?

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I wonder if anyone knows what it's like having a loved one murdered that could have been saved had there been a gun - in any circumstance?  I do.

 

I wonder if anyone knows what it's like having loved ones sodomized by knife point - at 13 & 14 years old - that could have been saved had there been a gun?  I do.

 

We've gone round and round and round about this.  As an American, you (and that's generic) can not have a gun if you want to.  But also as an American (oh, what a shame that seems to be), you can have a gun if you want to. Whether in the pulpit or not. It's not up to individuals to tell other individuals who are serving God that they are not right with God, not trusting God, if they choose to carry, concealed or otherwise. We can take any verse in scripture and apply/misapply it to anything we want.  The fact remains that God does not forbid carrying a gun.  That's a stricture man puts upon man.  It's a shame, really.

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Romans 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

I guess many would like to rip that verse out of their Bibles... or just take a permanent marker and cross it out.

 

Way to many of US Christians acts like that verse, & a few others are not in the Bible.

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Now that's hilarious.  Shoot him then share the Gospel with him. 

Do you seriously think a dying man would want to hear you speak of a God of love and mercy after you blow a hole in him out of anger?

 

First of all, he wouldn't have a choice, he would be a captive audience if you will.  Second, who said it was anger?  Would you have to be angry to pull a rapist off of your wife?  

 

Marty, it's unspeakable, gut-wrenching, awful thing to do and think about afterwards.  It's the last thing any Christian should want to do but there are times when it is necessary.  

 

Who here would not have taken up arms at Concord and Lexington in 1775?  If after that would you have showed up with your musket to take Fort Ticonderoga or waited until the battle of Bunker Hill?  Maybe you would have done nothing at all?

 

Romans 12:17-18  "Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.  If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

Edited by swathdiver

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The Anabaptists were not always right...and just because a man might choose to use a gun (that God does NOT say is wrong) to protect those he loves does not mean he isn't trusting God, nor is he necessarily following the "American way" that so many Americans on this thread seem to despise.  Carrying a gun isn't always just about shooting the person who might persecute one for being a Christian, you know.  (and if it were true that the American way were to shoot first, question later - millions more would be dead. But they aren't) And just because a person might choose to carry a gun doesn't mean they are concerned with material things.  They just might want to protect those whom God has put under their care...

 

The pastor is the undershepherd of the church he pastors.  Shepherds do whatever they need to in order to protect their flock. There's a reason God uses the idea of a Shepherd/undershepherd.  David didn't have a gun, but he had a rock, and he used it to protect his flock.  He also used his bare hands. I'm thinking God is a bit more concerned with His children than He is sheep... 

 

You implied it, not I, by saying do whatever they need to in order to protect the flock, which to mean means that you think they will do ANYTHING.

 

I cannot read a person heart as another poster on this board stated he could my heart, it would seem the thing to do would be clarified your statement if that's not what you meant.

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I wonder if anyone knows what it's like having a loved one murdered that could have been saved had there been a gun - in any circumstance?  I do.

 

I wonder if anyone knows what it's like having loved ones sodomized by knife point - at 13 & 14 years old - that could have been saved had there been a gun?  I do.

 

We've gone round and round and round about this.  As an American, you (and that's generic) can not have a gun if you want to.  But also as an American (oh, what a shame that seems to be), you can have a gun if you want to. Whether in the pulpit or not. It's not up to individuals to tell other individuals who are serving God that they are not right with God, not trusting God, if they choose to carry, concealed or otherwise. We can take any verse in scripture and apply/misapply it to anything we want.  The fact remains that God does not forbid carrying a gun.  That's a stricture man puts upon man.  It's a shame, really.

I had a pregnant cousin shot and killed.  Her baby was delivered post-mortem and only lived 40 days.  Yes, I do know what it is like to have a family member shot and killed.

Where is one's trust supposed to be?  In God? or in a gun?

Psalms 56:3 What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.
Psalms 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

God is able to deliver us from the mouths of lions and the fiery furnace just as well as He is able to keep us in the face of other enemies.  But, if he will not deliver me, I will not use violence against another whom He has created.
 

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You implied it, not I, by saying do whatever they need to in order to protect the flock, which to mean means that you think they will do ANYTHING.

 

I cannot read a person heart as another poster on this board stated he could my heart, it would seem the thing to do would be clarified your statement if that's not what you meant.

No, I didn't imply it. You are just putting into it what you want to see.  So, don't try "reading my heart" by trying to make it seem like I was okaying pastoral sin.

 

I've been a part of this forum plenty long enough for you and everyone else to know that.   

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No.  It would make my day to hold my daughter again if I had to forcibly get her back from some bad guy.  I hope he would at least live long enough to share the gospel with, to make repentance towards God and put his faith in Jesus Christ.  That too would make my day!  

 

You did not answer my question.

 

I'll ask it again.

 

If a person was threatening your daughter would it make your day to kill him or her?

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I had a pregnant cousin shot and killed.  Her baby was delivered post-mortem and only lived 40 days.  Yes, I do know what it is like to have a family member shot and killed.

Where is one's trust supposed to be?  In God? or in a gun?

Psalms 56:3 What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.
Psalms 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

God is able to deliver us from the mouths of lions and the fiery furnace just as well as He is able to keep us in the face of other enemies.  But, if he will not deliver me, I will not use violence against another whom He has created.
 

Just because a person has a gun doesn't mean they don't trust God.  God is able to deliver in any way He chooses: even with a gun. If you don't want to use a gun, don't use one. But don't try to imply that someone who has a gun doesn't trust God. That's simply an untruth and a misapplication of scripture. 

 

David had weapons, he was taught (by his own words) by God to fight.  So he was definitely not saying self-defense is wrong in those verses you quoted.  He killed a giant with a rock. That was violence, but that was of God.  

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And way too many Christians forget liberty in Christ  is also in the Bible.  Condemnation of self-defense, labeling it vengeance, is wrong and a misapplication of scripture. 

 

We are only pointing out the instructions Jesus has given to His brothers & sisters that we should follow. Liberty does not give no one the right to do that which our Father & our Savior has instructed us not to do. Now I understand that others:

 

  • may disagree with this 
  • may have been taught wrong about this
  • or never fully understood this matter

 

You know our instructions tell us not to return evil for evil.

 

Pr 20:22 ¶ Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee.

 

Mt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

Ro 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

 

1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

 

Let look at this very practical.

 

If you see someone do evil to someone, & you do that very same thing to them, you have recompensed them evil for evil of which we are told not to do.

 

Ro 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

To overcome evil with good.

 

While leaving vengeance to our Lord.

 

Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

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Right Jerry. 

it is clear we are not to recompense evil for evil, but are to wait on the Lord.

 

Yes, yet many professing Christians prepare before anything happens to them to do evil unto those who may do evil unto them. that is they're ready to kill those who might harm them. I believe that has become the America way, & professing Christians confuse the America way with God's way & they will mock anyone who tries to show them that is not God's way.

 

Not much mercy nor grace within us.

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No.  It would make my day to hold my daughter again if I had to forcibly get her back from some bad guy.  I hope he would at least live long enough to share the gospel with, to make repentance towards God and put his faith in Jesus Christ.  That too would make my day!  

 

Why not share the Gospel instead of shooting, should not our sword be the Word?

 

I don't believe most people after you've pulled out a big gun & shot them would be very receptive to the Gospel.

 

Think about what Jesus did for each of us.

 

Ro 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

 

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

 

That is while we were still His enemy He died for us, He commendeth his love toward us, & because of that if we repent & accept Jesus as Savior we will not receive what we actually deserve. And what everyone of us deserves is to spend eternity in Hell paying for our sins. We just do not like to show, share, the mercy & grace that both God the Father & our Savior Jesus poured out on us to others.

 

And why would we return evil for evil, especially being as God's Word tells us not to.

 

Ro 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
 
Ro 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

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I wonder if anyone knows what it's like having a loved one murdered that could have been saved had there been a gun - in any circumstance?  I do.

 

I wonder if anyone knows what it's like having loved ones sodomized by knife point - at 13 & 14 years old - that could have been saved had there been a gun?  I do.

 

We've gone round and round and round about this.  As an American, you (and that's generic) can not have a gun if you want to.  But also as an American (oh, what a shame that seems to be), you can have a gun if you want to. Whether in the pulpit or not. It's not up to individuals to tell other individuals who are serving God that they are not right with God, not trusting God, if they choose to carry, concealed or otherwise. We can take any verse in scripture and apply/misapply it to anything we want.  The fact remains that God does not forbid carrying a gun.  That's a stricture man puts upon man.  It's a shame, really.

 

No, all I've pointed to is the Holy Scriptures. And if your convicted of doing anything, I want the Holy Spirit to do the convicting & you to follow Jesus not me.

 

Go ahead & speak about misapplying, & never offer anyone any of the mercy & grace that God has shed upon you though Jesus who died on the cross to pay for your sin debt so you would not have to spend eternity in Hell paying for them your self.

 

Jesus is the one we are to follow & Jesus never took no ones life, yet He did die for the sinners who were His enemy so that they could have life. Yet we want to kill our enemies, thoes who do evil towards us.

 

Edited to add.

 

The part I placed in bold letters, matters not, what actually matters is if we:

 

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

If we deny self, take up our cross, & follow Jesus.

Edited by JerryNumbers

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I had a pregnant cousin shot and killed.  Her baby was delivered post-mortem and only lived 40 days.  Yes, I do know what it is like to have a family member shot and killed.

Where is one's trust supposed to be?  In God? or in a gun?

Psalms 56:3 What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee.
Psalms 23:4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

God is able to deliver us from the mouths of lions and the fiery furnace just as well as He is able to keep us in the face of other enemies.  But, if he will not deliver me, I will not use violence against another whom He has created.
 

 

I suppose many would want to go hunt the person down, kill them, & send the to Hell for God to punish. That would not be.

 

Mt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 

That would actually be getting vengeance.

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