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All Preachers Should Have A Conceal Weapon Permit

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No, I didn't imply it. You are just putting into it what you want to see.  So, don't try "reading my heart" by trying to make it seem like I was okaying pastoral sin.

 

I've been a part of this forum plenty long enough for you and everyone else to know that.   

 

Good, now your saying you did not post what you did post, why not be honest?

 

Here is >Happy Christians post. I'm going to copy & post what she posted in that post right below this.

 

 "Shepherds do whatever they need to in order to protect their flock."

This is the 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph in the post I linked to above. 

 

Sorry, I'm not a mind reader, I'm just a saves sinner.

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I do not believe defending oneself or those unable to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary is evil according to the Scriptures.  It's simply self-defense.  If that were true, it would then seem that Romans 12:17 and 12:18 contradict one another and we all know that is not possible.

 

Neither is it vengeance or revenge as it applies to the previous "what if" scenarios.  

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What lies with in us should cause us to portray a spirit of peace amongst our neighbors, despite their persecuting us.

Our flesh should give way to the Holy Spirit when we are persecuted.

Romans 12:17-18 do not contradict each other, nor do they give license to act violently toward those who act violently toward us.

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I do not believe defending oneself or those unable to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary is evil according to the Scriptures.  It's simply self-defense.  If that were true, it would then seem that Romans 12:17 and 12:18 contradict one another and we all know that is not possible.

 

Neither is it vengeance or revenge as it applies to the previous "what if" scenarios.  

 

There are many scenarios that we imagine, and a lot of "ifs", but while quoting scripture, lets not forget our Lords words when he told Peter to put away his sword, after cutting off malchus' ear, Mat 26:52  "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

 

No one has mentioned that one have they?

 

You can "if" all you want, but "If" you trust the Lord, you would never have those tragic things happen to ypu, don't you think He can deter the criminal and send him on his way? 

 

Is Psa. 91 true today, or written just for our amusement? 

 

 

And HC, I am surprised that you would be so adamant about taking anther's life.  Face it, anger is what makes us retaliate, and not justice.  I saw the old shows where pacifists were persecuted, and a hero with a gun saves them, but they would not defend themselves, and I shuttered to think of it, but, who am I (or you, or anyone) to decide that its time to end the life of a wicked man when he might get saved someday in the future?  We have the power over life and death, and that is more or less at our discretion, as if we were the Maker of man, and the life he has is ours.  Be a crusader if you wish, but don't go telling others its all right because YOU think it is.
 

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We are only pointing out the instructions Jesus has given to His brothers & sisters that we should follow. Liberty does not give no one the right to do that which our Father & our Savior has instructed us not to do. Now I understand that others:

 

  • may disagree with this 
  • may have been taught wrong about this
  • or never fully understood this matter

 

You know our instructions tell us not to return evil for evil.

 

Pr 20:22 ¶ Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and he shall save thee.

 

Mt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

Ro 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

 

1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.

 

Let look at this very practical.

 

If you see someone do evil to someone, & you do that very same thing to them, you have recompensed them evil for evil of which we are told not to do.

 

Ro 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

To overcome evil with good.

 

While leaving vengeance to our Lord.

 

Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Self-defense is not vengeance. Keep on telling yourself it is, and using scripture that is not intended to teach that self-defense is wrong.  

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No, all I've pointed to is the Holy Scriptures. And if your convicted of doing anything, I want the Holy Spirit to do the convicting & you to follow Jesus not me.

 

Go ahead & speak about misapplying, & never offer anyone any of the mercy & grace that God has shed upon you though Jesus who died on the cross to pay for your sin debt so you would not have to spend eternity in Hell paying for them your self.

 

Jesus is the one we are to follow & Jesus never took no ones life, yet He did die for the sinners who were His enemy so that they could have life. Yet we want to kill our enemies, thoes who do evil towards us.

 

Edited to add.

 

The part I placed in bold letters, matters not, what actually matters is if we:

 

Mt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

If we deny self, take up our cross, & follow Jesus.

Tell the girls who were sodomized it "matters not," Jerry.  That's grace and mercy for you right there. smh.

 

Yep, Jesus is the one we are to follow.  And Jesus never said it was wrong to defend oneself or one's family.  In fact, He indicated otherwise when He spoke about the fully armed strong man - defending what was his.  And that would include his family. Or, if he's a pastor, his flock.

 

Never offer anyone the mercy and grace that God has given me?  Wow, Jerry, you are so presumptuous it isn't even funny.  Yet more of your brand of grace and mercy, I guess.

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Good, now your saying you did not post what you did post, why not be honest?

 

Here is >Happy Christians post. I'm going to copy & post what she posted in that post right below this.

 

 "Shepherds do whatever they need to in order to protect their flock."

This is the 2nd sentence of the 2nd paragraph in the post I linked to above. 

 

Sorry, I'm not a mind reader, I'm just a saves sinner.

Um, stop calling me a liar, Jerry.  Just watch yourself, okay (and lest you can't read my mind on that: asking why not be honest is the same as saying stop lying...)? And I'm not really just asking that....

 

"SHE" never said "SHE" didn't post that. "SHE" knows very well what "SHE" posted and "SHE" stands by what "SHE" said.  Shepherds do whatever is necessary.  Now, let's have a little lesson in comprehension.  I've been on this forum for a number of years, Jerry. And only someone who is purposely sowing discord would read into what I said that I recommend sinning.  Shame on you.  Just, shame on you.  No, you're not a mind reader.  And you don't read what's written very well sometimes, either.

 

And, yes, I said purposely sowing discord.  

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What lies with in us should cause us to portray a spirit of peace amongst our neighbors, despite their persecuting us.

Our flesh should give way to the Holy Spirit when we are persecuted.

Romans 12:17-18 do not contradict each other, nor do they give license to act violently toward those who act violently toward us.

Nor does it mean you can't defend yourself.  Or your family.  

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Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

This verse speaks against self-defense. 

Paraphrased - Treat others as you yourself want to be treated. 

If you want others to shoot at you, go ahead and shoot at others.  I still don't think it would be a wise decision.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

I see no provender allowing for the shooting of those who hate you or who persecute you.

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And HC, I am surprised that you would be so adamant about taking anther's life.  Face it, anger is what makes us retaliate, and not justice.  I saw the old shows where pacifists were persecuted, and a hero with a gun saves them, but they would not defend themselves, and I shuttered to think of it, but, who am I (or you, or anyone) to decide that its time to end the life of a wicked man when he might get saved someday in the future?  We have the power over life and death, and that is more or less at our discretion, as if we were the Maker of man, and the life he has is ours.  Be a crusader if you wish, but don't go telling others its all right because YOU think it is.

 

Where did I advocate taking another's life?  Self-defense does not mean that. It means defending oneself.  There have been innumerable examples of defending oneself where no life was taken - least of all that which was defended.  Multiple times all that is necessary is for the perpetrator to see a gun and they turn tail and run.  No harm, no foul on either part.

 

Retaliation is not self-defense.  Self-defense is not retaliation. Retaliation would be to go after someone who did something and do something in return.  That is not self-defense.  Self-defense is a protection of self and family (and flock, to tie it in with the OP), and it is biblical.  A man is to provide for his household.  We err when we say that only means food and shelter.  It encompasses a whole lot of things, not the least of which is protection.  

 

If a person is intent on harming another person, that perpetrator has made the choice of whether or not he/she could die at that time.  It is not the fault of the person defending him/herself or family that a wicked person has tried to take a life.  

 

Man, oh, man - I cannot believe this.  Let's all band together and say let the perp kill, don't take his life, but let him kill, rape, maim someone while we watch and say I trust God to deliver us...while the gun God gave us sits empty because it isn't up to us to use it for protection.  Wow.  Just wow. 

 

Okay, irish, it's okay for you to tell me it's not right because YOU think it isn't, but I can't say the opposite?  I see..

 

Let's face it - we all have verses we can use to "justify" what we are saying.  But - and I've said this before, right here in this thread, but it's been conveniently overlooked - if you (again, generically speaking) don't want to have a gun (for self-defense, not for retaliation or vengeance), then don't have one.  But quit trying to make those who do have them feel that they are sinning because you don't agree with it.  Quit trying to change the meanings of words.  Vengeance and retaliation are not self-defense and ought not, by honest people, to be presented as such (and please note -I'm not questioning people's honesty...I'm saying you are honest people and so ought not be mixing up meanings).

 

A man who doesn't provide for those in his household is worse than an infidel.  Those who don't provide protection (protection does not mean a gun - but if one chooses to have a gun for protection, it is that man's business and no one else's) are worse than infidels.  

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I wouldn't say that you let someone do horrible things to your family. If someone wanted to harm my sisters or someone close to me, I would try to defend them. I'd just do so without a gun, and not with the intention of killing them.

 

The thing that rings warning bells for me is the attitude I see towards guns... I find it quite off-putting.

 

Also, the OP seems to be talking about getting a gun to defend yourself from threats caused by your teaching. That does not seem like an attitude found in the Bible, as others have already pointed out.

Edited by Zed

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I wouldn't say that you let someone do horrible things to your family. If someone wanted to harm my sisters or someone close to me, I would try to defend them. I'd just do so without a gun, and not with the intention of killing them.

And that would be your right.  And kudos to you for it.  But if someone elects to defend with a gun, it is still defense. If a gun is wrong than so are fists or rocks or whatever, because any of those can kill as well.  I've never met a responsible gun owner (read: non-criminal) who wants to kill someone.  That should never be the intention.  

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Here is an interesting story: in the Book of Ezra, Ezra is given a huge amount of gold, silver, etc, for the house of God. The problem being, they had to carry it all there, through possibly dangerous lands, with robbers on the roads, and get it thee intact and safe,  Simple solution: since the king is being so gracious, seek an escort, to get there safely, an armed entourage. Be a good steward, right? What does Ezra do? (stop me if you've heard it):

 

               "Then I proclaimed a fast there, at the river of Ahava, that we might afflict ourselves before our God, to seek of him a right way for us, and for our little ones, and for all our substance. For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him. So we fasted and besought our God for this: and he was intreated of us" (Ezra 8:21-23) 

 

   In most minds, of course Ezra would have been wise to seek armed guards to bring the treasures of the house of the Lord safely back to Jerusalem. But instead, he was more concerned over seeming that he had no trust in the God he claimed would protect His own. Where would be the faith? So instead, they fasted and prayed and sought direction from the Lord, and arrived safely in Jerusalem, not one farthing less.

 

   We say we trust in God, yet we seek the arm of flesh to protect us. If the Lord doesn't want us dead, no one can kill us, nor any of our family. If he wants one dead, no amount of guns and bullets and knives and such will change it.

 

  When my wife and I were dating, she called me from her farm and told me that there was a man there who was a friend of her dead husband, a drug dealer, who was trying to put the moves on her, now that she was single. So, I admit, I straped a gun to my hip, put on a trench coat and went out there. However, I ignored the gun, and spent about 20 minutes preaching to him. Now, I wish I could say he got saved, but instead, he got tired of the preaching and left of his own. And I never thought about the gun. I should have left it at home, I realized later. We all grow, right?

 

So instead of a gun I used the sword of the Spirit, and it cut him just right and he left. We won the day using only faith in God.

 

If we trust Him, if we say we have faith, why rely on our strength of arm?

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I believe there's many hear if someone were to smite them on their right cheek if at all possible they would knock them down or worse, never turning their left cheek to them. Turning you other cheek to them is not self-defense.

 

Mt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
 
Lu 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
 
In light of the Holy Scriptures its difficult to teach defense.
 
1Pe 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
 
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
 
Ro 12:17,18,19
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.  If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
 
Pr 24:29 Say not, I will do so to him as he hath done to me: I will render to the man according to his work.
 
Of course these ways are not the American ways, far from it. We've seen to much Hollywood & it prejudices us against the Bible & God's way..
 
Pr 25:21 ¶ If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:
Pr 25:22 For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee.

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Here is an interesting story: in the Book of Ezra, Ezra is given a huge amount of gold, silver, etc, for the house of God. The problem being, they had to carry it all there, through possibly dangerous lands, with robbers on the roads, and get it thee intact and safe,  Simple solution: since the king is being so gracious, seek an escort, to get there safely, an armed entourage. Be a good steward, right? What does Ezra do? (stop me if you've heard it):

 

               "Then I proclaimed a fast there, at the river of Ahava, that we might afflict ourselves before our God, to seek of him a right way for us, and for our little ones, and for all our substance. For I was ashamed to require of the king a band of soldiers and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way: because we had spoken unto the king, saying, The hand of our God is upon all them for good that seek him; but his power and his wrath is against all them that forsake him. So we fasted and besought our God for this: and he was intreated of us" (Ezra 8:21-23) 

 

   In most minds, of course Ezra would have been wise to seek armed guards to bring the treasures of the house of the Lord safely back to Jerusalem. But instead, he was more concerned over seeming that he had no trust in the God he claimed would protect His own. Where would be the faith? So instead, they fasted and prayed and sought direction from the Lord, and arrived safely in Jerusalem, not one farthing less.

 

   We say we trust in God, yet we seek the arm of flesh to protect us. If the Lord doesn't want us dead, no one can kill us, nor any of our family. If he wants one dead, no amount of guns and bullets and knives and such will change it.

 

  When my wife and I were dating, she called me from her farm and told me that there was a man there who was a friend of her dead husband, a drug dealer, who was trying to put the moves on her, now that she was single. So, I admit, I straped a gun to my hip, put on a trench coat and went out there. However, I ignored the gun, and spent about 20 minutes preaching to him. Now, I wish I could say he got saved, but instead, he got tired of the preaching and left of his own. And I never thought about the gun. I should have left it at home, I realized later. We all grow, right?

 

So instead of a gun I used the sword of the Spirit, and it cut him just right and he left. We won the day using only faith in God.

 

If we trust Him, if we say we have faith, why rely on our strength of arm?

Farthings?  I remember them but I didn't know you had them in America.  A farthing was one 960th of a pound.

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Why do you (generic) lock your doors?  If you don't, great. If you do, you're not trusting God, you're trusting the lock.

 

I figured that someone would come up with this question, and figured it might be you.  Locking the door is a deterrent, BUT THE PROWLER IS STILL LIVING WHEN HE LEAVES!

 

A motion detection light often works too.  The worst case scenario is not the norm, but the eager to kill "defender" will take it to the limit.

 

Why don't all these gun toters start killing Muslims, after all, they are no worse than Canaanites worshiping a false god and all.

How about blowing up a mosque?  that should stop the trouble before it starts.

 

By the way, I own 3 handguns and two rifles and a shotgun, but I do not wish to carry for protection; if I can't protect my family without a gun, I ain't much of a man!

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I don't play with rattle snakes, but if one trys to strike me, My machete will work well on its head.

 

Your a mocker & HappyChristian applauds you. Amazing at the many mockers that's hangs out around here who will mock anyone they disagree with.

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I figured that someone would come up with this question, and figured it might be you.  Locking the door is a deterrent, BUT THE PROWLER IS STILL LIVING WHEN HE LEAVES!

 

A motion detection light often works too.  The worst case scenario is not the norm, but the eager to kill "defender" will take it to the limit.

 

Why don't all these gun toters start killing Muslims, after all, they are no worse than Canaanites worshiping a false god and all.

How about blowing up a mosque?  that should stop the trouble before it starts.

 

By the way, I own 3 handguns and two rifles and a shotgun, but I do not wish to carry for protection; if I can't protect my family without a gun, I ain't much of a man!

 

True! Locks only keeps the honest man honest so I've been told.

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I think the better question to ask is whether anyone has killed before and had the thought of seeing them before the Great White Throne one day realizing you put them there and not a soul among us will care in that day why we did it. Now that is what we should think about all the time.

 

 

Some confuse acting American is acting Christian and it is not anymore. God used King James to start this country for the spreading of the Gospel to the uttermost but for absolutely no other reason. We are hardly serving His purpose anymore and the way it is going may end soon.

I used to think our country would play a part in standing with Israel in the great battle but I no longer think that. The base defiler leadership we have been getting may pit our country against her that day.

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