David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article

[No Nicolaitans]

I was hesitant to bring this up, but I've decided to...for what it's worth.

I didn't go back and read all of the entries in this thread, but I remember someone saying that David Cloud responded to their email, and he was very short with them (or something to that effect).

I corresponded with Mr. Cloud once; I think we swapped about 3 emails apiece.

In his first correspondence, he was very short and brisk; in that, he said that he would make an exception in my case, though he normally wouldn't since he didn't know me personally and he was a busy man.

At the time, I thought that was kind of rude, but I appreciated his willingness to make an exception.

I learned that he is an incredibly busy man...he's a missionary to Nepal (where he has started 3 churches...I think), he operates his website, his emails, writes books, does research for his books, preaches at various churches when he's in the States, and who knows what else.

The following emails that he sent me were also brisk and to the point...just saying what needed to be said.

So, I wouldn't take it personally if the email you received was short and brisk too. Granted, I think he could have been a little more gracious when we corresponded, but perhaps that's just his personality.

I know it appears that I'm defending David Cloud, and perhaps I am to an extent...but David Cloud isn't my golden calf.

Seth is correct, to receive his emails, you have to sign up for them.

By the way, before I cancelled my Facebook account, I was "friends" with Shelton Smith and was subscribed to the Sword of the Lord's Facebook page. I'm kind of like Bro. Jerry...I enjoy both the Sword and David Cloud.

If I have to join a camp, I'll forever be IFB, but I'll plant my standard with Jesus! David Cloud is fallible...Shelton Smith is fallible...I'm fallible...every man is fallible, but Jesus is the only one worthy to follow!

[Anon]

No I wasn't complaining it was short....he wrote back immediately which is actually commendable....I was saying I felt he was talking down to my husband, saying that he should be reading more of his literature and that he needed to be more informed and things...I don't even remember it all, but it wasn't the length of the email but the content, I guess.

[No Nicolaitans]

No I wasn't complaining it was short....he wrote back immediately which is actually commendable....I was saying I felt he was talking down to my husband, saying that he should be reading more of his literature and that he needed to be more informed and things...I don't even remember it all, but it wasn't the length of the email but the content, I guess.

Oh...I'm sorry if I misconstrued what was said earlier.

[John81]

No I wasn't complaining it was short....he wrote back immediately which is actually commendable....I was saying I felt he was talking down to my husband, saying that he should be reading more of his literature and that he needed to be more informed and things...I don't even remember it all, but it wasn't the length of the email but the content, I guess.

I had a similar exchange of emails with Cloud a few years ago. The basic message he kept repeating was that he was right, he wouldn't consider another point, I should read his writings, no he wouldn't respond to the Bible verses which seemed to clearly disagree with his position on a particular point. The emails he sent seemed to be arrogant and condescending and they led nowhere.

[HappyChristian]

Well, I know Bro. Cloud personally. And I know the pastor Kita is referencing. Both of these men have one goal in their lives: to love and serve the Lord with all their heart, soul, and might.

Both of these men preach God's Word without apology. And, in fact, have preached at the same conferences at our church (the same years, I mean). They preach in different manners, but they are both very interesting to hear, and God uses them mightily.

Bro. Cloud does not mince words. Pastor X doesn't either, but his approach is a bit different. And someone who doesn't know either of them could accuse both of them of being arrogant. But neither of them are. They are both uber busy men.

Again, I haven't read the article. I'm not really interested in reading it, especially after reading this thread. And even though I know Pastor X preaches where he believes God would have him preach, I don't have a problem with Bro. Cloud calling him out for it. Why? Well, we do have the God-given right of free speech...and if we are to muzzle Bro. Cloud (or others like him) because we don't like that he chose someone we like to focus on and rebuke, as it were, then we will in turn be muzzled eventually.

Do I think it's gossip? No. I think it's a man who is sharing his heart - and I would be quite surprised if he hadn't already shared it with Pastor X. Do I think this thread is gossip? No (my earlier post was simply to point out the irony...). I think as Christians we should discuss this type of thing. We need to understand what is happening in Christianity today - from several perspectives.

Pastor X will not worry about criticism and neither will Bro. Cloud. They will both continue to serve the Lord.

[Anon]

HC I guess it would have just been nicer IMO if Cloud would have said his piece about the speakers at the Sword without actually mentioning names.

Then it would be up to each person to look up the people and figure out what they want to do with the information.

When he personally named the names, he was basically calling out each man individually....which to me crossed the line. But then, that's just me.

[JerryNumbers]

Well, I know Bro. Cloud personally. And I know the pastor Kita is referencing. Both of these men have one goal in their lives: to love and serve the Lord with all their heart, soul, and might.

Both of these men preach God's Word without apology. And, in fact, have preached at the same conferences at our church (the same years, I mean). They preach in different manners, but they are both very interesting to hear, and God uses them mightily.

Bro. Cloud does not mince words. Pastor X doesn't either, but his approach is a bit different. And someone who doesn't know either of them could accuse both of them of being arrogant. But neither of them are. They are both uber busy men.

Again, I haven't read the article. I'm not really interested in reading it, especially after reading this thread. And even though I know Pastor X preaches where he believes God would have him preach, I don't have a problem with Bro. Cloud calling him out for it. Why? Well, we do have the God-given right of free speech...and if we are to muzzle Bro. Cloud (or others like him) because we don't like that he chose someone we like to focus on and rebuke, as it were, then we will in turn be muzzled eventually.

Do I think it's gossip? No. I think it's a man who is sharing his heart - and I would be quite surprised if he hadn't already shared it with Pastor X. Do I think this thread is gossip? No (my earlier post was simply to point out the irony...). I think as Christians we should discuss this type of thing. We need to understand what is happening in Christianity today - from several perspectives.

Pastor X will not worry about criticism and neither will Bro. Cloud. They will both continue to serve the Lord.

Good thoughts!

We are in the day that the speaker gets attacked from within & from without.

I try hard not to attack the person, if I disagree just tell them I disagree & why I disagree If I think its false teaching, I will state that. Yet not saying anything about that persons intelligence or their comprehension skills, nor telling them they need to read their Bible. That helps no one.

I was once a member of a Baptist Group, & its not that other Baptist group whose name comes up every now & again. That was my 1st experience on a message board, & it seems most tried to provoke those they disagree with them. I suppose I picked up some of their ways. I've tried to shed them.

And if I may say this about the topic at hand, sometimes that person may know something that we are not aware of as yet. And I am not saying that's the case in this matter, for I know nothing about those people.

[HappyChristian]

I understand, Kita. And part of me agrees with you. Since I haven't read the article (is that me being lazy? ), it can only be part - perhaps if I read the whole thing I would agree in entirety. Too, though, I think your reaction (as mine would have been) is also colored by your love for the man he named.

I think (and this is just my opinion) that one of the reasons Bro. Cloud says to read his books isn't so much that he thinks he's right (but of course he would...don't we all believe we are right when we are convinced of something in scripture?) as it is a way for a person to get to know Bro. Cloud's mind on things (and scripture as well) - and then, if there is still disagreement, so be it. If not, fine. KWIM? An article here or there doesn't completely do it.

[Jerry]

Kitagrl, I guess I am close, but not exactly where you are on this topic. If there is a preacher (ministry, church, etc.) that compromises in a certain way (such as believes heresy on a fundamental of the faith, is involved with or endorses some kind of blatant evil), then I would want to know it. For example, I don't want to just know Universalists are heretics and they have such and such false beliefs, I also would like to know if someone is one (such as C.S. Lewis) and what he or she teaches on the subject. A general warning has its place, but if there are specific people (referring to preachers, teachers, churches, etc.) involved in a particular compromise, then it is worthwhile to know. For example, if I expose Robert Schuller's heresies, but never point out specifically who it is teaching these heresies, I am neglecting part of my job as a watchmen. Haven't you ever had people say amen whenever you point out sin and compromise - but then get weird when you name a preacher, author, etc. that they know actually involved in that compromise. In the Bible, they named false teachers, false brethren, heretics, etc.

That being said, I agree that we should not be painting everyone with the same broad brush, unless it is proven that person ALSO is iMVolved in that compromise. I think sometimes people draw lines for themselves (for various reasons) and can't handle when another sound believer does not draw the line in the exact same place. Is a particular preacher a heretic, is he involved in the same compromises, does he put his stamp of approval on something that the Word of God teaches is wrong? Then he should be marked, to use Scriptural language. But if it is just a matter of a preacher differing with me on a minor matter, on something not spelled out in Scripture, then I believe I am to let him stand before the Lord on his own account. I am not him. Maybe the Lord has convicted me to do or not do something another preacher does or does not, but ultimately the Lord is the one we are individually accountable to.

Hopefully, I did not make sense or contradict myself! If it is a matter of sin, false teachings, etc., we should give a warning. If it is a matter of personal opinion, personal convictions (but not a doctrinal area), then we should leave their ministry up to the Lord.

[Anon]

Jerry, I think we agree...I'm fine with warning against heretical teachings. But personally knowing one of the pastors called out in Cloud's article, I feel it falls under the category of "disagreement" rather than "heresy" and therefore crossed a line.

It would be one thing to say "I don't agree with the Sword of the Lord. Here are the compromises the Sword group has made: "

It is another thing to say "I think the Sword of the Lord are compromisers AND here is a list of everyone who has preached there, and are therefore, also compromisers, including good IFB pastors of good IFB churches."

[Jerry]

Yes, that's one thing I was saying earlier. It's one thing to practice separation, and to separate from compromisers, and even to personally separate those who don't practice separation in who they are involved with (ie. those in the Sword not separating from those they should) - but another another thing to blacklist someone who doesn't separate from the people I separate from, especially when it comes to second or third degree separation (as some may refer to it). If because of convictions about lack of separation on the part of the Sword, I choose not to read their material or directly support their ministry - due to my personal convictions - it is not up to me to be someone else's conscience and judge them for not drawing the same line. That's what it sounds like in this case. Brother Cloud has chosen to separate from the Sword, and cannot agree with anyone else who doesn't draw the same line - without proving that a particular individual is also involved in compromise.

An illustration, I have some books in my library from unsound people. Most are in unopened boxes that I once used for research purposes, and maybe some others I just never got around to personally checking out or making a decision on - but make note: these are obviously books I am not using at all, just packed away. Now let's say a brother comes over to visit, and starts perusing my library. We talk and something sparks an interest in a good book I got that maybe I never unpacked since my last move. He helps me go through some boxes trying to find this book, and instead finds Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, sees no warning against the book written in the cover (because I'm not using it or passing it on), then concludes I must be partial to Lewis or at least not separated from him, therefore I am a compromiser in some way - the opposite is true: I hate Lewis so much that I have such a hard time going through his material personally to mark the heresies; therefore have kept the book until one day I decide to do so. Now, he decides to separate from me, and expose other people that won't likewise do so. Its one thing to expose Lewis, even expose those who quote from him or refer to him in a positive light, but not be against anyone who may have a particular book in their library.

Maybe my illustration fits a little, or maybe I am just so far off that I am missing something, but just trying to understand/discuss the issues more.

[2Tim215]

Though I have many of David Clouds sermons I have never listened to one nor read anything of his or read much about him. So my coming statement is not directed to him. But I have found through personal experience that those that demand separatism are usually the least separated, especially when they make a point of exposing those that "disagree" or share a slightly differing view point. When someone is on a band wagon it's usually best to get off and ride your own horse.

[Jerry]

David Cloud is solid, and has many very excellent study materials. Don't throw out a solid ministry just because you differ with where he draws a particular line. If it wasn't for solid Bible teachers like Cloud, many more IFB individuals and churches would be by the wayside as well. His is a discernment ministry and it has its place for sure, regardless of whether someone might cross all their t's the same or not. Take what he presents, check it out with the Bible, and if it lines up, then hold to it - as you should do with any other sound Bible teacher or preacher. If something doesn't line up, then throw that part out - if a lot doesn't line up, then disregard that ministry. But if a lot of it lines up, then pray for discernment and wisdom** for what to do with what you think is not correct. If it is his personal opinion or conviction, but not a clear Bible principle, then take it as such - but if it is a clear Bible principle, then we need to heed it - regardless of our personal feelings about the source (providing the source is generally reliable - I am certainly not advocating dipping into the wells of infidelity or some wishy washy teacher to glean something to take with us. As they say: Eat the meat and spit out the bones - but if the meat is tainted, throw it out!).

**We should be praying for wisdom and discernment when studying the Bible and reading material by others anyway.

[2Tim215]

David Cloud is solid, and has many very excellent study materials. Don't throw out a solid ministry just because you differ with where he draws a particular line. If it wasn't for solid Bible teachers like Cloud, many more IFB individuals and churches would be by the wayside as well. His is a discernment ministry and it has its place for sure, regardless of whether someone might cross all their t's the same or not. Take what he presents, check it out with the Bible, and if it lines up, then hold to it - as you should do with any other sound Bible teacher or preacher. If something doesn't line up, then throw that part out - if a lot doesn't line up, then disregard that ministry. But if a lot of it lines up, then pray for discernment and wisdom** for what to do with what you think is not correct. If it is his personal opinion or conviction, but not a clear Bible principle, then take it as such - but if it is a clear Bible principle, then we need to heed it - regardless of our personal feelings about the source (providing the source is generally reliable - I am certainly not advocating dipping into the wells of infidelity or some wishy washy teacher to glean something to take with us. As they say: Eat the meat and spit out the bones - but if the meat is tainted, throw it out!).

**We should be praying for wisdom and discernment when studying the Bible and reading material by others anyway.

Exactly what I meant when I said:

When someone is on a band wagon it's usually best to get off and ride your own horse.

[swathdiver]

HC I guess it would have just been nicer IMO if Cloud would have said his piece about the speakers at the Sword without actually mentioning names.

That wouldn't be biblical nor serve any real purpose. Now, what exactly did Brother Cloud accuse your preacher friend of again???