Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

Kitagrl

David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article

Recommended Posts

I should add I'm not a "Sword" follower.... but I do not think it concerns me what churches decide to be a part of their conference.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I should add I'm not a "Sword" follower.... but I do not think it concerns me what churches decide to be a part of their conference.


It may not concern you but it concerns us if our church is one of the offenders or is in partnership with one of the offending churches. We need to be very careful who we yoke with. I have seen many churches creep to the liberal side because of who they decided to start yoking with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may not concern you but it concerns us if our church is one of the offenders or is in partnership with one of the offending churches. We need to be very careful who we yoke with. I have seen many churches creep to the liberal side because of who they decided to start yoking with.


So, honestly, because a certain pastor spoke at a Sword Conference, you would no longer have anything to do with that pastor or that church because of that?

If not...why, specifically?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, honestly, because a certain pastor spoke at a Sword Conference, you would no longer have anything to do with that pastor or that church because of that?

If not...why, specifically?


I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know why this should be a problem. If the man is willing to speak there than that is a public thing and if cloud or anyone else does or doesn't like that they are free to say so. It is that pastors call about whether or not to preach there, it is clouds call about whether or not to condemn it, and anyone can make their own call about whether or not such a thing matters to them. No big deal.


Excellent. There are pastors that I would not let step behind my pulpit because of places they have preached & or been pastor of. A past friend, fellow pastor that I know quite well, or did know quite well, has been pastor of churches that hold to very questionable doctrine & practices. Because of that I would not have him in our church. Before he did theses things I would have had him.

In fact he, & another preacher, & I had a conversation about churches we would accept being pastor of before anyone of us 3 had been called. And he has done just what he said he would not do. It can be quite strange what a man will do when he is wanting to be a pastor of a church. Some times he will sacrifice truth in order to get a position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.


I do not believe in easy believism or lack of repentance either. However if a pastor goes to the Sword Conference and preaches the CORRECT view of repentance or salvation...why would that be a bad thing? I think that is what the problem is here...if a man chooses to preach at the Sword Conference yet still maintains his integrity and his standards and his separation, then...????? Is it right that Cloud is discouraging churches from having this man in their pulpit?

I guess when it comes down to it, some here believe in secondary separation, and some do not. I have to say I don't necessarily believe in secondary separation. I do, if its extreme (for instance a pastor who were to preach in a Mormon church would be heretical and in that case, secondary separation is necessary) but I don't if its not extreme (for instance, if a pastor preaches in a church where the music is a little more contemporary than in that pastor's own church). In the first case, there is an obvious problem. In the second case, as long as the pastor himself and his own church is right, I don't see why its anybody's concern if he decides to preach in a church that may have a different music standard within the IFB circle (i.e. within reason...i.e. not talking rock concerts, here.). And I don't see a need to separate from the good pastor over that sort of thing.

The second example is, I feel, similar to what has happened in this particular article by David Cloud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.

It may not concern you but it concerns us if our church is one of the offenders or is in partnership with one of the offending churches. We need to be very careful who we yoke with. I have seen many churches creep to the liberal side because of who they decided to start yoking with.


It concerns me very much where a pastor has preached, or held the position of pastor, if he was to happen to preach in our church. In a previous post I stated a preacher that I knew quite well years ago had held the position of pastor in some very questionable churches, not knowing this I would have him, yet knowing it I would not allow him behind my pulpit.

I believe we are in an age, that many people firmly believes that you never to say one thing about a person unless its good. And If you can't say good about a person keep your mouth shut. Of course that comes from the liberals, for they want no one to warn anyone about them.

And of course, a person is not going to agree with anyone 100% of the time,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe David Cloud is right in exposing anything by anyone that clearly does not line up with the Scriptures (ie. not referring to an area that is not spelled out clearly in the Bible); however, sometimes it seems some go too far with secondary separation. The Bible does not say separate from those preachers, etc. that do not separate from those who aren't separated. If a preacher is endorsing evil or personally involved in evil or compromise, they should be corrected/exposed - but if someone uses an opportunity to preach sound truth at a place that may be less than sound, that is between them and the Lord - as long as they are not personally involved in the compromise themselves or make it appear that they are endorsing all that goes on in that church, ministry, etc.

I admit sometimes it may be a fine line - but though the Scriptures do give us authority to expose evil, false teaching/teachers, sin, etc., I don't see where it gives us authority to blacklist a sound preacher who may have preached in a not so good place. What do we do with all those preachers and prophets in the Bible who preached where the Lord sent them, yet were places where evil was? Obviously God directed them to go there.

I had the opportunity to preach the Gospel at my Mom's memorial in a United Church - but I clearly preached the Gospel and the Saviour, and was rejected by my relatives afterwards. It was obvious to those there I did not agree with the teachings of the United Church and was in no way putting my stamp of approval on their church or religious beliefs.

Just some thoughts. Expose sin - but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

Edited by Jerry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've got the Old Testament, & we have the New Testament, & we have instructions of the new Testament Churches. And the new Testament Churches have to be guarded. And in the Old Testament there was not a New Testament Church to guard. But Israel did not guard them self very good, & they let those in that cased them to sin against God.

So separation has been in place throughout all time, & many of us are not very good at it.

I read that article several days before this topic was posted on here, I believe someone stated, all that were named were not called out, just a few of them.

And of course, everyone is not going to agree with every call Mr. Cloud makes, even among IFB Churches.

I suppose you were the one who made me aware of Mr. Cloud. I'm not sure how long I've been receiving his articles. I've disagree with some of his calls, but never made a big deal out of it calling for him to stop as some do, or even calling him names.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites



I would have to think about it. Sword Of The Lord does teach a wrong view of repentance and that is a serious matter. Also, if any of the speakers has CCM in their church we need to separate from them. Discernment is really lacking in many IFB churches and Cloud is a big help to educate IFB leaders. I am not say I always agree with Cloud but he fills a role that I don't see anyone else helping with.


I agreed with your reply. Based on this, then Cloud's warnings about Lancaster Baptist (thier music), if accurate, should make one avoid it, no?

If a church whose preaching is spot on(one up here in NE Ohio) but yet seems to promote Mr Chappell by displaying his books and preaching at his conferences annually, would you say by Mr Cloud's guideline/warnings, that we should avoid this church as well? From what I know about this church the preaching, doctrine and music is right, but should one be wary of them potentially falling away because of what appears to be a loose association with Lancaster/Chappell?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

I do not believe in easy believism or lack of repentance either. However if a pastor goes to the Sword Conference and preaches the CORRECT view of repentance or salvation...why would that be a bad thing? I think that is what the problem is here...if a man chooses to preach at the Sword Conference yet still maintains his integrity and his standards and his separation, then...????? Is it right that Cloud is discouraging churches from having this man in their pulpit?

I guess when it comes down to it, some here believe in secondary separation, and some do not. I have to say I don't necessarily believe in secondary separation. I do, if its extreme (for instance a pastor who were to preach in a Mormon church would be heretical and in that case, secondary separation is necessary) but I don't if its not extreme (for instance, if a pastor preaches in a church where the music is a little more contemporary than in that pastor's own church). In the first case, there is an obvious problem. In the second case, as long as the pastor himself and his own church is right, I don't see why its anybody's concern if he decides to preach in a church that may have a different music standard within the IFB circle (i.e. within reason...i.e. not talking rock concerts, here.). And I don't see a need to separate from the good pastor over that sort of thing.

The second example is, I feel, similar to what has happened in this particular article by David Cloud.


I would say if a pastor spoke at a conference (fellowship, etc.) to present an error to that conference then that would be between the speaker and the Lord. If he spoke on Biblical salvation verses easy believism or spoke out against CCM at the conference why would anyone castigate him? Why would that individual pastor's faithfulness, separation, or personal walk be called into question? However, if he cheerfully accepted a speaking role and told everyone things are wonderful when gross misdirection (away from Biblical teaching) were going on, then; he is complicit in error and needs rebuke. Where will the pastor of a successful IFB church receive rebuke when he begins to go astray?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, if David Cloud is gossiping because of mentioning names, what's going on this thread? Just sayin...

(please know that I'm not saying this shouldn't be discussed; but what's been said about David Cloud in this thread is of the same nature of the things he has said and been dissed as gossiping for)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, if David Cloud is gossiping because of mentioning names, what's going on this thread? Just sayin...

(please know that I'm not saying this shouldn't be discussed; but what's been said about David Cloud in this thread is of the same nature of the things he has said and been dissed as gossiping for)


I guess because this thread isn't being sent out to thousands of pastors' inboxes with names mentioned of pastors that they are supposed to "beware" of....

But...reprimand duly accepted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, believe me, I truly understand - and I wasn't meaning to reprimand, just to point out the irony of things. I haven't read the article, so I can't comment on it, although I do know who your hubby's former pastor is...and enjoy his preaching very much.


I guess because this thread isn't being sent out to thousands of pastors' inboxes with names mentioned of pastors that they are supposed to "beware" of....

But...reprimand duly accepted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's take this to the higher question which I posed earlier.

Is this "Ministry of Warning" Biblical?

Give a Biblical basis for this ministry if you think that men, other than your personal pastor, should be involved in this type of activity.

I personally do not believe it is Biblical, but before I post the Scripture that supports this I would like to see what others have to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's take this to the higher question which I posed earlier.

Is this "Ministry of Warning" Biblical?

Give a Biblical basis for this ministry if you think that men, other than your personal pastor, should be involved in this type of activity.

I personally do not believe it is Biblical, but before I post the Scripture that supports this I would like to see what others have to say.


Anxious to see your Scripture. My gut says that your own pastor should be involved (Paul did a lot of warning, but he himself planted or helped plant most of the churches he wrote to, therefore he counted as a pastor).

I can't see how emailing thousands of pastors and "warning" about other pastors that you personally disagree with can be quite what God had in mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the pastor should be responsible for "warning the flock", but unfortunately, many pastors have failed...and continue to fail...on purpose, because they don't want to offend anyone, and they don't want to alienate themselves.

Like I said earlier, I don't agree with everything David Cloud says, but I don't think it's necessarily un-biblical for him to do what he's doing...

This comes to mind...


Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

The command is to "brethren"...not just to pastors.

Also, in 1 and 2 Timothy, Paul named the names of false teachers and others who forsook Paul (thereby forsaking correct doctrine) several times (1 Timothy 1:20, 2 Timothy 1:15, 2:17, 3:8, 4:10, and 4:14).

Paul was the church planter, but he wasn't the Pastor of the church when he gave these "warnings"...Timothy was the pastor.

Pastorj and Kitagirl, please know that I'm not trying to argue about this...just stating things as I see them.

Like I said...I don't even agree with myself a lot of the time! :icon_confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree that the pastor should be responsible for "warning the flock", but unfortunately, many pastors have failed...and continue to fail...on purpose, because they don't want to offend anyone, and they don't want to alienate themselves.

Like I said earlier, I don't agree with everything David Cloud says, but I don't think it's necessarily un-biblical for him to do what he's doing...

This comes to mind...


Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

The command is to "brethren"...not just to pastors.

Also, in 1 and 2 Timothy, Paul named the names of false teachers and others who forsook Paul (thereby forsaking correct doctrine) several times (1 Timothy 1:20, 2 Timothy 1:15, 2:17, 3:8, 4:10, and 4:14).

Paul was the church planter, but he wasn't the Pastor of the church when he gave these "warnings"...Timothy was the pastor.

Pastorj and Kitagirl, please know that I'm not trying to argue about this...just stating things as I see them.

Like I said...I don't even agree with myself a lot of the time! :icon_confused:


Its okay! I totally understand where you're coming from.

I guess my point is that in my humble opinion, in this case, he was not warning the flock against something that needed warned against. You know? I think sometimes that extra-strict line should be drawn by your local pastor.

I don't feel like its fair to the pastor I'm referring to for somebody to send his name to zillions of inboxes saying he's compromising just because he spoke at a Sword Conference. I feel that is extreme, and I feel it is not the type of "warning" we need.

Now, say a popular Bible college is compromising on the Word of God or having rock concerts....its true, pastors will need to know that so they can make educated decisions on where to send their students. But to call out pastors of local churches based on where they preach out? Ehh. There's no reason I need to pass judgement on other people's pastors for something like that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Its okay! I totally understand where you're coming from.

I guess my point is that in my humble opinion, in this case, he was not warning the flock against something that needed warned against. You know? I think sometimes that extra-strict line should be drawn by your local pastor.

I don't feel like its fair to the pastor I'm referring to for somebody to send his name to zillions of inboxes saying he's compromising just because he spoke at a Sword Conference. I feel that is extreme, and I feel it is not the type of "warning" we need.

Now, say a popular Bible college is compromising on the Word of God or having rock concerts....its true, pastors will need to know that so they can make educated decisions on where to send their students. But to call out pastors of local churches based on where they preach out? Ehh. There's no reason I need to pass judgement on other people's pastors for something like that.


I see your side too.

We need more pastors with a back-bone...who aren't afraid to "call 'em out"!

But I do appreciate a lot of what David Cloud has to say...trust me...in my area, I would never have known about hardly any of the compromise, bad doctrine, etc...that goes on in the church today. People in my area just don't care...and neither do the pastors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see your side too.

We need more pastors with a back-bone...who aren't afraid to "call 'em out"!

But I do appreciate a lot of what David Cloud has to say...trust me...in my area, I would never have known about hardly any of the compromise, bad doctrine, etc...that goes on in the church today. People in my area just don't care...and neither do the pastors.


Me too!

And I feel there's many out there feels the same.

I can see Suzy's side to, for me I know none of those he warns about, so I'm not personally connected. That is I may have heard of them, read a book of theirs, or sermons in the Sword of the Lord, but that's it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anxious to see your Scripture.




PRIVATE REPROOF VS. PUBLIC

JUNE 5, 2012


(David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org)





The following is excerpted from the new book The Two Jacks: Hyles and Schaap, which is available in print for purchase or as a free eBook from the Way of Life web site -- www.wayoflife.org.

___________________



The very fact that there are still many preachers today who believe a public warning about influential independent Baptist leaders is wrong is evidence that the spirit and error of Jack Hylesism is alive and well.

It is time for this heresy to be buried.

They say, “Who do you think you are to speak against such men?”

I can’t answer for others, but my personal answer to that is, “I don’t think I’m anybody at all. I’m just a frail and simple man God saved and called to preach, but I have His authority to speak and so does every other God-called preacher.”

God solemnly charges the preacher to identify false teachers, to exhort, reprove, and rebuke with all authority, to speak as the oracles of God, to earnestly contend for the faith, and even to warn about born-again compromisers (Romans 16:17; 2 Timothy 4:2; Titus 2:15; 1 Peter 4:11; Jude 3; 2 Thess. 3:6; 2 Tim. 4:10). Nowhere in Scripture are these commandments restricted in their scope. Nowhere does God say that a Bible preacher can reprove and rebuke only the members of his own church or that he can reprove and rebuke anyone who errs except an influential Christian leader.

To reprove public sin and error publicly by the Word of God under the guidance of the Spirit of God and in His wisdom is not slander and is not gossip and is not “throwing rocks” and is not “shooting the wounded” and is not hateful and is not dishonoring to Christ.

Private offenses and private sins need to be dealt with privately, but public errors need to be dealt with publicly. When a man builds an ecclesiastical empire, of sorts, and influences thousands of people beyond the borders of his congregation, his errors are no longer private matters and they are no longer matters pertaining only to his church.

When a man admits and repents of a sin or error, that is one thing and is dealt with in a certain way. But when an influential man covers up sins and errors and lies about them and even goes on the attack against those who try to expose them, that is another matter altogether and is to be dealt with in entirely a different way.

We must be very careful about what we say about men of God. We must be careful not to spread unsubstantiated rumors. We must be careful not to give heed to vindictive, disgruntled, backslidden people who are trying to injure the work of God. We must be very wise in what we say and in how we say it. We must make sure that we are speaking the truth, and we must test our hearts before God to make sure we are speaking the truth in the right spirit and for the right reason.

We don’t publicly reprove every pastor who errs or call out every church that compromises. Contrary to the silly and slanderous accusation that some have made against us, we don’t consider ourselves the “policeman of the IFB movement.”

The reality is that some men’s influence is much greater than others. Some men’s ministries effect only their own congregation, whereas some men’s affect tens of thousands.

When the sin of hypocrisy and the compromise of the principles of equality under the gospel was spreading in the early churches, the apostle Paul singled out Peter to rebuke before them all, for the simple reason that he was the most influential personality in that mess.

“But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I SAID UNTO PETER BEFORE THEM ALL, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified” (Galatians 2:11-16).

We must be wise in speaking, but speak we must when the situation merits it. Let us fear God more than man.

“The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe” (Proverbs 29:25).

“Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen” (1 John 5:21).

One can hide in the crowd in this life and take his “stand” with the weak-kneed majority, but no one can hide at the judgment seat of Christ.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Suzy, this isn't the first time someone well-known has publicly criticized the pastor you're referencing due to his speaking at SOTL conferences and the like. I remember more than once when he's preached at our church that he's mentioned being criticized for it. He's always laughed and made a statement to the effect that he will preach wherever God leads him to. And he does!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Suzy, this isn't the first time someone well-known has publicly criticized the pastor you're referencing due to his speaking at SOTL conferences and the like. I remember more than once when he's preached at our church that he's mentioned being criticized for it. He's always laughed and made a statement to the effect that he will preach wherever God leads him to. And he does!


We love that about him! If he's praying about his preaching meetings, who are we to say he's wrong? Everything about him shows fruit of him being a man of God. And I get tired of people feeling like they have to pick and choose a "camp" to be part of, and then people from one "camp" sneer at people from the other "camp" and its just crazy. "I am of Paul...I am of Apollos.....I am of Christ."

The pastor I'm referring to just follows God....not men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't see how emailing thousands of pastors and "warning" about other pastors that you personally disagree with can be quite what God had in mind.


Unless I am mistaken you have to sign up to get those e-mails. Since that is the case the only people that get the "warnings" are those who have at least some interest in what cloud has to say at least some of the time. It is just a person giving his opinion and you may or may not agree with him on any particular issue. How many people do or do not value his opinion or listen to him has nothing to do with anything strictly speaking. I get the impression your biggest problem with it is that cloud has a fairly wide audience and therefore you seem to think he should be more careful about expressing his opinions. To me though these kind of things are just his opinions which people can take or leave as they see fit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless I am mistaken you have to sign up to get those e-mails. Since that is the case the only people that get the "warnings" are those who have at least some interest in what cloud has to say at least some of the time. It is just a person giving his opinion and you may or may not agree with him on any particular issue. How many people do or do not value his opinion or listen to him has nothing to do with anything strictly speaking. I get the impression your biggest problem with it is that cloud has a fairly wide audience and therefore you seem to think he should be more careful about expressing his opinions. To me though these kind of things are just his opinions which people can take or leave as they see fit.


I think, actually, my main thing is that there are a LOT of people who will follow exactly what Cloud says without actually knowing the people whereof he is speaking. So, say, Pastor Joe Smith (or whatever) out in Tennessee (Names out of a hat) may think about having Pastor X in his pulpit. But then Pastor Smith reads an article by Cloud that Pastor X spoke at a Sword conference and is a compromiser. Now Pastor Smith may decide NOT to have Pastor X in his pulpit simply because David Cloud said it was bad....NOT because he truly disagreed with Pastor X or felt he was unworthy to be in his pulpit.

Basically, I'm saying I personally know "Pastor X" and that he is above reproach in all things and hope people do not look badly on him because of this. However, I'm sure his good reputation precedes him and that this will not harm him in the long run. *Shrug*

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   1 Member, 0 Anonymous, 25 Guests (See full list)

×
×
  • Create New...