David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article

[Salyan]

I ask this next question in all humility.....(based on Mr. Cloud's continued "writings"), would there be ANY solid church that anyone of us could attend? I think we can all agree that there is no "perfect" church this side of heaven, but I have to wonder, if I/we used Mr. Cloud's writings as a measuring stick, would we find any church that would be the "right" one?

I think we would. They would be churches with pastors who don't hold to any 'man-cult' (if you will), shun fellowships with - not weaker - but compromising - churches, and are very careful to consider the implications and associations of the choices they make. Thankfully, though, we are not required to use Br. Cloud or anyone else's writings as a measuring stick for our church. I don't think that he is 'calling out' all the speakers on the list - just listing those who are speaking so he can 'call out' the Sword on a few of them.

I agree with what Br. Cloud says, but it seems to me that the manner in which he says it is getting rather... abrasive? Like maybe he feels the need to defend himself a bit too much? I totally understand the desire to defend himself - he must get some awfully disagreeing messages aimed at himself - but I feel like his manner of response is beginning to 'turn people off' and will affect their attention to his legitimate warnings. :twocents:

[irishman]

I have written several times on this forum about some of Mr. Clouds "warning", and wonder about the terms "Warning ministry". We all know that there is a lot of disagreement among IFB's on many doctrines, and the word "heretic" is used quite loosely. Which so called warning warrior do we align with? The one that comes closest to what we wish to believe. I, for one, do not respect Mr. Cloud or his vendetta against so many men who are trying to make a difference through soul winning and preaching. Once we let criticism in, it can eat us up! Sure there are things we need to warn the church about, but it is too easy to go too far with it.

Speaking of the Sword of the Lord, (June 8th issue) there is a great article on standards in the latest issue.by Bro. Ouellette. He even mentions Deut. 22: 8-10 and gives the application. It is a good article, although he carefully avoided 22:5, but I understand why, seeing that I know him well. Anyway, it is worth checking out.

[Wilchbla]

Does David Cloud even have a church? It's easy to be critical of churches when you don't pastor one yourself.

[1John2:15-17]

I have written several times on this forum about some of Mr. Clouds "warning", and wonder about the terms "Warning ministry". We all know that there is a lot of disagreement among IFB's on many doctrines, and the word "heretic" is used quite loosely. Which so called warning warrior do we align with? The one that comes closest to what we wish to believe. I, for one, do not respect Mr. Cloud or his vendetta against so many men who are trying to make a difference through soul winning and preaching. Once we let criticism in, it can eat us up! Sure there are things we need to warn the church about, but it is too easy to go too far with it.

Speaking of the Sword of the Lord, (June 8th issue) there is a great article on standards in the latest issue.by Bro. Ouellette. He even mentions Deut. 22: 8-10 and gives the application. It is a good article, although he carefully avoided 22:5, but I understand why, seeing that I know him well. Anyway, it is worth checking out.

Haven't read it yet. I have heard/seen Bro. Ouellette on a few occasions.

[Salyan]

Does David Cloud even have a church? It's easy to be critical of churches when you don't pastor one yourself.

Yes. He pastors a church in Nepal. I believe his son (or son-in-law?) is there as well.

[Jerry]

Let's not confuse the how with the what. Some may disagree with how they think he comes across - but make sure you don't throw out his ministry if what he says lines up with Scripture. If it does, we need to heed it regardless of whether we like his manner of teaching or exposing truth. We are responsible before the Lord to obey the truth when we hear/read it, whether we like a preacher or his style or not. I'm sure king David thought Nathan the prophet was irritable or abrasive when he exposed David's sin.

[OFIB Preacher]

I haven't read this whole thread yet, so you may have already answered these questions/my concerns. You say your husband received this article yesterday? Could you please give the title and/or a link to the article that we may all see it for ourselves? It seems your statements are gosip themselves, especially with no direct information to back them up. Yes it is very easy/possible to be hyper-critical, but I'd like to see his article personally and not just your opinion, please.

[OFIB Preacher]

My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.

In reading this, I say a whole-hearted AMEN to it!

[OFIB Preacher]

I received that article in my email yesterday, but it has not been posted to the Way of Life website yet. The name of the article is:
"WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING WITHIN A GENERATION", June 18, 2012. I would assume that it will be posted to the website within the next few days.

Thanks for the info, I'll check their RSS feed!

[OFIB Preacher]

Here's a copy/paste of the article referenced.

WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING

WITHIN A GENERATION

JUNE 18, 2012

(David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org)

The National Sword of the Lord conference is scheduled for July 23-27 at Gospel Light Baptist Church, Walkertown, North Carolina. The speakers are Marc Dalton, Joe Arthur, Frank Gagliano, Jeff Fugate, John Hamblin, Tim Rabon, Lou Rossi, Kevin Folger, Mark Campbell, Raymond Barber, Norris Belcher, Mike Norris, Bobby Roberson, Paul Chappell, R.B.Ouellette, and Mike Allison. The Sword director is Shelton Smith.

In the book Why Most Independent Baptist Churches Will Be Emerging, we give the following eight reasons why we are convinced that most IFBaptist churches will be well down the contemporary path within a generation:

The maligning of warning and reproof
Unquestioning loyalty to man
Following the crowd
Ignorance about important Issues
Soft separatism
Lack of serious discipleship
Carelessness about music
Quick Prayerism

These points apply to the churches that are most deeply influenced by and that most deeply resonate with the Sword of the Lord.

The bottom line is that these churches, for the most part, are simply not prepared to face the level of spiritual warfare that is raging against every Bible-believing church today.

The Sword has never renounced the cult of Jack Hyles. It has never warned of Lee Roberson’s soft and ineffectual separatism which resulted in the dramatic downfall of Highland Park Baptist Church. It has never lifted a voice against Paul Chappell’s dangerous, unscriptural adaptation of contemporary worship music. In fact, in the most idolatrous manner, the Sword does not allow any warnings to be issued in regard to its heroes. Any such warnings are mischaracterized and the warners maligned. There is not a more effective “good old boys” network anywhere. As for the heresy of Quick Prayerism, the Sword has been at the forefront of promoting the men who created it and exalting those who practice it.

WHY MOST INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCHES WILL BE EMERGING is available as a free 65-page eBook from the Way of Life web site -- http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/

THE TWO JACKS: JACK HYLES AND JACK SCHAAP is also available as a free eBook. Few men have had a greater influence on the Sword than Jack Hyles.
H

Thank you for posting the article. I found it excellent and right on target!

[OFIB Preacher]

I think that perhaps it is Bro. Cloud's intention to warn God's people about certain "things" that are creeping into our churches. In doing so, he will name the names of those individuals who are allowing these "things" to creep in. Bro. Cloud has said time and time again that he has a "Warning Ministry". Part of that is to warn the leaders of churches and ministries when they begin to drift.

I don't believe that it is Bro. Cloud's intention to slander anyone; rather, he hopes that in pointing out error, those people involved will see the error and repent. I think the reason it seems that Bro. Cloud is "more negative" and pointing out more and more problems with people and ministries is because error is becoming rampant in churches, and more and more people are willing to accept it.

I don't agree with everything Bro. Cloud says; he's fallible just like any man, but I do find myself agreeing with him the majority of the time.

I don't even agree with myself all the time!

Exactly and LOL! For those who don't know, I was in Easy Believism/Quick Prayerism for around six years, before, during and after my Bible college years. The LORD got me out of it, by getting me around preaching from such men as Larry Raynes, Dale Massengale and too many others to mention here. Even though He was getting me out of it, it took a little while for it to get all out of my system, if you know what I mean. I praise and thank the LORD for men who take a biblical stand against false doctrine, as Brother Cloud has done/is doing! No, he isn't perfect, but before we start thinking higher of ourselves than we ought, we aren't either. We're fallible but God's word, the KJB isn't! BTW, for preaching from the men I mentioned and those too many others to mention here, please go to the link in my signiture! Thank you.

[OFIB Preacher]

It's a fine line between warning about things and "cutting" those involved with the blade.

There is also that line we must all determine as to when an otherwise sound pastor/ministry has crossed over and should be viewed with caution or avoided.

The Sword of the Lord is a good example of this. They have a very loyal following, many of which will tend to put loyalty to their "camp" above cautions voiced by others.

Cloud is probably just pointing out some of what many of us have seen, and that is IFB no longer means what it once did and will only become more that way. At some point in the future, it's probable many who are IFB today will have to come up with another identifying name because there will be so many wayward or outright wrong IFB churches/ministries/pastors out there.

So, where do we draw the line? If an IFB church uses select contemporary music set to a piano is that something to separate over, something to denounce their entire ministry over? What about if they sometimes quote from those who were biblically unsound in some areas? Then that would lead to just how unsound could they have been and still be worth quoting. What about Spurgeon, Wesley, Luther, Graham, Hyles, Rogers, Smith?

Those were just a couple examples, we could add others.

The point is, are we able to come up with a clear line or will we find that in some matters it's more of a boundary area with a clear line not being seen until one gets to the other side of that boundary area?

Good points John. Unfortunately, the SOTL bunch is more loyal to the SOTL than they are to Christ.

[OFIB Preacher]

I read most of the eBook you mentioned in the earlier post. I agree with No Nicolaitans this is meant to be a warning.

I wonder what Bro. Cloud would say about the FBF and the FBFI?

Serious question here: Who? Never heard of them before, I don't think.

[1John2:15-17]

I'm not bashing, but I guess that I'm a little surprised that the number of "right" churches must be less than I thought. Much of what Cloud says is accurate. If it wasn't for some of his warnings I would definitely be less "in-the-know." When I moved from MO to OH I figured it would be difficult to find a good church (and one that doesn't have a hint of falling away), and I was right. I miss my old church back in MO in many ways.

[JerryNumbers]

I think that perhaps it is Bro. Cloud's intention to warn God's people about certain "things" that are creeping into our churches. In doing so, he will name the names of those individuals who are allowing these "things" to creep in. Bro. Cloud has said time and time again that he has a "Warning Ministry". Part of that is to warn the leaders of churches and ministries when they begin to drift.

I don't believe that it is Bro. Cloud's intention to slander anyone; rather, he hopes that in pointing out error, those people involved will see the error and repent. I think the reason it seems that Bro. Cloud is "more negative" and pointing out more and more problems with people and ministries is because error is becoming rampant in churches, and more and more people are willing to accept it.

I don't agree with everything Bro. Cloud says; he's fallible just like any man, but I do find myself agreeing with him the majority of the time.

I don't even agree with myself all the time!

I subscribe to Bro. Clouds newsletters, & I subscribe to Sword of the Lord. I'm cautious with Bro. Cloud, & I've very cautious with the whose who among the Sword of the Lord's bunch. And some of those in the Sword of the Lord I could not recommend to anyone. And neither do I speak out against them, I know not enough about them.

And I enjoy reading both of them.