David Cloud Sword Of The Lord Article

[Anon]

My husband got an article today, something about David Cloud complaining that all preachers associated with the Sword of the Lord are going to be the new "emerging church" and he called out everyone who preached there by name, one of whom, at least, we know personally as a separated, fundamental Baptist pastor who simply does not "choose camps" but holds his own tight line of separation between himself and the world, and has a very sound, strong IFB church.

It seems like David Cloud is getting more and more and MORE negative....does he even LIKE any pastors out there anymore? Seriously...I understand the need to warn your sheep about the wolves but some of his stuff today is nearing the hypercritical gossip that the New Testament condemns....????

[Jerry]

I hope he is not getting that way - but it is easy to get hypercritical. It does seem the road that lies at the end of separation from everybody and everything.

[Guest]

My husband got an article today, something about David Cloud complaining that all preachers associated with the Sword of the Lord are going to be the new "emerging church" and he called out everyone who preached there by name, one of whom, at least, we know personally as a separated, fundamental Baptist pastor who simply does not "choose camps" but holds his own tight line of separation between himself and the world, and has a very sound, strong IFB church.

It seems like David Cloud is getting more and more and MORE negative....does he even LIKE any pastors out there anymore? Seriously...I understand the need to warn your sheep about the wolves but some of his stuff today is nearing the hypercritical gossip that the New Testament condemns....????

Can you provide an article name and web location?

[Jerry]

My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.

[JerryNumbers]

I read the article, but I know not the men he spoke of.

But I do know how it is in business, & The Sword of the Lord is a business, & its in business to make a profit. And its can be easy to put the profit above all else. Many of the prominent preachers at Sword conferences are those that advertise in the Sword of the Lord, plus calls on the editor to preach at their churches. It may be easy for them to give those men a free pass on some issues, perhaps even critical issues. Not saying they are, as I stated above, I don't know nothing about these men.

[JerryNumbers]

My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.

Churches are falling at a fast rate of speed. When it gets a younger generation pastor, generals that brings in liberalism.

And I have noticed, many churches do not care where their pastor got their degree, just as long as they have one. And I know of 2 churches that have had a preacher preach in view of call on Sunday morning, them call him to be their pastor that very Sunday evening. Not knowing nothing about theses 4 pastors, never asking them one single question about their beliefs.

[LindaR]

Can you provide an article name and web location?

I received that article in my email yesterday, but it has not been posted to the Way of Life website yet. The name of the article is:
"WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING WITHIN A GENERATION", June 18, 2012. I would assume that it will be posted to the website within the next few days.

[1John2:15-17]

My husband got an article today, something about David Cloud complaining that all preachers associated with the Sword of the Lord are going to be the new "emerging church" and he called out everyone who preached there by name, one of whom, at least, we know personally as a separated, fundamental Baptist pastor who simply does not "choose camps" but holds his own tight line of separation between himself and the world, and has a very sound, strong IFB church.

It seems like David Cloud is getting more and more and MORE negative....does he even LIKE any pastors out there anymore? Seriously...I understand the need to warn your sheep about the wolves but some of his stuff today is nearing the hypercritical gossip that the New Testament condemns....????

My initial reaction was the same. He writes many good things, but this article set me back a little. There were 3 preachers who preached at the Lancaster Conference in 2011 that I've heard on many occasions, 2 of which are from good solid IFB churches back in OK (and one is president of a good IFB Bible college), the other in MI. These 3 men toe the line and preach hard, but sound doctrine (from what I can tell).

Since moving to NE Ohio a few months ago, I've met another preacher that he named in this article (who preached at the 2011 and 2012 conference), and I listen to his preaching often as I don't go to his church (wife and I go to one very close to home), but his preaching is solid as well.

It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that at least in this small area here, that "The Sword" and it's preachers, etc. is popular. I read their biweekly paper and have recently started to receive monthly messages (4 different preachers each month), and these span the ages (John Rice, Curtis Hutson, for example....also some current preachers).

I agree it is one thing to "warn the flock," but it almost seems to me (IMHO) that Mr. Cloud seems to be against almost every preacher, even those that have solid Bible based churches who may "preach" at a church that may not be quite as solid (if that makes sense).

I ask this next question in all humility.....(based on Mr. Cloud's continued "writings"), would there be ANY solid church that anyone of us could attend? I think we can all agree that there is no "perfect" church this side of heaven, but I have to wonder, if I/we used Mr. Cloud's writings as a measuring stick, would we find any church that would be the "right" one?

[1John2:15-17]

My response above was my first reaction to kitagirl's post. But now I justread through the email Cloud sent out regarding his new book on this subject. I see some of the names and compromises he mentions. As far as that goes, he is right.

I have enjoyed reading some of Paul Chappel's devotions for a few years, but have been seriously grieved the few times he quotes people like C.S. Lewis (an unsaved heretic) without warning against him or his writings. Something even as simple as, I don't agree with all his theology, but he made a good point when he said such and such, would have made a difference. Can't remember which church Reese was involved in (Reese Chronological Bible, which was mentioned on these boards recently, not saying Cloud mentioned him, but using him as an example), but that church does not give a warning against the biographies Reese puts out - and some are serious heretics, some even unsaved in certain cases, or at the very least someone we should be cautioned against. The music is a concern that has been creeping into churches more and more. I notice that Clarence Sexton is allowing preachers to come into his pulpit that should never be there. I love his messages, but these kind of things grieve my soul - and they are all aspects of how far does separation go.

So regardless of whether someone thinks Cloud goes too far in his warnings, these are things to be warned about. And many IFBs hate it when someone speaks against one of their churches or preachers - even if it is someone associated with Hyles, etc.

I don't know what the solution is. Being separated from all that is ungodly, worldly, doctrinally unsound, makes someone a serious loner and miserable. Been there. But the solution is not to refuse to separate and to let the world or compromise in. Being backslidden since losing my job at the Mission, I have let in some things that I should not have - partly to fit in with my brother, and partly because I just gave up fighting. BUT that is where the emptiness came in!! Now that God has given me a renewed purpose and opportunities for service, His direction to remove all these things is super clear. It is not me being hypercritical, but obedient.

So is brother Cloud going too far or being too much of a separatist? I don't know - but his warnings are worth heeding. How much they apply to individuals and their ministries or churches is something we would have to gauge for ourselves.

I replied to Kita's opening comment, then read your post. Your last statement may be an answer to my question.

[1John2:15-17]

Here's a copy/paste of the article referenced.

WHY THE SWORD OF THE LORD CROWD WILL BE EMERGING

WITHIN A GENERATION

JUNE 18, 2012

(David Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org)

The National Sword of the Lord conference is scheduled for July 23-27 at Gospel Light Baptist Church, Walkertown, North Carolina. The speakers are Marc Dalton, Joe Arthur, Frank Gagliano, Jeff Fugate, John Hamblin, Tim Rabon, Lou Rossi, Kevin Folger, Mark Campbell, Raymond Barber, Norris Belcher, Mike Norris, Bobby Roberson, Paul Chappell, R.B.Ouellette, and Mike Allison. The Sword director is Shelton Smith.

In the book Why Most Independent Baptist Churches Will Be Emerging, we give the following eight reasons why we are convinced that most IFBaptist churches will be well down the contemporary path within a generation:

The maligning of warning and reproof
Unquestioning loyalty to man
Following the crowd
Ignorance about important Issues
Soft separatism
Lack of serious discipleship
Carelessness about music
Quick Prayerism

These points apply to the churches that are most deeply influenced by and that most deeply resonate with the Sword of the Lord.

The bottom line is that these churches, for the most part, are simply not prepared to face the level of spiritual warfare that is raging against every Bible-believing church today.

The Sword has never renounced the cult of Jack Hyles. It has never warned of Lee Roberson’s soft and ineffectual separatism which resulted in the dramatic downfall of Highland Park Baptist Church. It has never lifted a voice against Paul Chappell’s dangerous, unscriptural adaptation of contemporary worship music. In fact, in the most idolatrous manner, the Sword does not allow any warnings to be issued in regard to its heroes. Any such warnings are mischaracterized and the warners maligned. There is not a more effective “good old boys” network anywhere. As for the heresy of Quick Prayerism, the Sword has been at the forefront of promoting the men who created it and exalting those who practice it.

WHY MOST INDEPENDENT BAPTIST CHURCHES WILL BE EMERGING is available as a free 65-page eBook from the Way of Life web site -- http://www.wayoflife.org/free_ebooks/

THE TWO JACKS: JACK HYLES AND JACK SCHAAP is also available as a free eBook. Few men have had a greater influence on the Sword than Jack Hyles.
H

[No Nicolaitans]

I think that perhaps it is Bro. Cloud's intention to warn God's people about certain "things" that are creeping into our churches. In doing so, he will name the names of those individuals who are allowing these "things" to creep in. Bro. Cloud has said time and time again that he has a "Warning Ministry". Part of that is to warn the leaders of churches and ministries when they begin to drift.

I don't believe that it is Bro. Cloud's intention to slander anyone; rather, he hopes that in pointing out error, those people involved will see the error and repent. I think the reason it seems that Bro. Cloud is "more negative" and pointing out more and more problems with people and ministries is because error is becoming rampant in churches, and more and more people are willing to accept it.

I don't agree with everything Bro. Cloud says; he's fallible just like any man, but I do find myself agreeing with him the majority of the time.

I don't even agree with myself all the time! :nuts:

[John81]

It's a fine line between warning about things and "cutting" those involved with the blade.

There is also that line we must all determine as to when an otherwise sound pastor/ministry has crossed over and should be viewed with caution or avoided.

The Sword of the Lord is a good example of this. They have a very loyal following, many of which will tend to put loyalty to their "camp" above cautions voiced by others.

Cloud is probably just pointing out some of what many of us have seen, and that is IFB no longer means what it once did and will only become more that way. At some point in the future, it's probable many who are IFB today will have to come up with another identifying name because there will be so many wayward or outright wrong IFB churches/ministries/pastors out there.

So, where do we draw the line? If an IFB church uses select contemporary music set to a piano is that something to separate over, something to denounce their entire ministry over? What about if they sometimes quote from those who were biblically unsound in some areas? Then that would lead to just how unsound could they have been and still be worth quoting. What about Spurgeon, Wesley, Luther, Graham, Hyles, Rogers, Smith?

Those were just a couple examples, we could add others.

The point is, are we able to come up with a clear line or will we find that in some matters it's more of a boundary area with a clear line not being seen until one gets to the other side of that boundary area?

[1John2:15-17]

I guess the only things we can do is to pray for true Biblical discernment.

[Guest]

I guess the only things we can do is to pray for true Biblical discernment.

I read most of the eBook you mentioned in the earlier post. I agree with No Nicolaitans this is meant to be a warning.

I wonder what Bro. Cloud would say about the FBF and the FBFI?

[1John2:15-17]

I read most of the eBook you mentioned in the earlier post. I agree with No Nicolaitans this is meant to be a warning.

I wonder what Bro. Cloud would say about the FBF and the FBFI?

Oh, I agree, just seems like what was said above, that more and more churches will continue to fall away and the number of "right" churches will diminish.

My old church back in SW MO quit "associating" with BBFI years ago because of their falling away. Even the "school" my former pastor went to apparently has been slipping away as well. He went there in the mid-80's, he and others that I've met that went to this particular school said that looking back they could see the "beginnings" of the falling away from Biblical standards and toward worldliness. My former pastor would not attend that school in its current state.

Although I like the preaching of one particular preacher up here in a big city IFB church, he has attended the Lancaster Leadership conference more than once to preach there, and also has some of Mr. Chappell's books on display in his church.