Majesty Music And Getty

[Seth Doty]

But you have to realize, the teenagers do! I know people who justify listening to CCM because they heard the song sung by someone else (that person could have not even known where it came from, and sang it innocently!)

I understand that to a point, but realistically people will justify just about anything they want to do in one way or another.

[brosmith]

Agreed - so when we look at fruit of the Gettys - the words of that hymn, is it a good, edifying Biblical hymn? If the words are good - as they are, the Gettys are not corrupt by that test Jesus has given us.

The fact that we agree that we do not like the style of singing & musical accompaniment may simply be a matter of our taste - (Pharisaical taste?)

I can only conclude from the above statements that:

#1 - You are trying to rationalize and justify the usage of CCM as being acceptable.

#2 - You are ignoring (or refusing to accept) the obvious teachings of the scriptures.

The Bible teaches us that truly spiritual people cannot bring forth carnality.

The usage of rock music proves that the Getty's are operating on a carnal basis and therefore anything that they produce is corrupted by their carnality. It does not matter if the words of their songs are "scriptural" or even scripture quotations. This is why the so-called "modern hymn movement" is so wrong. It is leading undiscerning people to swallow the devil's lies.

You can call it "Pharisaical taste" if you like, but you are feasting on carnality which leads to destruction. Edited June 1, 2012 by brosmith

[No Nicolaitans]

Okay...I broke down and watched the video...here's what I took away from it after watching it one time.

1. Couldn't tell you two words that were sung
2. Lots of heavy drum beats
3. Screaming guitar at times
4. They were putting on a show
5. The drummer wears a silly hat
   

As someone who came out of a rock-n-roll lifestyle (in a band, long hair, etc.), I think I have some insight into this. We are told in the Bible what proper music is...


Ephesians 5:19
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Does the song cause your heart to make melody...to the Lord, or does it cause your heart to make melody to your flesh? I believe that babes in Christ and carnal Christians confuse the two. They think if the song moves me, if it makes me feel good, if it makes me get emotional...then it must be good, and the Lord must be pleased. What makes us feel good is not an indicator that God approves of it. The heart is desperately wicked. From what I know, many CCM songs appeal to the emotions, and once the emotions get worked up, one can easily think they are singing to the Lord, when all they are doing is experiencing an emotional high. Putting "Christian" in front of something (CCM) doesn't mean it's Christian.

It doesn't matter if the words are biblical when the music is what's pushing the song. Goodness, even Satan knows the Bible, but I sure don't want him preaching (or singing) to me! There may be some CCM musicians who "believe" they are serving the Lord, but I venture to say the majority are in it for the notoriety, money, and adoration from fans.

I wonder how long they would stay in the music business if all they sang were doctrinally sound hymns from a hymnal accompanied by only a piano during their concerts? Not long, because their music appeals to the flesh. They would lose their fans, their recording contract, and their money.

If we are to "come out from among them and be ye separate", and we are to "love not the world, neither the things that are in the world", then that would include worldly sounding music. It's obvious that CCM is patterned after the world's music, and to use CCM's lyrics, but sing it "hymn style", is partaking of their product instead of separating from it.

[Covenanter]

I can only conclude from the above statements that:

#1 - You are trying to rationalize and justify the usage of CCM as being acceptable.

CCM is NOT acceptable - I would not attend their concerts, nor a church that features CCM worship.

#2 - You are ignoring (or refusing to accept) the obvious teachings of the scriptures.

The Bible teaches us that truly spiritual people cannot bring forth carnality.

The usage of rock music proves that the Getty's are operating on a carnal basis and therefore anything that they produce is corrupted by their carnality. It does not matter if the words of their songs are "scriptural" or even scripture quotations. This is why the so-called "modern hymn movement" is so wrong. It is leading undiscerning people to swallow the devil's lies.

There was a book of William Cowper's letters in my student digs 50 years ago. One was to his friend & fellow hymn writer John Newton. It concerned GF Handel & his oratorio "Messiah" & the acclaim he received for it. CCM - not by today's standards; the devil's lies - pure Scripture, selected to portray the Messiah from OT prophecy to last judgment. Sorry but I can't remember why they were so against such beautiful music. Perhaps it was too beautiful, & gratified the flesh? Or perhaps it was the adulation fora great composer, rather than for the music itself?

But we would not reject the text of the "Messiah" because it was set to the CCM of the day. Nor do we reject the hymns of Charles Wesley because he set his hymns to popular folk tunes of the day. We need to be sure our judgment is Scriptural & not prejudice. I have no complaints from my congregation because I don't use the percussion on my keyboard. I simply use the chapel organ register. People want to sing, & the music is there to guide their singing from the heart & keep them in tune. Some modern songs will stand the test of time, while most will (thankfully) pass quickly into oblivion.

I am happy to study the words against Scripture, strip out the CCM & lead the worship along the Scriptural guidelines:

18

And be n

ot

drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19

Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20

Giving thanks always for all things u

nt

o God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

21

Submitting yourselves one to an

ot

her in the fear of God.

15

And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16

Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one an

ot

her in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

You can call it "Pharisaical taste" if you like, but you are feasting on carnality which leads to destruction.
You are judging the Lord's servant from your own prejudice. I largely agree with you on CCM, but I trust I have sufficient spiritual discernment when I choose what we sing in worship.

[John81]

If we are going to apply these standards to modern hymns and songs then we must be consistent and apply them to all hymns and songs, which means many of those in our old hymnals must be rejected. Many of the hymns beloved today were penned by those holding to various views and positions, including docrtinal differences, that we disagree with. Many of the hymns were set to "worldly" music and used the contempory music of the day. Many of the hymns were denounced and rejected by the conservative Christians of their day. Fanny Crosby, for instance, not only wrote hymns, she also wrote wordly, carnal music, some of which was even used in burlesque shows.

We can't stand upon solid ground in our judgement of music unless we have one set of standards that is applied evenly with regards to all music, regardless of when it was written.

Interestingly, it's likely most of us would reject or at least not accept for ourselves, the way Jews played music in worship and how they danced before God, yet we see it accepted of God in Scripture.

Equally interesting is that conservative Christians 150, 300 or other years ago would view most of us as being too liberal, not walking close enough to the Lord, because of the music we ourselves do accept today.

Who is, or was, right? Are there objective standards we can agree upon or are most standards subjective or even arbitrary? Are we trying to hold to tight to our traditions, is that what those in the past were doing? Are we leaning more upon preference or the Bible?

Has there ever been a perfect Christian who wrote an acceptable song? In looking into the source of many hymns in our hymnals today I've found they were written by flawed Christians, many of which most of us would have separated from if we had been their contemporaries.

[Covenanter]

Has there ever been a perfect Christian who wrote an acceptable song? In looking into the source of many hymns in our hymnals today I've found they were written by flawed Christians, many of which most of us would have separated from if we had been their contemporaries.

Most of them were infant baptist.

[JerryNumbers]

All of us Christians are flawed, every single one, every single one that been born again, are flawed, that cannot be an excuse to accept anything, & everything.

That said, there many that will allow almost anything into one of Jesus' Churches.

As Seth said, "They will find a way to justify whatever it is they desire," & most of the time they will not be very nice to those that disagree with them.

[Invicta]

Most of them were infant baptist.

But as David Cloud says in one of his articles, singing their hymns is not going to lead you to becaome an infant baptist, but with the songs of charismatics like Townend and Kendrick, by singing their songs, we open the door to our young people bying their CDs, and then becoming attracted to that kind of worship. I say to our church that we would not have these people preach in our church, but by singing their songs we are letting them in by the back door, however sound that particualr song seems.

[John81]

Most IFBs would not agree with a great deal of what Luther, Wesley, Crosby and other hymn writers believed, practiced, promoted and taught, nor would they agree with their associations.

If a person is born again in Christ, and they write a biblically sound, Christ honouring song, and that song is played in church to the accompaniment of a piano, organ or perhaps in some cases an accoustic guitar, and the people sing it unto the Lord...

If the church teaches and preaches correctly, the members are not going to listen to a Christ-honouring song, played on piano, then go ask who the author of the song is, do research to see who has ever sang that song, find CDs with that song on it, listen to those CDs no matter the music with them and then decide this must be the right way to worship because they hear a song performed to different music on a CD.

On the other hand, if a church were to play a decent song with rock music, Southern Gospel, hip-hop or whatever in their church, then indeed it would be possible the members would see that sort of thing as right and acceptable, but it would be because the church played the music in that way and not another way.

There are some churches who play all their music in a bluegrass style, some in a Southern Gospel style (either old, modern or a combination of those styles), some churches play their music in a pop style, some with piano only, organ only, piano and organ only, accoustic guitar, partial band, entire band, choir, orchestra, etc. Each of these churches, whether they play Amazing Grace, I'll Fly Away, or a modern hymn, play those songs in the style of music that church chooses.

The pastor/church has the power, option and duty to select the music style and the songs. Some pastor/churches would absolutely reject an orchestra, having many complaints against such with many saying such is worldly and has no place in a church; yet others are accepting of orchestras and some even have them in their churches.

Is Amazing Grace or In Christ Alone determined to be good or bad by what music some play to those songs?

Either we come up with one set of standards for ALL songs and follow that, or we need to stick to taking care of the music in our own church and letting others take of the music in their own churches.

[No Nicolaitans]

I realize that I'm probably in the minority, and what I'm about to say will probably get me tarred and feathered...but...

I believe that too much emphasis is placed on music in churches. I'm not just singling out the use of CCM...I'm including what would be considered sound, fundamental music.

It has become a tradition...most churches in my area operate this way...

1. After Sunday School, gather in the sanctuary.
2. Welcome
3. Congregation sings a song (or two)
4. Announcements
5. Congregation sings a song (or instrumentalist plays a song) while receiving tithes/offerings
6. Choir sings anywhere from 4 to 6 songs
7. Soloist sings a song
8. Finally...the pastor preaches
   

...and in most cases, the song service lasts longer than the sermon.

I'm not advocating removing singing from church services, but I do believe less emphasis should be put on it. After all, we are told in the Bible that the songs can "teach and admonish" us...

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

The music should help prepare our hearts to receive God's word. I think one or two songs...sang to the Lord...and to give him glory...would be better than what I see in churches today. Most of what I see is self-glorifying.

It has gotten to the point that many churches are driven by the music program instead of God's word. The Bible is clear that preaching is the method that God has chosen to reach people...not the music program.

Romans 10:14-17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again, I'm not advocating removing music...I just think it should be de-emphasized. I think of this example...After Jesus and the disciples had finished the Lord's supper, we read this...

Matthew 26:30
And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Just one hymn... Edited June 2, 2012 by No Nicolaitans

[JerryNumbers]

No, tar, nor feathers, Yet, with that said, an emphasis must be placed on everything that takes place in one of Jesus Churches, for all of it must be in line with the Bible, & not violate the Holy Scriptures. That is everything that takes place in Jesus Churches is of the most importance. If you don't, them you will fill the church up with the world.

Now, those churches out there founded by & for man that do not teach truths, they can do as they please, for Christ in not the head of those churches.

[No Nicolaitans]

No, tar, nor feathers, Yet, with that said, an emphasis must be placed on everything that takes place in one of Jesus Churches, for all of it must be in line with the Bible, & not violate the Holy Scriptures. That is everything that takes place in Jesus Churches is of the most importance. If you don't, them you will fill the church up with the world.

Now, those churches out there founded by & for man that do not teach truths, they can do as they please, for Christ in not the head of those churches.

I understand what you're saying Bro. Jerry...and you're right. When I said that too much emphasis is put on the music, I just meant that in many churches, the music is more important to them than God's word.

[JerryNumbers]

I understand what you're saying Bro. Jerry...and you're right. When I said that too much emphasis is put on the music, I just meant that in many churches, the music is more important to them than God's word.

And your 100% right.

And where I've found this to be a problem is when a music lover is in charge of the music. And by no means do I mean its a problem with every music lover.

I knew one music lover, he probably could have sang with any popular group of Gospel singers if he had tried. A friend of mine once asked him why he did not try out for some of those singing groups. Accordingly he stated, "I'm where God wants me to be, I'm using my gift for the glory of God, I am not going to try & make a living off of what God has given me. Plus, most of those singing groups will sing for any church that invited them, no matter what that church teaches. To them its all about money, regardless of God's truth. I just can't take part in something like that."

And, there is much truth in what that man stated. I might say he was highly respect by his church family.

[No Nicolaitans]

Wow...that guy nailed it on the head! I don't even know him, but I respect him too!

[John81]

I realize that I'm probably in the minority, and what I'm about to say will probably get me tarred and feathered...but...

I believe that too much emphasis is placed on music in churches. I'm not just singling out the use of CCM...I'm including what would be considered sound, fundamental music.

It has become a tradition...most churches in my area operate this way...

1. After Sunday School, gather in the sanctuary.
2. Welcome
3. Congregation sings a song (or two)
4. Announcements
5. Congregation sings a song (or instrumentalist plays a song) while receiving tithes/offerings
6. Choir sings anywhere from 4 to 6 songs
7. Soloist sings a song
8. Finally...the pastor preaches
   

...and in most cases, the song service lasts longer than the sermon.

I'm not advocating removing singing from church services, but I do believe less emphasis should be put on it. After all, we are told in the Bible that the songs can "teach and admonish" us...

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

The music should help prepare our hearts to receive God's word. I think one or two songs...sang to the Lord...and to give him glory...would be better than what I see in churches today. Most of what I see is self-glorifying.

It has gotten to the point that many churches are driven by the music program instead of God's word. The Bible is clear that preaching is the method that God has chosen to reach people...not the music program.

Romans 10:14-17
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Again, I'm not advocating removing music...I just think it should be de-emphasized. I think of this example...After Jesus and the disciples had finished the Lord's supper, we read this...

Matthew 26:30
And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Just one hymn...

This is an important point. It's not only entertainment and watered down churches that put too much into music, but also some of the better churches too.

In our church we typically sing one or two songs after the opening prayer, a song will be played on the piano during offering (or a few times a year someone will sing a song at that time, such as on Mother's day), then we usually have one or two more songs between the offering and end of services, sometimes one before or after the Scripture reading which the sermon will come from and usually one at the end of the service which has been chosen to relate to the sermon that day.

At the same time, the church a block down sings several songs first thing, they have formed a youth band that sometimes plays, they sing a lot near the end of the service too.

Another church is almost all music. I've heard from a few folks in our church that have visited churches while on vacation only to discover that in those churches they have close to 45 minutes of music with only about 15 minutes of "preaching" (more of a feel good message).

Yes, we need to guard the music in our own churches and at the same time make sure the music never becomes the focus, doesn't take away time from the sermon, doesn't become the main drawing point, isn't more a matter of "fun" than of worship.