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Majesty Music And Getty

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... the subject matter is often very immortal.

 

Or ... immoral, as the case may be!  :)  

 

I agree, it should not be a free-for-all. First and foremost, the theology and doctrine should be carefully checked. The tunes should be singable, the melodies relatively easy to learn, in a key that will be within the range of most singers, and the music playable.

 

Do we always get it right? No, of course not, we're human and we make mistakes. If error is pointed out then it will be considered and a decision made prayerfully.

 

Here's a thought though - that set of tests above would rule out a number of hymns in the hymnal.

 

I am deeply moved in singing "And Can It Be", "There is a Fountain Filled With Blood", "Amazing Grace", "Holy, Holy, Holy", and a hymn we're singing this Sunday, "Christ Arose". I am also deeply moved in singing newer songs such as "What the Lord Has Done in Me", or "Jesus Paid it All".

 

I have often been moved to tears while singing of God's grace and mercy in Jesus covering my great debt of sin and propitiating God's wrath, which I am wholly unable to achieve through anything I do.

 

Now, if I am moved to tears by singing a hymn, or moved to tears by singing a newer song, it is a deep emotion. If God's grace and forgiveness and love and justice and wrath does not move you to tears at least occasionally, then I pray you will find yourself so moved.

 

What I read here is that some contributors seem so terrified of something new, they insulate themselves against it by convincing themselves they are right, everyone else is wrong, and they are right because they can line up their position with Scripture. Interesting that I use the same verses to support my position, it's just a matter of perspective, and context.

 

I'm off to practise the songs for this Lord's Day, which incidentally you can find here: The Gospel On Guitar's YouTube Playlist for March 31, 2013. By the way, we don't aim to slavishly copy the versions I link to, they are simply a general guide to help our singers and musicians get familiar with the songs during the week before they come to practise.

 

Regards,

 

Michael

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Or ... immoral, as the case may be!   :)

 

I agree, it should not be a free-for-all. First and foremost, the theology and doctrine should be carefully checked. The tunes should be singable, the melodies relatively easy to learn, in a key that will be within the range of most singers, and the music playable.

 

Do we always get it right? No, of course not, we're human and we make mistakes. If error is pointed out then it will be considered and a decision made prayerfully.

 

Here's a thought though - that set of tests above would rule out a number of hymns in the hymnal.

 

I am deeply moved in singing "And Can It Be", "There is a Fountain Filled With Blood", "Amazing Grace", "Holy, Holy, Holy", and a hymn we're singing this Sunday, "Christ Arose". I am also deeply moved in singing newer songs such as "What the Lord Has Done in Me", or "Jesus Paid it All".

 

I have often been moved to tears while singing of God's grace and mercy in Jesus covering my great debt of sin and propitiating God's wrath, which I am wholly unable to achieve through anything I do.

 

Now, if I am moved to tears by singing a hymn, or moved to tears by singing a newer song, it is a deep emotion. If God's grace and forgiveness and love and justice and wrath does not move you to tears at least occasionally, then I pray you will find yourself so moved.

 

What I read here is that some contributors seem so terrified of something new, they insulate themselves against it by convincing themselves they are right, everyone else is wrong, and they are right because they can line up their position with Scripture. Interesting that I use the same verses to support my position, it's just a matter of perspective, and context.

 

I'm off to practise the songs for this Lord's Day, which incidentally you can find here: The Gospel On Guitar's YouTube Playlist for March 31, 2013. By the way, we don't aim to slavishly copy the versions I link to, they are simply a general guide to help our singers and musicians get familiar with the songs during the week before they come to practise.

 

Regards,

 

Michael

 

Well I watched a bit of the first video and I saw no reverence for God there, just entertainment.  He also seemed to have forgotten the tune.

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Well I watched a bit of the first video and I saw no reverence for God there, just entertainment.  He also seemed to have forgotten the tune.

 

Ad hominem. Invalid. Petty. Childish.

 

David was criticised for dancing for joy. Go ahead and criticise God's people for not being perfect, but be careful how you deal with the bride of Christ. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

Or will you say anyone outside your tradition is not part of Christ's church, his bride? Brave. Very brave. Braver than I.

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Yes, one standard in one church, another standard in the next, different standards in other churches, different standards in the city, country, black churches, white churches, Korean churches, African churches, rich churches, poor churches, etc.

 

Even if we narrow it down to just Baptist churches there is no one set standard. I've been to Baptist churches with similar standards, but none the same, and often there can be a great deal of difference between standards from one Baptist church to the next.

 

The debate over Christians and music has gone on for centuries and no set standards have ever emerged. We see the same thing today, not only in Christianity overall, but even among IFBs.

 

 

Each true New Testament Church is Independent of all other true New Testament Churches. I'm sure out there scattered across the country there be those that uses the same standard. But they never try to Lord over, or force their ways, or tell other churches what to do.

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Well I watched a bit of the first video and I saw no reverence for God there, just entertainment.  He also seemed to have forgotten the tune.

 

While you're criticising God's people for not doing things as well as you would (please feel free to tell us about your amazing musical abilities, particularly in a live recording), you might like to correct your signature text. There is only one "r" in "Corinthians", and "stumblingblock" is two words, not one. 

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Jerry, your tactic of avoiding the question is stunning in its effectiveness.

 

Can you answer the question: what makes the Amish wrong, in their rejection of your level of worldliness, and what make your level of worldliness acceptable?

 

No, I answered your, you just do not like the answer. 

 

As for the Amish question, carry it to another topic, the topic here is: Replying to Majesty Music And Getty.

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Each true New Testament Church is Independent of all other true New Testament Churches. I'm sure out there scattered across the country there be those that uses the same standard. But they never try to Lord over, or force their ways, or tell other churches what to do.

 

.. and yet you've spent a lot of time here telling people like me we're doing it wrong. If you could, I'm pretty sure you would force your way on my church, and tell us what to do.

 

Inconsistent much?

 

 

 

No, I answered your, you just do not like the answer. 

 

As for the Amish question, carry it to another topic, the topic here is: Replying to Majesty Music And Getty.

 

No, that is exactly the point here. You have asserted that using music that doesn't line up with your standards is bringing worldliness into the church, which you have identified as the real issue at stake in this question of including Getty music in the Majesty hymnal.

 

Please define "worldliness", or admit you can't. If you can't, then stop pretending to know God's will in these things.

 

The Amish question relates DIRECTLY to this topic. If you (or anyone else supporting your position) cannot see that your inconsistent application of the concept of worldliness is tied directly to your personal social construct, to your traditions, and that what you see as "acceptable" would be condemned by others even more conservative than you (e.g., the Amish), then your opinion in the matter of acceptable music in the church universal can be summarily dismissed as being without foundation.

 

Feel free to impose your tradition and social construct within the walls of the local church where you are surrounded by like-minded people, but please try to see the point that not all people around the world worship God in the same way you do (and nor should they be expected to, nor be directed to).

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Doesn't music fall under the "let ever man be fully persuaded in his own mind" category? (Romans 14:5) Especially since music is fluid and always changing throughout history and the various cultures? 

 

 

And there it is.

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Doesn't music fall under the "let ever man be fully persuaded in his own mind" category? (Romans 14:5) Especially since music is fluid and always changing throughout history and the various cultures? 

That is one of the arguments, that much in the area of music falls under the category of liberty and personal preference. A problem comes up when there are those who shout that they know what is and isn't acceptable music, naturally they declare the music they use to be right and all other wrong. There wouldn't be a problem if they kept this view within their own church but it's common for these folks to publicly denounce the church down the street, churches on the other side of the country and even churches around the world who use different music or sing the same songs in different ways.

 

I've heard "Amazing Grace" sang in many different ways, played with many different musical instruments in many styles. Is only one of them right? Is the one I like best the right one and all others wrong? Could it be some of this is a matter of preference and not a matter of right and wrong?

 

No doubt there are some songs, some music, that seems to be clearly wrong. There are also some that seem clearly right. Then there are all the others that too many love to fight, argue and attack over.

 

From reading Scriptural examples of music and worship it's likely that if some saints of old showed up in our church playing that music and conducting themselves as they did in the Bible, they would be attacked and rejected by most church folks.

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I suggest not to reply to him or her which ever it is, in replies all he or she does is put down people that disagrees, & its clear about motives, as

 

And them there's the remarks they made to Invicta, calling him, Ad hominem. Invalid. Petty. Childish." . Actually it takes a childish person to make such comment to anyone, that is are truly conceded people.

 

 

 

 

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I suggest not to reply to him or her which ever it is, in replies all he or she does is put down people that disagrees, & its clear about motives, as

 

And them there's the remarks they made to Invicta, calling him, Ad hominem. Invalid. Petty. Childish." . Actually it takes a childish person to make such comment to anyone, that is are truly conceded people.

 

Thanks for pointing that out, Jerry.  I had missed that comment.  I have altered Corr. to Cor. but stumblingblock is one word in the KJV which is what I was quoting from.

 

I still believe the music is entertainment and not worship;

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Thanks for pointing that out, Jerry.  I had missed that comment.  I have altered Corr. to Cor. but stumblingblock is one word in the KJV which is what I was quoting from.

 

I still believe the music is entertainment and not worship;

 

Your welcome.

 

For many its is, yet not for all. Many churches are built around music & singing, not Christ. If used properly music & singing is OK.

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Not many females out there named Michael. I've made my motive clear, but here it is again for you: I'd simply like you to think about this differently, to see that not everyone worships God the way you do, nor must they.

 

It is eminently ironic that my response to Invicta has been described as "calling him" Ad hominen, invalid, petty, childish. "Ad hominem" refers to a logical fallacy in which the participant in an exchange focuses his argument on the person, rather than the topic at hand. I was saying Invicta's response was Ad hominem, and therefore invalid, petty and childish. I was not saying he was "ad hominem etc." That would be grammatically and logically incoherent.

 

I apologise if my use of the term was unclear.

 

For many its is, yet not for all. Many churches are built around music & singing, not Christ. If used properly music & singing is OK.

 

I agree that many churches are built on music and singing, and not on Christ, but can you see that if a church worships God in music and singing differently to your accepted standard, that it does not necessarily follow that the church is not built around Christ?

 

Today my church sang of The Wonderful Cross, about our inability to come Before the Throne of God Above without our names being graven on His hands, about how Nothing But The Blood of Jesus can atone for our sin, about how Jesus Paid It All, about how Christ Arose, conquering the grave, sin and death, and how we can rely on the biblical account of the resurrection to See What A Morning the disciples rose to on this the Third Day.

 

Jerry, you've said "if used properly music & singing is OK". Would you disagree with me saying that you believe "properly" means "the way Jerry's church does it"?

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... but stumblingblock is one word in the KJV which is what I was quoting from.

 

I still believe the music is entertainment and not worship;

 

I acknowledge my error in my previous comment and apologise for my hastiness in criticising your correct quotation of God's Word.

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In this world during this time period the only true churches of Jesus is local New Testament Churches. There are many fake, false teaching Churches. 

 

Jesus accepts the worship that comes from His local New Testament Churches.

 

 

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
 
And if used properly music & singing is accepted by Jesus, use improperly, its not. There is both music & songs that are unacceptable to Jesus. Some old ones, some new ones.
 
You show your self by your use of words, "Ad hominem. Invalid. Petty. Childish." But since I bought to everyone's attention that was nice, yet in the post to me you seem to be defending it, which is it? It can't be both.
 
Not many females out there named Michael, your right, not many, but yet there are some with that name, & in your pofile you choice not to mark if your male of female & or just omitted it for whatever reason, so I had no way of knowing.

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Hi Jerry, I apologised to Invicta for being hasty in criticising his quotation of Scripture. I explained to you my perspective that his comment against the video was ad hominem.

 

My gender has been specified as male for as long as my profile name has been changed to Micha-el from the original message board default of wish2bflying. Unlike some other people here, I am using my real name (and my real gender!). Just to clarify that, my real name of course being Michael, in my username I simply separate the two parts with a hyphen to emphasise the origin of the name.

 

Moving on ... 

 

Jerry, I'm going to ask you a direct question that has a Yes or No answer:

 

Do you feel a gladness in your heart when you sing hymns?

Edited by Micha-el

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Hi Jerry, I apologised to Invicta for being hasty in criticising his quotation of Scripture. I explained to you my perspective that his comment against the video was ad hominem.

My gender has been specified as male for as long as my profile name has been changed to Micha-el from the original message board default of wish2bflying. Unlike some other people here, I am using my real name (and my real gender!). Just to clarify that, my real name of course being Michael, in my username I simply separate the two parts with a hyphen to emphasise the origin of the name.

Moving on ...

Jerry, I'm going to ask you a direct question that has a Yes or No answer:

Do you feel a gladness in your heart when you sing hymns?



I have a question to you Michael.
Why, when I mentioned that your approach was similar to a previous poster called winegrowing, did you not at that stage point out that you were one and the same?

John quoted my post, so it was there twice?
Only now have you made this clear.

With all your accusations thrown around at other people here, maybe you should be a little more honest yourself.

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Hi Jerry, I apologised to Invicta for being hasty in criticising his quotation of Scripture. I explained to you my perspective that his comment against the video was ad hominem.

 

Actually it was not "to the man" but to the type of music.  

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I have a question to you Michael.
Why, when I mentioned that your approach was similar to a previous poster called winegrowing, did you not at that stage point out that you were one and the same?

John quoted my post, so it was there twice?
Only now have you made this clear.

With all your accusations thrown around at other people here, maybe you should be a little more honest yourself.

 

Well I wasn't trying to hide anything if that's what you're trying to say. On your profile, on the right hand side, there's a link that says "Display Name History". Mine's clearly there. And it's "wish2bflying", not "winegrowing".  :thumbdown:

 

I figured it was obvious who I was when I continued the topic, especially considering all the previous posts under wish2bflying changed to Micha-el. I can see I assumed too much. When you first register, it uses whatever name you give it initially until you fill in your profile and choose what you want to put in there. When I did that, and put in the avatar graphic (eagle, flying ... get it?), it didn't occur to me to notify everyone. I figured anyone who cared that much could check my profile and look at the "display name history".

 

Sorry if that was confusing you. No shenanigans were deliberately entered into.

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Well I watched a bit of the first video and I saw no reverence for God there, just entertainment.  He also seemed to have forgotten the tune.

 

Please explain how your comment about him seeming to have forgotten the tune was not an insult to his singing, and how it was relevant to the discussion at hand.

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Please explain how your comment about him seeming to have forgotten the tune was not an insult to his singing, and how it was relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

It wasn't as I remembered the tune.

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