It's 1775, Are You A Loyalist Or A Patriot?

[Anon]

Well obviously, if I moved to America, I'm probably NOT a loyalist...otherwise I'd have stayed in England....

[rancher824]

I think, this is 'my humble opinion only,' what Americans are so passionate about is position, power, money, & everything being put in their favor so they can make a bundle of money, and they is why political topics gets so heated.

Even in the millennium when Jesus will be ruling, many will be very unhappy and think that Jesus is ruling unfairly. People do not want peace, what they want is for everything to be placed in their favor, so they can make a bundle of money and fulfill their wants.

Right now in America, the wealthy, and the wealthy companies are getting things in their favor by buying favors from our congressmen. Our congressmen will help those that can and will help them. Our political system is corrupt through and though, and it will just wax worse.

One more thing, its been quite a while since America went to war defending their country. Rightly when Pearl harbor was attacked was the last time.

On 9/11, we really did not have a country to attack, yet of course we went to war in Iraq, I think in the future that will be looked on as the wrong thing to have done. Probably more lives were lost by going to war that what would have been lost if we left them alone.

I have no problem with defending our country when attack, I do have a big problem with being the aggressor, starting a war, we know why wars are started, I've posted verses on that subject, and we know God is always right.

But are you not just as guilty in the statement above and others against our leaders (dignities) as if you had gone to war Biblically speaking.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
You more than once have told how that no one in our government can be trusted. Is that not speaking evil of them???

[John81]

Well obviously, if I moved to America, I'm probably NOT a loyalist...otherwise I'd have stayed in England....

America was a part of England. While many originally came to the English colonies in America for various religious reasons, many who were in the English colonies in America by the time of the Revolution had migrated looking for opportunities to live a more prosperous life. For the most part, those who migrated to the English colinies in America were not against the English crown.

[John81]

But are you not just as guilty in the statement above and others against our leaders (dignities) as if you had gone to war Biblically speaking.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
You more than once have told how that no one in our government can be trusted. Is that not speaking evil of them???

There is a difference between speaking the truth (such as when John the Baptist spoke out against Herod having his brothers wife) and speaking evil things (such as those who call for rebellion or death towards governmental leaders).

[rancher824]

There is a difference between speaking the truth (such as when John the Baptist spoke out against Herod having his brothers wife) and speaking evil things (such as those who call for rebellion or death towards governmental leaders).

Actually John was speaking to Herod, not speaking out against!!!!

edited to add: Besides the statement Through and through along with other things that have been said lately at least seem to me as saying every member of our government is evil. Selling out to the rich. With that, if even 1 congressman or 1 representative, or 1 Governor is a good man then it is speaking evil of dignities to pile them in with the rest. Now if it was an actual instant that was being pointed out, I might could agree. But generic statements about all is speaking evil! Edited September 8, 2011 by rancher824

[John81]

Actually John was speaking to Herod, not speaking out against!!!!

edited to add: Besides the statement Through and through along with other things that have been said lately at least seem to me as saying every member of our government is evil. Selling out to the rich. With that, if even 1 congressman or 1 representative, or 1 Governor is a good man then it is speaking evil of dignities to pile them in with the rest. Now if it was an actual instant that was being pointed out, I might could agree. But generic statements about all is speaking evil!

From what I understand, John spoke out publicly against what Herod was doing.

I agree that blanket statements are most often not accurate and should be avoided as they could speak evil of one who is not.

[JerryNumbers]

But are you not just as guilty in the statement above and others against our leaders (dignities) as if you had gone to war Biblically speaking.

2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
You more than once have told how that no one in our government can be trusted. Is that not speaking evil of them???

You judge that which you know not!


You can't trust the goverment, but that does not keep a person from obeying God on this matter.

1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
I pray for our goverment, & do not to make waves, & I do not yoke together with my goverment so that:

2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

I can be the best soldier I can for my Lord.

Are maybe its you don't understand.

[Wilchbla]

Actually, the majority of colonists where neither loyalist or patriot. I would have probably been the same. To busy trying to survive and feed my family to worry about anything else. Just leave us alone and in piece.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Wilchbla

[John81]

Actually, the majority of colonists where neither loyalist or patriot. I would have probably been the same. To busy trying to survive and feed my family to worry about anything else. Just leave us alone and in piece.

Most historians seem to think it was split in about thirds. With a third standing true to the king, a third supporting the rebellion, and a third trying to stay out of it. What we have in this situation is a third of the population pushing their will upon the other two-thirds.

[rancher824]

You judge that which you know not!


You can't trust the goverment, but that does not keep a person from obeying God on this matter.

1Ti 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
I pray for our goverment, & do not to make waves, & I do not yoke together with my goverment so that:

2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

I can be the best soldier I can for my Lord.

Are maybe its you don't understand.

What I "know" and what I "understand" is that the Bible says not to speak evil of dignities!!! Jesus said that hating your brother without a cause was something that would bring you before judgement (Matt 5:22). I, myself know two Oklahoma senators that I believe do everything they can for a proper Govt. Do I believe either of them is perfect?? No, neither one is Jesus. But they are good men. No they are not IFB. But again they are good men. To make statements such as "you cannot trust govt" along with others you have made lately lumps them with those who are not good men. It is speaking evil of them which the Bible forbids!! He said that lusting after a women made you guilty of adultry in your heart. God looks on the heart!!!! When you make blanket statements about the government you are speaking evil of dignities! From what I understand I believe that would make you as guilty before God as what you say of George Washington and those with him!!! It amazes me how many christians will preach hard that those around them are so sinful, and yet when scripture is put against them their responce is "you don't understand." I guess what that means is that everyone else needs to follow God to the letter, but their situation is something God had not thought of when he wrote the Bible and super seeds it because of such.

I also want to look close at this statement

I pray for our goverment, & do not to make waves, & I do not yoke together with my goverment so that:

2Ti 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
2Ti 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will) but from this statement along with others you and John have made I wonder how can you vote? I mean if a man does not hold strong IFB values and lives his life the way a good IFB would you should not vote for him. I believe it was John who said that if a man or woman listened to country music they should not be voted for. But a Good IFB living the way a good IFB should and not entangling himself with the affairs of this life should not yoke himself to the govt. He should not run for office. So if a man runs he is not a good IFB and you should not vote for someome who is not a living like a good IFB so you should not vote!!! It is a crazy circle!!!

[heartstrings]

They defied, disobeyed, denounced and defected-from the governemt (hey that was 4 D's)
Hebrews 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

She committed treason against her government.........
Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

[JerryNumbers]

What I "know" and what I "understand" is that the Bible says not to speak evil of dignities!!! Jesus said that hating your brother without a cause was something that would bring you before judgement (Matt 5:22). I, myself know two Oklahoma senators that I believe do everything they can for a proper Govt. Do I believe either of them is perfect?? No, neither one is Jesus. But they are good men. No they are not IFB. But again they are good men. To make statements such as "you cannot trust govt" along with others you have made lately lumps them with those who are not good men. It is speaking evil of them which the Bible forbids!! He said that lusting after a women made you guilty of adultry in your heart. God looks on the heart!!!! When you make blanket statements about the government you are speaking evil of dignities! From what I understand I believe that would make you as guilty before God as what you say of George Washington and those with him!!! It amazes me how many christians will preach hard that those around them are so sinful, and yet when scripture is put against them their responce is "you don't understand." I guess what that means is that everyone else needs to follow God to the letter, but their situation is something God had not thought of when he wrote the Bible and super seeds it because of such.

I also want to look close at this statement

Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will) but from this statement along with others you and John have made I wonder how can you vote? I mean if a man does not hold strong IFB values and lives his life the way a good IFB would you should not vote for him. I believe it was John who said that if a man or woman listened to country music they should not be voted for. But a Good IFB living the way a good IFB should and not entangling himself with the affairs of this life should not yoke himself to the govt. He should not run for office. So if a man runs he is not a good IFB and you should not vote for someome who is not a living like a good IFB so you should not vote!!! It is a crazy circle!!!

I don't, that is affairs of this life, care of this world, this is not my home, my hone is in heaven. And my purpose having been saved is not the affairs of this life, cares of this world, but the work that I've been ordained to do by God when I was saved. Be careful, the affairs of this life, care of this world, will choke out Word.

Mt 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mr 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

I can't be a good solider for my Lord if I'm involved in the affairs of this world, the cares of this world, the 2 do not go hand in hand.

2Ti 2:4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

I might add, in Jesus' day many thought He was going to establish His kingdom on this earth, they were ready to fight for Him to thier death in order to place Him in the leadership position of this world. They soon found out that was not Jesus' plan, yet in the Lord's day professing Christians gets all wrapped up in the affairs of this world, cares of this world, to the point they trust man more than God.

[John81]

They defied, disobeyed, denounced and defected-from the governemt (hey that was 4 D's)
Hebrews 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

She committed treason against her government.........
Hebrews 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

Read closer. The parents of Moses didn't rebel against the government. They refused to comply with one ungodly law.

In Rahab's case, she was somehow aware her people were under judgement from God and that God had ordained the land be given to Israel. That is a unique case and and is uncomparable to that which is given to Christians to live by.

[HappyChristian]

Sorry, John, but refusing to comply with a law is not an exception...no exception clause, remember? Moses' parents most certainly did defy their ruler (and rightly so!) and his law. I find it interesting that OT examples are good examples to use - unless they point to the error of what someone is saying....

"...not fearing the wrath of the king..." Sounds kinda like our forefathers...

[John81]

Sorry, John, but refusing to comply with a law is not an exception...no exception clause, remember? Moses' parents most certainly did defy their ruler (and rightly so!) and his law. I find it interesting that OT examples are good examples to use - unless they point to the error of what someone is saying....

"...not fearing the wrath of the king..." Sounds kinda like our forefathers...

They did not rebel against the government. The New Covenant explains well that if man orders something that goes against God, we are to obey God, but in other matters we are to be subject to the government. Paul, John and Peter give examples of this.

We are never to be afraid to obey God, whether that means refusing to commit murder or submitting ourselves to governmental authority not ordering us to violate a clear command from God.