Conservatism versus hyper-conservatism?

heartstrings · August 8, 2011

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

The only way the World can see the Light of God, is how we look and behave.. What are we letting shine?

farouk · August 8, 2011

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

The only way the World can see the Light of God, is how we look and behave.. What are we letting shine?

heartstrings:

Christ shining through us is what it's all about, yes.

Blessings.

John81 · August 9, 2011

heartstrings:

Christ shining through us is what it's all about, yes.

Blessings.

Part of the way Christ shines through His people is by their obedience to His Word; which means not dressing immodestly or in a worldly manner regardless of our own personal preferences or views. Paul wouldn't even eat meat if he knew it might harm the cause of Christ.

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily , and follow me." Luke 9:23

A true follower of Christ is one who DENIES HIMSELF and takes up his cross DAILY. That is total submission to Christ as Lord of all our lives every day, forever.

farouk · August 9, 2011

Part of the way Christ shines through His people is by their obedience to His Word; which means not dressing immodestly or in a worldly manner regardless of our own personal preferences or views. Paul wouldn't even eat meat if he knew it might harm the cause of Christ.

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily , and follow me." Luke 9:23

A true follower of Christ is one who DENIES HIMSELF and takes up his cross DAILY. That is total submission to Christ as Lord of all our lives every day, forever.

Yes, Paul wouldn't eat meat if he thought it might harm the cause of Christ.

He also wrote Romans 14, the great charter of Christian liberty.

So he wouldn't have gone around arbitrarily castigating people because they wore or did things that he, or anyone else, might have subjectively disliked. Some such things have been mentioned on this thread.

1John2:15-17 · August 9, 2011

Part of the way Christ shines through His people is by their obedience to His Word; which means not dressing immodestly or in a worldly manner regardless of our own personal preferences or views. Paul wouldn't even eat meat if he knew it might harm the cause of Christ.

"And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily , and follow me." Luke 9:23

A true follower of Christ is one who DENIES HIMSELF and takes up his cross DAILY. That is total submission to Christ as Lord of all our lives every day, forever.

:amen:

John81 · August 9, 2011

Yes, Paul wouldn't eat meat if he thought it might harm the cause of Christ.

He also wrote Romans 14, the great charter of Christian liberty.

So he wouldn't have gone around arbitrarily castigating people because they wore or did things that he, or anyone else, might have subjectively disliked. Some such things have been mentioned on this thread.

You seem to love Romans 14 while wanting to ignore it's true meaning and the rest of Scripture. Our liberty is never to be used as a license to sin. We are always to cast aside our liberty for the sake of Christ and for the sake of the benefit of winning any to Christ, not being a possible stumbling block, etc.

It is you who are calling so many things "arbitrary" when so much Scripture has been put forth dealing with the many things you call "arbitrary" that clearly show anyone truly following Christ would not be involved in such. You seem to promote an "anything goes" sort of christianity, when true Christianity calls for "everything goes" for the sake of Christ.

There is nothing "arbitrary" about the command to dress modestly, to avoid the appearance of evil, to give up anything for the sake of Christ, to deny ourselves for Christ and for the sake of being a good witness to the world and for the sake of those who look at us.

So many of the things you promote as being a matter of liberty are the very things Muslims, Mormons and millions of others point to as reasons Christianity can't be real, is immoral, ungodly and not something for them. When they look at most Christians they see the world, not Christ and this is to our shame and it clearly shows the lack of true followers of Christ among the millions who profess to be Christians.

farouk · August 9, 2011

You seem to love Romans 14 while wanting to ignore it's true meaning and the rest of Scripture. Our liberty is never to be used as a license to sin. We are always to cast aside our liberty for the sake of Christ and for the sake of the benefit of winning any to Christ, not being a possible stumbling block, etc.

It is you who are calling so many things "arbitrary" when so much Scripture has been put forth dealing with the many things you call "arbitrary" that clearly show anyone truly following Christ would not be involved in such. You seem to promote an "anything goes" sort of christianity, when true Christianity calls for "everything goes" for the sake of Christ.

There is nothing "arbitrary" about the command to dress modestly, to avoid the appearance of evil, to give up anything for the sake of Christ, to deny ourselves for Christ and for the sake of being a good witness to the world and for the sake of those who look at us.

So many of the things you promote as being a matter of liberty are the very things Muslims, Mormons and millions of others point to as reasons Christianity can't be real, is immoral, ungodly and not something for them. When they look at most Christians they see the world, not Christ and this is to our shame and it clearly shows the lack of true followers of Christ among the millions who profess to be Christians.

John81:

Wrong. I haven't promoted immodesty at all, that I can see.

I strongly believe in it. What I don't do is ignore 'let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind', in Romans 14. There are some things which are neither Biblical nor unbiblical, and it's not our task to go policing other Christians on the many, many things that they may feel free to do, whether or not we might do them.

John81 · August 9, 2011

Wrong. I haven't promoted immodesty at all, that I can see.

I strongly believe in it. What I don't do is ignore 'let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind', in Romans 14. There are some things which are neither Biblical nor unbiblical, and it's not our task to go policing other Christians on the many, many things that they may feel free to do, whether or not we might do them.

You have said there is nothing wrong with women wearing immodest swimsuits in the company of those not her husband. That is promoting immodesty.

The verse regarding being persuaded in ones own mind is referring to a situation where one isn't sure if something is right or wrong. If they proceed with doing something even though they are not sure, they sin. This verse isn't speaking to issue Scripture addresses and saying one can decide for themselves whether they want to follow it or not.

Rather than continuing to look for loopholes in order to engage in the things of the world or act like the world, we should all be looking at Scripture to see how much more like Christ we can be, how much more separate from the world we can be, how much more our lives can fully be His and not our own or the worlds.

Your eyes seem set on the temporal when our focus should be on the eternal.

rancher824 · August 9, 2011

There is nothing "arbitrary" about the command to dress modestly, to avoid the appearance of evil, to give up anything for the sake of Christ, to deny ourselves for Christ and for the sake of being a good witness to the world and for the sake of those who look at us.

So many of the things you promote as being a matter of liberty are the very things Muslims, Mormons and millions of others point to as reasons Christianity can't be real, is immoral, ungodly and not something for them. When they look at most Christians they see the world, not Christ and this is to our shame and it clearly shows the lack of true followers of Christ among the millions who profess to be Christians.

Rather than continuing to look for loopholes in order to engage in the things of the world or act like the world, we should all be looking at Scripture to see how much more like Christ we can be, how much more separate from the world we can be, how much more our lives can fully be His and not our own or the worlds.

Your eyes seem set on the temporal when our focus should be on the eternal.

This is exactly my point. How much more would we show our faith in Christ than to strive to put the things the world has adopted away and dress like He dressed? To separate, not only in actions, but dress where that when we walk down the street everyone says "there comes a Christian, no one else dresses like Christ today!!!" Are we not looking for a loop hole by ignoring the fact that all through scripture it is plain the dress from the garden on was a robe or coat. Nowhere is a man seen wearing pants! Should we not get back to the scriptural model of clothing?

Miss Linda · August 9, 2011

< . . . snip . . . >

There is nothing "arbitrary" about the command to dress modestly, to avoid the appearance of evil, to give up anything for the sake of Christ, to deny ourselves for Christ and for the sake of being a good witness to the world and for the sake of those who look at us.

So many of the things you promote as being a matter of liberty are the very things Muslims, Mormons and millions of others point to as reasons Christianity can't be real, is immoral, ungodly and not something for them. When they look at most Christians they see the world, not Christ and this is to our shame and it clearly shows the lack of true followers of Christ among the millions who profess to be Christians.

Your comment here touched on an issue that I encounter periodically. People will occasionally ask me whether I am Muslim or Mormon or Orthodox Jewish because I wear long skirts, long sleeves, and blouses with necklines above the collarbone. Most recently, I was dining at a restaurant with a small group of ladies from church and we were asked by the waiter whether we were Mormons. When we said no he immediately asked whether we were Orthodox Jews. We replied no again and one of the ladies said we are Christians. He looked genuinely surprised. He actually said, "I wouldn't have guessed that, you are all dressed so modestly and act so quiet and polite." *sigh*

I've been asked similar questions in the office where I work. When I first started working at my current job people asked me whether I was a Mormon, a Muslim or an Orthodox Jew because of my modest dress and my eschewing secular entertainment. The last thing they thought was that I might be a Christian. It genuinely saddens me to think that non-Christian belief systems such as Muslims, Mormons and Jews are easily identifiable by their "set apart" lifestyle and modest dress but as Brother John has pointed out, Christians are not usually identified in this way.

It does seem to me that Christians sometimes try to blend in as much as possible, not to be too different, too set apart. There is a danger in blurring those lines, not just for ourselves but also for those who make judgments on our faith based on their observation of our conduct. I do not think we should be asking how little we can do to follow Christ, but how much.

Covenanter · August 9, 2011

Are we not looking for a loop hole by ignoring the fact that all through scripture it is plain the dress from the garden on was a robe or coat. Nowhere is a man seen wearing pants! Should we not get back to the scriptural model of clothing?

In what way, then, should men & women dress differently...?

farouk · August 9, 2011

I think one or two points can be made.

Reference has been made to another thread (and, please, let's not turn this into another swimsuit thread) and I think comments made have been blown up out of proportion, using the m-word in a rather sweeping fashion.

I do certainly believe in the importance of the m-word: modesty. But remember, it can also be used as an alternative to 'eccentric'. This is not to say that people who don't look eccentric are therefore immodest. It would be dishonest to twist the word 'eccentric' to try to make it mean that anyone who doesn't look eccentric must be, by definition, immodest. Maybe some ppl are not exactly saying this.

rancher824 · August 9, 2011

Your comment here touched on an issue that I encounter periodically. People will occasionally ask me whether I am Muslim or Mormon or Orthodox Jewish because I wear long skirts, long sleeves, and blouses with necklines above the collarbone. Most recently, I was dining at a restaurant with a small group of ladies from church and we were asked by the waiter whether we were Mormons. When we said no he immediately asked whether we were Orthodox Jews. We replied no again and one of the ladies said we are Christians. He looked genuinely surprised. He actually said, "I wouldn't have guessed that, you are all dressed so modestly and act so quiet and polite." *sigh*

I've been asked similar questions in the office where I work. When I first started working at my current job people asked me whether I was a Mormon, a Muslim or an Orthodox Jew because of my modest dress and my eschewing secular entertainment. The last thing they thought was that I might be a Christian. It genuinely saddens me to think that non-Christian belief systems such as Muslims, Mormons and Jews are easily identifiable by their "set apart" lifestyle and modest dress but as Brother John has pointed out, Christians are not usually identified in this way.

It does seem to me that Christians sometimes try to blend in as much as possible, not to be too different, too set apart. There is a danger in blurring those lines, not just for ourselves but also for those who make judgments on our faith based on their observation of our conduct. I do not think we should be asking how little we can do to follow Christ, but how much.

This is how the ladies can stand apart, but how about us men? We dress like the world. Yes I know we do not go around with our shirts unbuttoned, beer or girly pictures on them or the such, but there are many in the world that go around the same. Our jeans and suits are just like the worlds. When in a business group one does not stand out from the other. We dress just like the men of the world.

rancher824 · August 9, 2011

In what way, then, should men & women dress differently...?

I have been told about a missionary (it has been a while so I am saying what I remember, but I have the gist correct) who was over in the mideast. He was in a dinner of some sort when a man had something (I think it was coffee) spilled all over his robe. Someone quickly ran and got him another robe. This angered the man because they had gotten him a women's robe. The missionary said he did not know enough about their dress to tell it was a women's robe, but the man knew at a glance. My point is that there are ways of making a man's rob and a women's robe. If not then how is it the Jews all wore robes (I have only heard of one man argue that they did not). We in today's world have put away the knowledge of how God originally clothed man and women (after the fall of coarse) to be willing to see that our way is not how God decide.We have decided our way is best and do not want to consider putting what we are comfortable with aside to follow Him.