Hermeneutics

[coc333]

Once again, I am not certain if this is the correct place to start this thread; if not, I trust it can be moved.

At the congregation I have begun a class on hermeneutics. I am interrested in your thoughts on the subject. Specifically, I would like to know the teachings of the IFB on this.

Of course, much can be said about this subject, but I am also interrested in your take on "silence of the scripture," i.e. is silence of the scripture binding or does it grant "freedom?" That is, if the Bible is silent about something am I then at liberty to do it or am I bound not to do it?

[Invicta]

Once again, I am not certain if this is the correct place to start this thread; if not, I trust it can be moved.

At the congregation I have begun a class on hermeneutics. I am interrested in your thoughts on the subject. Specifically, I would like to know the teachings of the IFB on this.

Of course, much can be said about this subject, but I am also interrested in your take on "silence of the scripture," i.e. is silence of the scripture binding or does it grant "freedom?" That is, if the Bible is silent about something am I then at liberty to do it or am I bound not to do it?

Silence of scripture?

I can remember speaking to my dad about a book I had read which said that the scripture was silent on the subject he was broaching. (I can't remember what it was.) My dad said "It is a very dangerous doctrine that if the scripture is silent on a subject, you can teach what you want." Edited January 8, 2011 by Invicta

[Soj]

Often things people claim scripture is silent about are covered in principle throughout scripture, there doesn't neccessarily have to be a "thou shalt not" verse to tell us God's will on a matter. e.g. scripture doesn't directly say it's wrong for a Christian to smoke, yet scripture teaches the Christian's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and we are not to defile it.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Soj

[coc333]

Silence of scripture?

I can remember speaking to my dad about a book I had read which said that the scripture was silent on the subject he was broaching. (I can't remember what it was.) My dad said "It is a very dangerous doctrine that if the scripture is silent on a subject, you can teach what you want."

"Silence of the scripture" - when the scripture is silent on a specific issue. For example....the New Testament (nor the Old for that matter) does not say "thou shalt not use mechanical instruments" but it does teach through silence of the scriptures that we are not to use them. Allow me to explain. Eph 5:19; Col 3:16 teach us that we are to sing. God tells us that we are to sing but does not speak specifically (in NT) about the use of mechanicle instruments. It is silent. Some argue that His silence allows us to then use them if we want. The Bible teaches that when scripture is silent, we are not free to decide. (Heb 7:12-14)

The Hebrew writer used the example of Christ as the Christian's High Priest and His being from the tribe of Judah which Moses did not speak about or was silent on. Moses never said anything about the Tribe of Judah in relation to the priesthood but simple said that the Priesthood was to come from the tribe of Levi. God was silent when it came to Judah and He forbade it through His silence.

I hope that I have answered your question.

I agree that it is dangerous to assume that silence of the scriptures allow one to teach whatever one wishes.

[coc333]

Often things people claim scripture is silent about are covered in principle throughout scripture, there doesn't neccessarily have to be a "thou shalt not" verse to tell us God's will on a matter. e.g. scripture does directly say it's wrong for a Christian to smoke, yet scripture teaches the Christian's body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and we are not to defile it.

You are correct that the scripture does not have to say "thou shalt" or "thou shalt not" in order to teach what God desires. We might have an example which teaches or a necessary inference which teaches us rather than a direct command but sometimes the scripture is silent and even in that it teaches us much.

[Soj]

I really do believe that if the scripture is silent on a matter then God simply doesn't want us to know about it. But before a man claims the Bible is silent on something he'd better have read and studied it MANY times over MANY years first.

"Silence of the scripture" - when the scripture is silent on a specific issue. For example....the New Testament (nor the Old for that matter) does not say "thou shalt not use mechanical instruments" but it does teach through silence of the scriptures that we are not to use them. Allow me to explain. Eph 5:19; Col 3:16 teach us that we are to sing. God tells us that we are to sing but does not speak specifically (in NT) about the use of mechanicle instruments. It is silent.

As I said previously, there are principles throughout scripture that reveal God's will. Romans 15:4 says "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." We know from the Old Testament that God's people used instruments to worship Him with, such as the harp, organ, tabret & timbrel (small drums, tambourine), pipe, psaltery, etc.

Psalms 92:2 To shew forth thy lovingkindness in the morning, and thy faithfulness every night, 3 Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.


The principle here is that God accepted music played on such instruments in the Old Testament and therefore there is no reason to think He doesn't accept it in the NT. There's another precept found at the end of Psalm 92:3, the phrase "with a solemn sound" , that's how they should be played to the Lord!

The "mechanical" argument is moot as that is a modern invention that wasn't around in Biblical times, you may as well say that because the scripture is silent on any modern invention then it is wrong for the Christian, which is silly.

[Bro Jim]

If we take scripture to determine scripture, KJB, not Greek, or Hebrew, or MVs, the priesthood existed before the nation of Israel. Using the "Greek or Hebrew" is just using another version.

Genesis 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Silence of the scripture gives us NO freedom to decide to do whatever. We are guided by all the scripture has to say. We can nit-pick either way and take scripture and "prove " anything we want. The term "Whole counsel of God" pretty much sums it up.

I like this old saying, "When in doubt, don't"

Just a simple question, does your church use a pitch pipe to help start the singing? I have heard that discussion in the church of Christ circles. Pitch pipe okay or not?

[John81]

If we take scripture to determine scripture, KJB, not Greek, or Hebrew, or MVs, the priesthood existed before the nation of Israel. Using the "Greek or Hebrew" is just using another version.

Genesis 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Silence of the scripture gives us NO freedom to decide to do whatever. We are guided by all the scripture has to say. We can nit-pick either way and take scripture and "prove " anything we want. The term "Whole counsel of God" pretty much sums it up.

I like this old saying, "When in doubt, don't"

Just a simple question, does your church use a pitch pipe to help start the singing? I have heard that discussion in the church of Christ circles. Pitch pipe okay or not?

:amen:

[coc333]

I really do believe that if the scripture is silent on a matter then God simply doesn't want us to know about it. But before a man claims the Bible is silent on something he'd better have read and studied it MANY times over MANY years first.



As I said previously, there are principles throughout scripture that reveal God's will. Romans 15:4 says "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." We know from the Old Testament that God's people used instruments to worship Him with, such as the harp, organ, tabret & timbrel (small drums, tambourine), pipe, psaltery, etc.

Psalms 92:2 To shew forth thy lovingkindness in the morning, and thy faithfulness every night, 3 Upon an instrument of ten strings, and upon the psaltery; upon the harp with a solemn sound.


The principle here is that God accepted music played on such instruments in the Old Testament and therefore there is no reason to think He doesn't accept it in the NT. There's another precept found at the end of Psalm 92:3, the phrase "with a solemn sound" , that's how they should be played to the Lord!

The "mechanical" argument is moot as that is a modern invention that wasn't around in Biblical times, you may as well say that because the scripture is silent on any modern invention then it is wrong for the Christian, which is silly.

Soj,

As this thread is dealing with "Hermeneutics" and not the use of "mechanicle" instruments, I suggest we stick with the topic. If you desire to discuss "mechanicle" intruments, feel free to start a thread on that and I will be glad to there discuss the issue further. The only reason I brought it up is because it is a good example dealing with silence of the scripture.

As far as hermenutics, what are your thoughts on properly "deviding" the scriptures? That is, do you believe that we are still under the OT? Certainly it is there for our learning (Rom 15:4), but is it still binding upon us or was it nailed to the cross (Col 2:14)?

[coc333]

If we take scripture to determine scripture, KJB, not Greek, or Hebrew, or MVs, the priesthood existed before the nation of Israel. Using the "Greek or Hebrew" is just using another version.

Genesis 14:18-20 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Hebrews 5:6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Silence of the scripture gives us NO freedom to decide to do whatever. We are guided by all the scripture has to say. We can nit-pick either way and take scripture and "prove " anything we want. The term "Whole counsel of God" pretty much sums it up.

I like this old saying, "When in doubt, don't"

Just a simple question, does your church use a pitch pipe to help start the singing? I have heard that discussion in the church of Christ circles. Pitch pipe okay or not?

Jim,

Again, I simply brought the issue up as an example. If you wish to discuss the issue of the use of mechanicle instruments, please begin a thread on that issue and I will be more than happy to discuss it further.

I will, in an effort to be polite, answer your question about the pitch pipe. No one at the congregation that I preach for uses one to find the pitch but I have been in congregations where they do. The pitch pipe is used for the song leader to find the pitch and then is put away. It is not used during the actual singing. Again, if you wish to further discuss this issue I suggest we start a thread on it.

Silence of the scripture indeed does not make it ok to simply do whatever we desire to do; it is binding though.

I am not certain as to your point with Melchisedec and the fact that there were priest before the Law. Yes, the Hebrew writer does state that Christ is a priest after the order of Melchisedec but he also stated that the Law had to be changed in order for Christ to be the high priest because Moses spoke nothing of the tribe of Judah pertaining to the priesthood. That is the Biblical principle of Silence of the Scripture.

[Covenanter]

Hermeneutics - "the study or theory of the methodical interpretation of text, especially holy texts."

That places us immediately on shaky ground - what is valid "interpretation?"

Really we need clear principles of understanding Scripture in the light of progressive revelation.

Under the new covenant:

we are forbidden to obey the rituals commanded under the old, including sacrifice & circumcision;

we are free to follow or ignore the food & hygiene laws to avoid giving needless offence;

we have no human priesthood, so that the Levitical priesthood is ended;

worship should be primarily Psalm singing from the heart, & as singing Psalms include the commendation & command to use instruments, instrumental accompaniment is reasonably inferred;

BUT

such attention to interpretation is worthless unless we centre our understanding of Scripture on our Lord Jesus Christ.

When the disciples were trying to make sense of all that had happened, Jesus taught them:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

The OC Scriptures can be "interpreted" according to a variety of hermeneutics, particularly dispensationalism & covenant theology. At some point we have to we have to decide:

whether a Scripture stands without interpretation,e.g creation, the flood, Esther, or whether interpretative teaching should be drawn from them?

to what extent Scripture that can be understood without interpretation should be interpreted to teach Christ?

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


IMHO we should primarily be concerned to teach Christ from every Scripture & apply that teaching. If we do not, we send our hearers away unfed.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Covenanter

[coc333]

Hermeneutics - "the study or theory of the methodical interpretation of text, especially holy texts."

That places us immediately on shaky ground - what is valid "interpretation?"

Really we need clear principles of understanding Scripture in the light of progressive revelation.

Under the new covenant:

we are forbidden to obey the rituals commanded under the old, including sacrifice & circumcision;

we are free to follow or ignore the food & hygiene laws to avoid giving needless offence;

we have no human priesthood, so that the Levitical priesthood is ended;

worship should be primarily Psalm singing from the heart, & as singing Psalms include the commendation & command to use instruments, instrumental accompaniment is reasonably inferred;

BUT

such attention to interpretation is worthless unless we centre our understanding of Scripture on our Lord Jesus Christ.

When the disciples were trying to make sense of all that had happened, Jesus taught them:

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

The OC Scriptures can be "interpreted" according to a variety of hermeneutics, particularly dispensationalism & covenant theology. At some point we have to we have to decide:

whether a Scripture stands without interpretation,e.g creation, the flood, Esther, or whether interpretative teaching should be drawn from them?

to what extent Scripture that can be understood without interpretation should be interpreted to teach Christ?

Acts 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.


IMHO we should primarily be concerned to teach Christ from every Scripture & apply that teaching. If we do not, we send our hearers away unfed.

The only way we are on shaky ground is if we do not study what the Bible has to say on the subject of "interpretation." As long as we study what the Bible teaches on this point, we are on a firm foundation.

[Covenanter]

The only way we are on shaky ground is if we do not study what the Bible has to say on the subject of "interpretation." As long as we study what the Bible teaches on this point, we are on a firm foundation.

Exactly - you've got the point.

Understanding the plain meaning must come before any attempt to interpret Scripture. However, the plain meaning (natural meaning) is not necessarily the meaning the Holy Spirit intended, so we should always seek a deeper, spiritual, meaning within the guidance of Scripture and particularly the NC interpretation of the OT. This is the area where Bible believers disagree.

e.g.

There is no immediate disagreement in Gen 12, where, guided by Paul in Gal 3, we see the blessings promised - in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. to refer to Christ - the ultimate seed of Abraham. Gentiles & Jews - together comprising all families of the earth are blessed in & by Christ through the Gospel.

The interpretative disagreement comes when there is an insistence on Abraham's natural descendants being a future great nation, rather than believers in Jesus. The NC writers do not prophesy a future for natural Israel apart from Christ, nor apart from Gentile believers.

That refusual to interpret prophecy as guided by the NC writers leads to serious error & fanciful interpretations of end times prophecy that goes way beyond a literal understanding. Edited January 9, 2011 by Covenanter

[Covenanter]

Areas where Scripture is silent include such matters as watching films, TV, ballroom dancing, motoring, etc.

Should I buy or rent my home? For which party should I vote? Should I give or withhold money from a beggar?

Our heart attitude & principles from the Word will guide us - but we shold always be aware that we are accountable to God for our decisions.

Other areas are KJO or modern versions? Liturgy or free worship order? Psalms and hymns or exclusive Psalms? Use of instruments to accompany worship. Mode of baptism of believers.

Christians disagree, & can make their decisions with a Biblically informed conscience.

[trc123]

Some Christians have a very hard time grasping that there are just some things that God does not give direction concerning. Yes, there are biblical principles in order to evaluate each decision. With that said, there are just some things were it really doesn't matter. Decisions are not always right or wrong decisions. If there are 6 different ways to get to church from my house, and I decide to take one route over another, I don't believe God is all that concerned with me going left and then right, rather than right and then left. There are some that hyper-spiritualize everything and they are generally the ones living in constant fear and dread of God's wrath, rather than his providence.