The Spiritual Progression of Human Souls.

[John Young]

On 6/27/2016 at 6:43 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  As may be expected from our disagreement concerning the originating spiritual condition and position of the human soul, I also disagree with your above premise.  I do indeed believe that the Lord God is wholly in control of the conceiving process, such that that each new, individual soul is directly created by God.  However, I believe that the Lord God engages in this creation through the natural physical and spiritual order, such that Adam's sinfulness is indeed passed through the human father unto the children, physically, "soulishly," and spiritually. In my understanding the soul and spirit are not linked to the parents but are clean creations by God. The flesh however is genetically linked and therefor is the transmitter of the parents mutations, DNA, genes, and other fleshly traits to the child. Because of Adam's sin, flesh is corrupted, weak, and is greatly influenced by the devil. But that corruption in the flesh is not sin in and of itself. Sin is the willful act of the Soul and has its influence through the flesh.

2.  I disagree with your understanding and usage of John 1:4-5. What would be your understanding and usage? John 12:35-46 continues the same thought as mine. The key verse being John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. My understanding is that all men have the light of Christ within themselves and for a time can either receive it or reject it. Those who reject it do so because their deeds are evil. Those who accept it will be "children if the light" and kept in Christ. Some will even continue to reject it until they are finally blinded to it. Luke 11:35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. Additionally, I believe, John, in these passages, is telling us that the same light that is in all men has come into the world as the man Christ Jesus.

3.  I disagree with your understanding and application of the term "flesh" in this context, as being applied unto the physical body and not unto a principle of selfishness within the human soul. Flesh is practically the vehicle whereby the soul experiences the physical world. However it has built in mechanisms and cravings in which it can "force" the soul to make decisions in its favor. Hence the verses: James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 2 Peter 1:4 whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; 1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. Therefor we see that the devil trough lust and corruption of the flesh can cause us to sin against God, when our souls satiate the flesh in a manor contrary to the laws of God. 

Herein I simply have a question -- From the perspective of your position, how quickly do those who are born into wicked homes lose their innocence?  I would have to say that innocents is lost fairly quickly and in several stages. First to go is the corrupt flesh because from birth it is trained to do and enjoy wickedness. Not unlike that of a dog which is trained to do what its master wishes. When such a man, at the time he comes to understanding, all he desires are the deed of his flesh so will choose it over the commands of God in his heart. I could not pinpoint an age but I would say it happens very early. As for myself. I was raised in a good christian home and for me, my first intentional sin happened near my Fifth birthday.

Herein I have another question -- Does your first parenthetical in this statement, "(both innocent and disobedient)," indicate your belief that some may encounter the offer of eternal salvation and eternal life even before they have committed their first act of sinful disobedience against God?  If it does indicate this, from what would they need to be saved? For one we all need to be saved from falling into sin and dying. He saves us and keeps us wholly from corruption and death.

4.  I disagree with your division of the two descriptions, "children of disobedience" and "children of wrath," from the description, "children of the devil."  I believe that all three of these descriptions are Biblically equivalent with one another in their application unto sinful individuals. While each has a similarity in their outcome the difference is clear in the wording. The "children of disobedience" are those who have disobeyed God's law the devil is working on to make him his; they can still be saved (Ephesians 2:1-3). The "children of the devil" are those who now follow the devil as their father and willingly work for him; they refuse to be saved (John 8:42-44) and God has rejected them. People in both groups are under God's wrath unless they repent to God by faith in Christ. John 12:35-46 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 that the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 43 for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Herein I have yet another question -- According to your position, upon whose "pure good" righteousness will the "innocent" be granted access unto heaven?  By virtue of being made by God and their soul not yet being corrupted by sin.

5.  Although you did not actually present this in your original article, you have presented it a number of times throughout the thread discussion as a support for a foundational premise of your original article.  Therefore, I express my disagreement with your understanding and application of Ecclesiastes 7:29.  In fact, I even believe that your understanding and application of Ecclesiastes 7:29 creates a self-contradiction within your own system of belief (specifically in relation to your understanding application of Romans 3:10). This is not a contradiction but a progression. God always makes things very good (upright) but man has the option to go bad. Romans 3:10 speaks to the fact that all men that God created have gone bad. That is why Romans 3:12 explains by saying: They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Therefor we need Christ to save us and keep us. Without Christ we will all sin and die.

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by John Young

[John Young]

On 6/27/2016 at 2:07 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

For the past week or so, I have desired to prepare and post a “doctrinal preface” concerning my position on the relationship between the soul, the spirit, and the body in the human individual.  Lack of time has prevented me from doing so until now.  Yet considering Brother Young’s quoted posting above, I believe that it is quite appropriate to present that “doctrinal preface” now.

I believe that the each human individual consists of three primary elements – (1) the soul, (2) the spirit, and (3) the body. (See 1 Thessalonians 4:23 [5:23]; Hebrews 4:12)

Concerning the soul, I believe that the soul of the human individual is to be defined as the essential personhood of that individual. (See Genesis 2:7; Matthew 10:28)  Furthermore, I believe that the human soul is not at all a physical element, but is the intangible person of the inner man. (See Isaiah 31:3; Luke 24:39)  Finally, I believe that the human soul can be sub-divided into various intertwined parts, including the heart for motivation and priority, the mind for thoughts and plans, the emotion for feelings and attitudes, the will for decisions and determination, the conscience for accusing or excusing, and "the “flesh” as the principle of selfishness within". [Is their a verse that states this about the flesh? I would say the flesh is an aspect of the body to which our soul can either cater to its desires to or put them into subjection. ]  (Note: I also believe that the term “soul” is often employed in Scripture, not for the intangible inner-man of the individual, but for the whole physical person of the individual in this world, not as a reference strictly unto the physical body, but as a reference unto the whole physical person as motivated by the inner-man soul.)

Concerning the spirit, I believe that the spirit of the human individual is that which God has given unto the human soul in order that he or she might have spiritual fellowship with God.  Because the Lord our God is a spirit by nature, we must worship Him and walk with Him “in spirit and in truth.” (See John 4:23-24).  Furthermore, I believe that the human spirit is also an intangible part of the human individual, and that it is so closely united with the human soul that it requires the precise sharpness of God’s Holy Word to divide the two into separate parts. (See Hebrews 4:12)  Finally, I believe that the human spirit is indeed “the candle of the Lord” within the human individual, which searches out and influences all the inward parts of the human soul (inner man). (See Proverbs 20:27)  However, I believe that from conception "every human spirit comes into this world, not with spiritual light and life, but being spiritually darkened" [I would think this contradicts John 1, unless you mean to say they all have the light but cannot comprehend it?] and dead "“in trespasses and sins.”" [I of course am contending that these scriptures indicate that our souls are dead in their own trespasses and sins but your contention being that soul or their spirit is already dead in the trespasses and sins of Adam.]  (See Ephesians 2:1-3; 4:17-19)  As such, I believe that the work of regeneration is that divine work wherein God, by the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection-life through the administration of the Holy Spirit, destroys our old spirit by uniting it in Christ’s death and creates a new spirit within us that is after His own likeness “in righteousness and true holiness.” (See Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26; John 3:5-6; Romans 6:3-11; Ephesians 2:1-10; 4:24)  (Note: I also believe that the term “spirit” is often employed in Scripture, not for the intangible spirit of the individual, but for the characteristic attitude of the individual.)

Concerning the body, I believe that the body of the human individual is that which God has given unto the human soul in order that he or she might interact with the physical world, which was created for the benefit of humanity.  Furthermore, I believe that the human body can be sub-divided into various and sundry parts, including the brain, bones, internal organs, skin, eyes, ears, mouth, nose, arms, legs, hands, feet, etc.  (Note: I  believe that the term “flesh” is sometimes employed in Scripture strictly for the physical body of the individual, and that it is employed at other times for the principle of selfishness within the soul of the individual.) 

I pretty much agree with your assessment except where indicated of course. I do agree that their needs to be an awakening/quickening of the spirit towards God however its still an aspect that I'm still studying as to what that is like pre-understanding" and "pre-sin" in a person. However, man's spirit, even in lost men pre-salvation, is certainly active, keeping his body alive, giving him wisdom from God, allowing him to discern the light, etc.  

Edited July 18, 2016 by John Young
John 1

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Young,

A great deal to work through now, so let us take things one step at a time.

On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2016 at 9:43 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  As may be expected from our disagreement concerning the originating spiritual condition and position of the human soul, I also disagree with your above premise.  I do indeed believe that the Lord God is wholly in control of the conceiving process, such that that each new, individual soul is directly created by God.  However, I believe that the Lord God engages in this creation through the natural physical and spiritual order, such that Adam's sinfulness is indeed passed through the human father unto the children, physically, "soulishly," and spiritually. In my understanding the soul and spirit are not linked to the parents but are clean creations by God. The flesh however is genetically linked and therefor is the transmitter of the parents mutations, DNA, genes, and other fleshly traits to the child. Because of Adam's sin, flesh is corrupted, weak, and is greatly influenced by the devil. But that corruption in the flesh is not sin in and of itself. Sin is the willful act of the Soul and has its influence through the flesh. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

In accord with the doctrinal position that you have taken above (as per the portion that I emboldened and underlined) concerning the origin/creation of each human soul, how would you explain the Biblical truth of Exodus 1:5 that seventy souls "came out of the loins of Jacob"?

(Note: We know exactly who those seventy souls were, as per Genesis 46:1-27.)

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[John Young]

9 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In accord with the doctrinal position that you have taken above (as per the portion that I emboldened and underlined) concerning the origin/creation of each human soul, how would you explain the Biblical truth of Exodus 1:5 that seventy souls "came out of the loins of Jacob"?

The soul is created at conception by the Spirit of God and the flesh of the father and mother you cannot create a soul without flesh. Even Christ came out of the loins of David yet without sin. Though He was in Spirit the Word of God He was of David after the flesh. The soul is formed from both but is separate. Souls come from both flesh and spirit just as the flesh comes from both father and mother.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Acts 2:29-31 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Edited July 20, 2016 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

13 hours ago, John Young said:

The soul is created at conception by the Spirit of God and the flesh of the father and mother you cannot create a soul without flesh. Even Christ came out of the loins of David yet without sin. Though He was in Spirit the Word of God He was of David after the flesh. The soul is formed from both but is separate. Souls come from both flesh and spirit just as the flesh comes from both father and mother.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Acts 2:29-31 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 he seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

1.  I myself do NOT believe that it is legitimate to use Jesus the Christ's origin as God the Son born in human flesh for an example concerning how human soul's originate.  Scripture makes clear to us that God the Son, as the Second Person of the eternal Godhead, existed "in the form of God" (who is a spirit), prior to his conception in human flesh within the womb of Mary.  This is not the case for any other human individual (soul).  Furthermore, Scripture makes clear that the process by which God the Son was conceived in human flesh was NOT according to the normal, natural pattern by which all other human individuals come into existence.  When Mary asked the angel in Luke 1:34 how she could conceive a child differently than the normal, natural pattern, the angel gave answer in Luke 1:35 -- "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."  Now, I myself am not aware of any Scripture wherein we are taught that the Holy Spirit comes upon women with the power of the Highest in the process of their conception.  Rather, Scripture seems to make clear that the normal, natural pattern whereby a woman conceives a child is through the seed of a man (out of the loins of a man).  Finally, Acts 2:29-31 does indeed indicate that Jesus the Christ, God the Son conceived and born in human flesh, was "of the fruit of [David's] loins," which would have occurred, not through the direct seed of a man, but through the "genetic material" of Mary herself.  However, Acts 2:29-31 is precise in its application of this declaration, applying it only with the phrase, "according to the flesh," and thereby indicating that it applied only unto Jesus' physical body.  On the other hand, Exodus 1:5 does specify mention "the loins of Jacob" (thereby implying the seed of Jacob) and does apply that truth directly unto the "souls" that came forth from him.

2.  The discussion-debate before us specifically concerns the matter of the origin of human souls.  I would contend that Ezekiel 18:4 does NOT actually speak concerning this matter at all.  Certainly, it speaks concerning God's ownership and authority over all human souls (which would also be true for every other part of the creation, including all human bodies and spirits as well).  Furthermore, in its immediate context Ezekiel 18:4 is intended to communicate the Lord God's authoritative right to kill a human individual (soul) if that human individual (soul) sins against Him, specifically because He possess ownership authority over all human individuals (souls).

3.  Isaiah 57:16 certainly DOES speak concerning the origin of human souls, indicating that God Himself is the Maker thereof.  Yet I would contend that this verse in itself is not enough to establish your position.  According to past discussion, I believe that you and I both agree concerning Psalm 139:13-16 -- that it would have application, not only unto the creative origin of David himself, but unto the creative origin of all human individuals.  As such, Psalm 139:13-16 appears to teach that the Lord our God is just as directly involved in the creative origin of each individual's physical body as He is involved in the creative origin of each individual's human soul.  Even so, (if I am understanding your position correctly) you argue that because the Lord God is directly involved in the creation of the human soul, the human soul MUST originate as good, without any corruption.  If we take that same logic concerning the physical body, then it would seem that since the Lord God is also directly involved in the creation of the human's body, that human body should ALSO originate as good, without any corruption.  However, even you in your position have acknowledged that the human body does indeed originate with corruption therein because of Adam's disobedience, as per the genetic corruption through sinful Adam's seed. 

Now, we both would acknowledge (I believe) through the knowledge of biological science, that the physical body of an individual finds its origin by the creative hand of God through the genetic material of the father and mother.  However, biological science cannot actually tell us anything concerning the origin of the human soul, since the human soul is intangible and physically unobservable.  Therefore, we must consider the actual statements of Scripture on the matter.  Above you have made the claim -- "The soul is created at conception by the Spirit of God and the flesh of the father and mother."  So then, I ask the following: (1) Do you have a passage which teaches that "the soul is created at conception"?  (Note: I am not seeking to deny this; I am only asking for an actual passage that supports this position.)  (2) Do you have a passage which teaches that "the Spirit of God" is involved in the creation of the human soul?  (3) Do you have a passage which teaches that the human soul is created through the two contributing "forces" of "the Spirit of God" and "the flesh of the father and mother"?  Indeed, you have then made the further claim -- "You cannot create a soul without flesh."  So then, I ask further: (4) Do you have a passage which teaches that a soul cannot be created "without flesh"?  In addition, I would then ask a side question: (5) If you believe that a human soul cannot come into existence (be created) "without flesh," do you also believe that a human soul cannot continue to exist apart from "flesh"?  (By the way, if indeed the human soul is created by the two contributing "forces" of "the Spirit of God" and "the flesh of the father [his seed] and mother [her egg]," would not the corruption of that "flesh" have some corruptive influence upon the "soul" which it contributed in creating?)  Finally, you have made the claim -- "Souls come from both flesh and spirit just as the flesh comes from both father and mother."  First, I take note that in this statement you changed "the spirit" side of the contribution from "the Spirit of God" (as an apparent reference to God the Holy Spirit) unto "spirit" with a lower case "s" (which appears to reference the human spirit).  Second, I am moved to ask: (6) Do you have a passage which teaches that "a soul" comes "from both flesh [physical body] and spirit [human spirit]"?

4.  Concerning Job 12:10, I would again contend that this this verse does not speak concerning the origin of the human soul, but concerning God's ownership and authority over, not just human souls, but the souls of the entire animal kingdom ("every living thing").  As such, I would contend that whatever truths we glean from this statement within its context, we must apply unto both humans and animals.  As for myself, I believe that the contextual intent of Job 12:10 is intended to indicate that the Lord our God possesses sovereign authority over the extension or ending of life for all that lives upon the earth.

5.  With Genesis 2:7 I can see how you might argue for the two contributing elements of a physical body (in Adam's case, formed from "the dust of the ground") and "the breath of life" in order to create a living, human soul.  Indeed, I can even see how you might argue for "the breath of life" to be understood as "the spirit of life," since of the 25 times that the Hebrew word is found in the Old Testament, twice it is translated as "spirit" (although in both of those cases, it refers to the "spirit" of man, not to the "Spirit of God").  However, although I can see how you might make this argument, I would be compelled to argue against it.  First, the translators of the King James translation, who knew Old Testament Hebrew far, far, FAR better than I do, did not translate the word as "spirit," but as "breath."  Second, the phrase "breath of life" is found in the King James translation only four times; and all of those are within the first seven chapters of Genesis, including Genesis 2:7; 6:17; 7:15, 22.  By a study of these four passage, we learn the phrase "breath of life" is NOT a specific doctrinal phrase for the human spirit, since the phrase is also employed for the land animals. (See Genesis 6:17; 7:15, 22)  So then, indeed in the case of Adam, a living human soul was created by the two contributing elements of a physical body and "the breath of life."  However, even this passage does not make reference unto a physical body and a human spirit.  Furthermore, I would contend that the case of Adam's creation does not provide the normal, natural pattern by which all human individuals (souls) are created, since no other human individual (soul) has ever been created in that same manner.

[Heir of Salvation]

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  I myself do NOT believe that it is legitimate to use Jesus the Christ's origin as God the Son born in human flesh for an example concerning how human soul's originate.  Scripture makes clear to us that God the Son, as the Second Person of the eternal Godhead, existed "in the form of God" (who is a spirit), prior to his conception in human flesh within the womb of Mary.  This is not the case for any other human individual (soul).  Furthermore, Scripture makes clear that the process by which God the Son was conceived in human flesh was NOT according to the normal, natural pattern by which all other human individuals come into existence.  When Mary asked the angel in Luke 1:34 how she could conceive a child differently than the normal, natural pattern, the angel gave answer in Luke 1:35 -- "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."  Now, I myself am not aware of any Scripture wherein we are taught that the Holy Spirit comes upon women with the power of the Highest in the process of their conception.  Rather, Scripture seems to make clear that the normal, natural pattern whereby a woman conceives a child is through the seed of a man (out of the loins of a man).  Finally, Acts 2:29-31 does indeed indicate that Jesus the Christ, God the Son conceived and born in human flesh, was "of the fruit of [David's] loins," which would have occurred, not through the direct seed of a man, but through the "genetic material" of Mary herself.  However, Acts 2:29-31 is precise in its application of this declaration, applying it only with the phrase, "according to the flesh," and thereby indicating that it applied only unto Jesus' physical body.  On the other hand, Exodus 1:5 does specify mention "the loins of Jacob" (thereby implying the seed of Jacob) and does apply that truth directly unto the "souls" that came forth from him.

2.  The discussion-debate before us specifically concerns the matter of the origin of human souls.  I would contend that Ezekiel 18:4 does NOT actually speak concerning this matter at all.  Certainly, it speaks concerning God's ownership and authority over all human souls (which would also be true for every other part of the creation, including all human bodies and spirits as well).  Furthermore, in its immediate context Ezekiel 18:4 is intended to communicate the Lord God's authoritative right to kill a human individual (soul) if that human individual (soul) sins against Him, specifically because He possess ownership authority over all human individuals (souls).

3.  Isaiah 57:16 certainly DOES speak concerning the origin of human souls, indicating that God Himself is the Maker thereof.  Yet I would contend that this verse in itself is not enough to establish your position.  According to past discussion, I believe that you and I both agree concerning Psalm 139:13-16 -- that it would have application, not only unto the creative origin of David himself, but unto the creative origin of all human individuals.  As such, Psalm 139:13-16 appears to teach that the Lord our God is just as directly involved in the creative origin of each individual's physical body as He is involved in the creative origin of each individual's human soul.  Even so, (if I am understanding your position correctly) you argue that because the Lord God is directly involved in the creation of the human soul, the human soul MUST originate as good, without any corruption.  If we take that same logic concerning the physical body, then it would seem that since the Lord God is also directly involved in the creation of the human's body, that human body should ALSO originate as good, without any corruption.  However, even you in your position have acknowledged that the human body does indeed originate with corruption therein because of Adam's disobedience, as per the genetic corruption through sinful Adam's seed. 

Now, we both would acknowledge (I believe) through the knowledge of biological science, that the physical body of an individual finds its origin by the creative hand of God through the genetic material of the father and mother.  However, biological science cannot actually tell us anything concerning the origin of the human soul, since the human soul is intangible and physically unobservable.  Therefore, we must consider the actual statements of Scripture on the matter.  Above you have made the claim -- "The soul is created at conception by the Spirit of God and the flesh of the father and mother."  So then, I ask the following: (1) Do you have a passage which teaches that "the soul is created at conception"?  (Note: I am not seeking to deny this; I am only asking for an actual passage that supports this position.)  (2) Do you have a passage which teaches that "the Spirit of God" is involved in the creation of the human soul?  (3) Do you have a passage which teaches that the human soul is created through the two contributing "forces" of "the Spirit of God" and "the flesh of the father and mother"?  Indeed, you have then made the further claim -- "You cannot create a soul without flesh."  So then, I ask further: (4) Do you have a passage which teaches that a soul cannot be created "without flesh"?  In addition, I would then ask a side question: (5) If you believe that a human soul cannot come into existence (be created) "without flesh," do you also believe that a human soul cannot continue to exist apart from "flesh"?  (By the way, if indeed the human soul is created by the two contributing "forces" of "the Spirit of God" and "the flesh of the father [his seed] and mother [her egg]," would not the corruption of that "flesh" have some corruptive influence upon the "soul" which it contributed in creating?)  Finally, you have made the claim -- "Souls come from both flesh and spirit just as the flesh comes from both father and mother."  First, I take note that in this statement you changed "the spirit" side of the contribution from "the Spirit of God" (as an apparent reference to God the Holy Spirit) unto "spirit" with a lower case "s" (which appears to reference the human spirit).  Second, I am moved to ask: (6) Do you have a passage which teaches that "a soul" comes "from both flesh [physical body] and spirit [human spirit]"?

4.  Concerning Job 12:10, I would again contend that this this verse does not speak concerning the origin of the human soul, but concerning God's ownership and authority over, not just human souls, but the souls of the entire animal kingdom ("every living thing").  As such, I would contend that whatever truths we glean from this statement within its context, we must apply unto both humans and animals.  As for myself, I believe that the contextual intent of Job 12:10 is intended to indicate that the Lord our God possesses sovereign authority over the extension or ending of life for all that lives upon the earth.

5.  With Genesis 2:7 I can see how you might argue for the two contributing elements of a physical body (in Adam's case, formed from "the dust of the ground") and "the breath of life" in order to create a living, human soul.  Indeed, I can even see how you might argue for "the breath of life" to be understood as "the spirit of life," since of the 25 times that the Hebrew word is found in the Old Testament, twice it is translated as "spirit" (although in both of those cases, it refers to the "spirit" of man, not to the "Spirit of God").  However, although I can see how you might make this argument, I would be compelled to argue against it.  First, the translators of the King James translation, who knew Old Testament Hebrew far, far, FAR better than I do, did not translate the word as "spirit," but as "breath."  Second, the phrase "breath of life" is found in the King James translation only four times; and all of those are within the first seven chapters of Genesis, including Genesis 2:7; 6:17; 7:15, 22.  By a study of these four passage, we learn the phrase "breath of life" is NOT a specific doctrinal phrase for the human spirit, since the phrase is also employed for the land animals. (See Genesis 6:17; 7:15, 22)  So then, indeed in the case of Adam, a living human soul was created by the two contributing elements of a physical body and "the breath of life."  However, even this passage does not make reference unto a physical body and a human spirit.  Furthermore, I would contend that the case of Adam's creation does not provide the normal, natural pattern by which all human individuals (souls) are created, since no other human individual (soul) has ever been created in that same manner.

"Soul" in the New Testament...is not the same as tho Old Testament "nephesh"....

I'm thinking that's where some confusion lies...

"nephesh" is simply "soul" or "life" in Hebrew...thus Adam became a living "soul".

Once we get into parsing out the Greek of the New Testament...words translated "soul" aren't coextensive with the Hebrew idea of "soul".

 

"Soul" isn't a particularly defined subject in Hebrew thought...it's MUCH more well defined in 100 A.D. when the Scriptures were captured in Greek, rather than confuse ourselves, why not simply flesh out the linguistic differences.

"nephesh" does NOT mean what "Soul" means in koine Greek and it isn't as loaded an idea.  It's a more primal idea no doubt in Hebrew than it would be in the N.T.

I don't think we'd be correct to compare "soul" in the O.T. as coextensive with "soul" in the Greek of the N.T.

You have knowledge of the original languages (as I've observed from your posts)....I'd imagine you know that the Hebrew's "nephesh" is clearly not "soul" in Greek then translated into English.....the Hebrew...just sorta includes the idea of a "life" or a "being"......we shouldn't compare the two.

Remember according to the book of Ecclesiastes....both man and animals supposedly have "spirits"!

Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

רוּחַ

and

רוּחַ

 

That's for both man and a beast!  I'm sure you know that "ruach" simply means something like "wind" or "spirit-wind"...and we translate it as: "life"...or "soul"  into English.  But it's a very primal idea not NEAR as specified as the loaded terms we often now use, from a westernized Greek Philosophical pre-suppositional standpoint.   Let's not confuse them no???

I don't think we should ascribe the same level of specificity to words like "soul" or "life" or "person" in the same way in the O.T. as we do to the more specific ideas expressed in the N.T.  That might clear up a lot of confusion...In other words...don't take the KJV's use of the word "soul" in the O.T. as coextensive with the KJV's use of "soul" in the N.T.  They aren't the same loaded idea in both testaments.  I'd contend the KJV translators knew that as well, but...you have to translate as well as you can.

 

But "soul" doesn't neccessarily mean the same thing in Hebrew as it does in Greek even if the same word is best translated into English the same way.

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Heir of Salvation

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Young,

In my most recent response to you (here), I included a number of specific questions concerning your stated position.  I am aware that you have not yet had the time to respond, and I certainly respect the priority of family and ministry responsibilities upon your time.  However, this afternoon and evening I myself did have a window of time in order to present another installment of my response toward your posting of July 16.  Already I have responded unto the first line of your response to my point #1.  In this posting I wish to respond unto third line of your response to my point #1, as follows:

On 6/27/2016 at 9:43 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  As may be expected from our disagreement concerning the originating spiritual condition and position of the human soul, I also disagree with your above premise.  I do indeed believe that the Lord God is wholly in control of the conceiving process, such that that each new, individual soul is directly created by God.  However, I believe that the Lord God engages in this creation through the natural physical and spiritual order, such that Adam's sinfulness is indeed passed through the human father unto the children, physically, "soulishly," and spiritually.   In my understanding the soul and spirit are not linked to the parents but are clean creations by God. The flesh however is genetically linked and therefor is the transmitter of the parents mutations, DNA, genes, and other fleshly traits to the child. Because of Adam's sin, flesh is corrupted, weak, and is greatly influenced by the devil. But that corruption in the flesh is not sin in and of itself. Sin is the willful act of the Soul and has its influence through the flesh.  (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

With the statement that you have made above (as per the portion that I emboldened and underlined), you appear to acknowledge that Adam’s first disobedience did indeed have some form of impact upon the generations of human individuals which followed from him.  However, you appear to limit this impact only unto the physical aspect of each human individual by indicating that “because of Adam’s sin, flesh [the physical body] is corrupted, weak, and is greatly influenced by the devil.”  Yet you also hold forth that this “corruption in the flesh [physical body] is not sin in and of itself.”

In this posting I wish to consider more fully the impact of Adam’s first disobedience upon the generations of human individuals which followed from him.  It is my belief that the most extensive Biblical passage concerning this matter is that of Romans 5:12-19.  Therefore, I wish to present a series of points from that passage concerning this matter.

1.  "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world."

According to the opening line of Romans 5:12, Adam’s first disobedience brought sin “into the world.”  Although among the human creation Eve committed the first sin against God, not Adam, yet Eve’s sinful act did not cause sin to enter “into the world” as a whole.  Rather, this result is attributed specifically unto Adam’s first disobedience, such that from his first disobedience the characteristic of sin in some manner entered into the whole of the created world.

2.  "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men . . . ."

As Romans 5:12 continues, it reveals one aspect wherein Adam’s first disobedience caused sin to enter into the whole of the created world – by causing the corruption and curse of physical death to enter into the whole of the created world.  Indeed, Romans 5:12 further reveals that this curse “passed upon all men,” that is – upon each and every human individual that came forth from Adam.  Herein the phrase “passed upon” indicates that this curse and corruption of physical death originated with Adam’s first disobedience and then passed from that point of origin upon each and every human individual.  Thus we may conclude that each and every human individual is conceived with this curse and corruption of physical death already upon him or her.

(Note: I myself believe that this reference unto the curse and corruption of “death” in Romans 5:12 not only includes physical death, but also includes spiritual death (that is – to be conceived already spiritually “dead in trespasses and sins”).  Indeed, I believe that the parenthetical explanation of Romans 5:13-17 supports this position.  However, for the sake of the present discussion and debate, I do not intend to push this point.)

3.  "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation."

According to the opening line of Romans 5:18, Adam’s first disobedience not only brought “death” upon each and every human individual, but also brought God’s judgment upon each and every human individual.  Furthermore, Romans 5:18 reveals that this judgment of God “upon all men” is specifically a judgment unto the result of “condemnation.”  (In fact, the word “judgment” in this verse is in italics within the King James translation, indicating that it is not specifically in the original Greek, but is added for the understanding of the English reader.  On the other hand, the word “condemnation” very specifically is a part of the original Greek.)  As such, Romans 5:18 indicates that Adam’s first disobedience did indeed have an impact of a “spiritual accountability” nature upon each and every individual that came forth from Adam.  The word “condemnation” is a term of accountability; and very specifically this verse teaches that this “condemnation” “came upon all men,” not by their own individual offenses of sin against God, but by the one sinful offense of Adam’s first disobedience.  “All men” are accountable.  Indeed, “all men” are already condemned.  Indeed, “all men” are already condemned by and because of Adam’s first disobedience.  As such, “all men” were already condemned from the moment of Adam’s first disobedience.  As such, “all men” are already condemned from the moment of their conception.

(Note: I myself would contend that this verse removes any possibility for the doctrine of a “moment of accountability” for each human individual.  The “moment of accountability” for each individual is not at some point of spiritual understanding.  Rather, the “moment of accountability” and of “condemnation” has already occurred at the moment when Adam committed his first disobedience.)

4.  "For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners."

According to the opening line of Romans 5:19, Adam’s first disobedience made many to be “sinners.”  Now, this statement begins with the explanatory conjunction “for,” indicating that this verse serves as the explanation for the teaching of the previous verse.  As such, we may understand that the very reason that judgment unto condemnation “came upon all men” by Adam’s first disobedience is specifically because “many were made sinners” by Adam’s first disobedience.  Even so, we learn that “many” human individuals (whoever is included in the word “many”) were not simply made able to commit sin, but were actually made to be “sinners” by nature.  Furthermore, we learn that this spiritual condition of “sinner-hood” occurred, not by their own willful choices of sinful disobedience, but by Adam’s first disobedience.  Indeed, we learn that “many” human individuals (whoever is included) “were made” to be “sinners” by nature through the spiritual force of Adam’s first disobedience, and that these "many human individuals" had no choice whatsoever therein.

(Note: I am certainly compelled to acknowledge that this statement does not employ the word “all,” but employs the word “many.”  Even so, a debate could be engaged over whether the word “many” indicates the “many of all,” since “all” would certainly meet the definition of “many,” or whether the word “many” indicates “many among all.”  I myself would contend that in context the word “many” indicates the “many of all.”  However, for the sake of this discussion and debate, I will not presently not push the matter.)

Edited August 26, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[John Young]

The passage does not say we are condemned as sinners by Adam's sin but rather we are condemned to be corrupted and to die because of Adam's sin. My position is that by Adam's sin mankind received a physically corruptible body by which sin could freely tempt, enter and corrupt by lust. Souls did not receive the sin as part of themselves but rather can give in to it. James 1:14-15 but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

If we take to this passage the idea that souls have sin before birth and take "many" to mean all, then just as all were dead in sin then now all have life in rightiousness, regardless of their actions or lack of faith, as well. However many does not mean all. Many are not yet sinners and many are not yet dead but all souls who live in Adam will sin given the choice and all flesh dies because of Adam's sin. Many will chose not to be born again but all that believe in Christ will be saved from sin and death by Christ and all wither good or bad will be resurrected for judgement by Christ (John 5:28-30; John 11:24-26).

Romans 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. While corruption and death will pass upon all flesh because of sin, and all the dead bodies of flesh will be resurrected by Christ and reunited to their souls; in regard to the soul, imputation of  Adam's disobedience (sin) and Christ's obedience (righteousness) are open to ALL, though, not all will partake in either for one reason or another but many will. 

I take the position that many are made sinners the same way many are made saints. By choice after we are led. Romans 7:7-11 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Romans 7:7-11 is the same way Eve fell and is the same way we all fall by transgressing the law. 1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Adam was to keep her safe but failed and allowed sin to have its way upon all flesh. However, when we that are saved by Christ, when we sin He keeps us from falling by His Spirit. Jude 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The fact is the bible never says all start out sinners because of Adam but that all become sinners. The reason we need to be born again is because Adam's birth allows sin to work in our corruptible flesh to the harm of our spirit, soul, and body but Christ's birth allows God's immortal incorruptible Spirit to work and keep our souls.1 Corinthians 15:50-54 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Whereas Adam's sin brings corruption and death to all who trust in the desires of the flesh, Christ's Gospel brings life and immortality to all who believe in Him. 2 Timothy 1:8-14 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Romans 7:4-6 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Edited August 26, 2016 by John Young

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, John Young said:

The passage does not say we are condemned as sinners by Adam's sin but rather we are condemned to be corrupted and to die because of Adam's sin. 

Actually, neither of these two verses (Romans 5:18-19) say anything about "corruption" or "death."  Rather, these two verses speak about "condemnation" and "sinner-hood."  Indeed, Romans 5:18-19 teaches the following:

1.  That ALL human individuals have condemnation upon them -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation."

2.  That this condemnation came upon ALL human individuals by Adam's sin -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation."

3.  That this condemnation came upon ALL human individual in the past (at the moment of Adam's sin) -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation."

4.  That the explanatory reason for this condemnation upon ALL human individuals is because many were made sinners by Adam's sin -- "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."

5.  That many human individuals (whoever that may include) were made to be sinners by nature, not just made to have the possibility to commit sin -- "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."  (Note: The word "sinners" does not describe what they might do, but defines who they actually are.)

6.  That these many human individuals (whoever that may include) were made sinners by Adam's sin, not by their own choice of sin -- "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners."

7.  That these many human individuals (whoever that may include) were made sinners in the past (at the moment of Adam's sin) -- "For as by one's disobedience many were made sinners."

8.  That in both statements the specific cause for the negative spiritual effect is Adam's first disobedience.

(Note: In the two contrasting statements of Romans 8:19, concerning the imputation of "sinner-hood" by Adam's disobedience and concerning the imputation of righteousness by Christ's obedience, the word "many" is employed as the word of application for this work of imputation.  However, these two contrasting statements do not directly indicate that the "many" of each statement is the same group of "many."  In fact, the word "many" by definition simply means "a large number."  It does not by definition require the "many" to be a percentage subset of the whole; it simply requires by definition "a large number."  As such, the word "many" by definition can include the whole set if that whole set is "a large number."  On the other hand, it by definition can also refer only to some percentage of the whole if that percentage encompasses "a large number.")

Edited August 26, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Neopatriarch]

Hello John.  Sorry I'm so late to the discussion here.  In your response to Pastor Markle on Romans 5:12 you say, “This verse says ‘for that all have sinned’ but not ‘all have sin’. Death will pass upon all men because of their sin. Physical death is because of Adam's sin but Spiritual death is because of our own sin.” 

C. Michael Patton says, “Most commentators would argue that it is very difficult to interpret the ‘all sinned’ as an act of personal choice (contra Pelagius and Arminius). Why? Because of the force of the verb tense; it is likely a historic aorist (past tense referring back to the sin of Adam). If the Pelagian or Arminian interpretation were correct, the present tense would have been a much better choice for Paul in this context. Then it would naturally read, ‘Because all sin.’ Then we could answer the question ‘Why are all people condemned?’ with ‘Because all people sin.’ But this is not the case here in Romans.” [1] 

John Piper argues in his book Counted Righteous in Christ, “If you say, ‘Through Adam sin and death entered the world, and death spread to everybody because all sinned individually,’ then the comparison with the work of Jesus (which is where he is heading; cf. ‘just as . . .’) would probably be, ‘So also, through Jesus Christ, righteousness and life entered the world, and life spread to all because all individually did acts of righteousness.’  In other words, justification would not be God’s imputing righteousness to us, but our doing individual acts of righteousness with Christ’s help, which would then be counted as our righteousness.  This would turn the whole point of Romans 1-5 on its head” (pp. 92-93).

I also must take issue with the support you gave for your claim that “all start out innocent.”  Your supporting verses were John 9:1-3 and Romans 9:10-12.  First, on John 9:1-3 Barnes Notes on the Bible comments, “Neither hath this man sinned ... - That is, his blindness is not the effect of his sin, or that of his parents. Jesus did not, evidently, mean to affirm that he or his parents were without any sin, but that this blindness was not the effect of sin. This answer is to be interpreted by the nature of the question submitted to him. The sense is, ‘his blindness is not to be traced to any fault of his or of his parents.’” [2] So, on this count, the blind man cannot be considered innocent in the sense you mean it.  Second, Romans 9:10-12 can be understood to mean that Jacob and Esau committed no *personal* sin, but they are still guilty because of the *imputed* sin of Adam.

Further, you claim, “The reason no soul can be a sinner or child of the devil before birth is because the birthing process is wholly controlled by God and only God can create life, giving life and a spirit to every living creature.”  But I don’t understand how God’s control of the birthing process logically unpacks to “all start out innocent.”  I could accept that our birthing process is wholly controlled by God and our imputed guilt from Adam together.    

[1]  http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2008/05/a-short-defense-of-imputation-or-am-i-really-condemned-for-the-sin-of-another/

[2]  http://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/9-3.htm

In Christ,

Chris

[No Nicolaitans]

2 hours ago, Neopatriarch said:

Hello John.  Sorry I'm so late to the discussion here.

Hi Neopatriarch, and welcome to Online Baptist. 

Please don't take this the wrong way; I promise that it is only meant as just a friendly word of advice. As you're here longer, you will probably find that quoting men (and their views regarding scripture) tends to be less desirable or appreciated than giving one's own thoughts/interpretation/understanding/etc.of scripture. We all have opinions, agreements, and disagreements as to what scripture means at times...but that's the point...they are ours and not the views of someone else. 

Again, this was meant to be friendly, and I hope you will take it in the spirit in which it was intended.

[Neopatriarch]

19 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Hi Neopatriarch, and welcome to Online Baptist. 

Please don't take this the wrong way; I promise that it is only meant as just a friendly word of advice. As you're here longer, you will probably find that quoting men (and their views regarding scripture) tends to be less desirable or appreciated than giving one's own thoughts/interpretation/understanding/etc.of scripture. We all have opinions, agreements, and disagreements as to what scripture means at times...but that's the point...they are ours and not the views of someone else. 

Again, this was meant to be friendly, and I hope you will take it in the spirit in which it was intended.

Thanks for the welcome.

I admit I lack expertise in the bible and theology and so I bow to the expertise of those who have it, but not without consideration.  Often, experts will state a matter much more clearly and concisely than I ever could (please forgive the alliteration). 

Edited August 26, 2016 by Neopatriarch
typo

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 5:55 AM, John Young said:

If we take to this passage the idea that souls have sin before birth and take "many" to mean all, then just as all were dead in sin then now all have life in rightiousness, regardless of their actions or lack of faith, as well. However many does not mean all. Many are not yet sinners and many are not yet dead but all souls who live in Adam will sin given the choice and all flesh dies because of Adam's sin. Many will chose not to be born again but all that believe in Christ will be saved from sin and death by Christ and all wither good or bad will be resurrected for judgement by Christ (John 5:28-30; John 11:24-26).

Well, as I make my rounds through the various thread discussions and Bible studies in which I have a part, I now return unto this thread discussion.

Concerning the word “many” in Romans 5:12-19.

The word “many” is employed as a designation for a group of people in two verses within Romans 5:12-19.  These two verses are verse 15 and verse 19.  Yet in both of these verses the word “many” is employed within both of the contrasting statements in each verse respectively.

Now, basically the word “many” means “a large grouping.”  In some manner, it refers to a subset of some group.  However, the word “many” is not a technical term of amount, but is a general term of amount.  Therefore, the subset which it represents could be differently defined according to a given context.  First, the subset of the word “many” could refer unto “the many” which encompasses “the all.”  In such a case, “the all” would indeed encompass “a large grouping,” thereby fulfilling the basic definition of “many.”  Second, the subset of the word “many” could refer to some majority number from among the whole, which would encompass “a large grouping” in relation to the whole.  Third, the subset of the word “many” could even refer to some minority number from among the whole, as long as that minority number actually does still encompass “a large grouping.”

Furthermore, it is worthy of notice that within the context of Romans 5:15 and Romans 5:19, there is no specific indication that the word “many” in each case is intended as a reference unto the same exact grouping of “many” for each case.

1.  Romans 5:15a – “But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.  For if through the offence of one many be dead . . . .”

Herein Romans 5:15 indicates that “the many” are dead through the first disobedience of Adam.  Now, I would contend that in this statement the word “many” refers unto “the many” who are “the all” for the following reasons.  First, earlier in the context Romans 5:12 declares that “death passed upon all men.”  Second, earlier in the context Romans 5:14 indicated that “death reigned” within the human race “from Adam to Moses,” even before the Law was given at Sinai.  Since death has “passed upon all men,” such that “death reigned” within the human race from the very time of Adam, it seems reasonable to conclude from the context that “the many” who are dead in Romans 5:14 are the same as “the all” upon whom “death passed” in Romans 5:12.

2.  Romans 5:15b – “. . . Much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.”

Herein Romans 5:15 indicates that God’s grace and the gift of that grace has “abounded unto many” by Jesus Christ.  Now, in this statement the word “many” could refer contextually unto “the many” who are “the all,” or unto a grouping of many from among “the all.”  If this statement refers unto the offer of God’s grace and gift, then it would be indicating that this offer has been made unto “the many” who are “the all.”  This viewpoint would correspond with the closing statement of Romans 5:18 – “. . . Even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”  Now, from the earlier teaching in the whole epistle to the Romans, we understand that the “free gift” of eternal justification and eternal life is only experienced by those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  Furthermore, we understand from the teaching of the whole New Testament, that not “all men” believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  Thus we would understand that this reference concerning the “free gift’s” coming “upon all men unto justification of life” must be a reference unto the offer of that “free gift” for “all men,” not the experience of that “free gift” by “all men.”

On the other hand, if the statement of Romans 5:15 refers unto the experience of God’s grace and gift, then it would be indicating that this experience occurs for “the many” from among “the all.”  First, as I have previously noted, the earlier teaching in the whole epistle to the Romans reveals that not “all men” experience God’s grace and gift unto “justification of life,” but only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.  Furthermore, this viewpoint would correspond with the closing statement of Romans 5:17 – “. . . Much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”  This statement refers unto those who “receive” the abundance of God’s grace and the abundance of His gift of righteousness (justification), and the way to “receive” this grace and gift of God is through faith.  In addition, this statement indicates that those who receive “shall reign in life” by Jesus Christ.  Such is the language of experiencing eternal life, and such an experience is only for those who believe on Christ.

3.  Romans 5:19a – “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners . . . .”

Herein Romans 5:19 indicates that “many” individuals “were made sinners,” not by their own choice of disobedience, but by Adam’s first choice of disobedience.  Now, I would contend that in this statement the word “many” also refers unto “the many” who are “the all” for the following reasons.  First, earlier in the context Romans 5:12 declared  that “all have sinned” (see also Romans 3:23), so that there are no exceptions in this matter.  Second, according to the use of the explanatory conjunction “for” at the beginning of Romans 5:19, this statement is provided as an explanation for that truth which was expressed in Romans 5:18.  Therein the truth was expressed that by Adam’s first disobedience and offense “judgment came upon all men to condemnation.”  Now, in the justice of God, judgment unto condemnation does not come upon individuals unless there is sinfulness and guiltiness for which to judge and condemn.  So then, if “all men” are judged unto condemnation, there must be some reason of sinfulness and guiltiness by which to cause this.  Even so, the opening portion of Romans 5:19 reveals that cause – in that “many were made sinners” by Adam’s first disobedience.  Since the judgment unto condemnation came upon “all men,” it seems reasonable to conclude from the context that “the many” who “were made sinners” in Romans 5:19 are the same as “the all” upon whom judgment unto condemnation for sinfulness has come.

4.  Romans 5:19b – “. . . So by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Herein Romans 5:19 indicates that “many” individuals shall “be made righteous” by the obedience of the Lord Jesus Christ, even unto the death of the cross.  Now, I would contend that in this statement the word “many” refers unto a grouping of “many” from among “the all.”  The grammatical phrase, “shall be made righteous,” is a phrase of experience.  As such, this statement indicates that “the many” shall experience the righteousness of Christ unto them in their justification and upon them in their regeneration.  Since we understand from the earlier teaching of the whole epistle to the Romans that this is only experienced through faith in Christ, and since we understand from the teaching of the whole New Testament that not “all men” believe on Christ, it seems reasonable to conclude that the experience of this statement is limited only unto “the many” who actually believe on Christ.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 5:55 AM, John Young said:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

I take the position that many are made sinners the same way many are made saints. By choice after we are led.

The fact is the bible never says all start out sinners because of Adam but that all become sinners.

Brother Young,

1.  Romans 5:19 does NOT teach that "many were made sinners" "by choice," as you say.  Rather, Romans 5:19 teaches that "many were made sinners" "by one man's [Adam's] disobedience."  So then, which is the source of truth - your position, or the Biblical statement?

2.  The fact is that there is not a single verse in all of Scripture which joins the verb "become" (or one of its cognates) with the word "sinners," no, not even one.  As such, God's Word does NOT say anything about "becoming" sinners.  Rather, in Romans 5:19 God's Word speaks about "being made" sinners by the disobedience of one human individual, Adam.  The fact is that God's Word DOES say that "many were made sinners" because of Adam.

(By the way, I am not ignoring the passage which you presented in support of your statement, that is -- Romans 7:4-11.  However, I find that this passage, which you have presented in support of your statements about individuals "becoming" sinners, does not even once employ either the word "sinner" or "sinners."  So then, I wonder how it can say what you claim when it does not even use your terminology.  On the other, Romans 5:19 DOES use the word "sinners," and DOES speak about how "many were made sinners."  Precision in Bible study requires that we begin with the precise terminology of God's Word in its precise grammatical and contextual construction.)

[John Young]

Your post on "all" vs "many" seems similar to the Calvinist method when they explain into the text their external doctrine on how "all" and "whosoever" actually just mean "the elect". So you can see how I am very reluctant to accept that way of thinking about this passage. I'm not saying your study is wrong in most instance of determining the differences in the "all" and "many" but it seems that  much study has gone into the wrong thing of trying to compartmentalize "many" to really mean "all" and "all" just really means "many". I do not think contextualizing the words to in that way helps in actually understanding the passage. However, If we simply let the words be what they truly mean in the simplicity of the text then we can glean the truth much better.

Paul is dealing with all men in the world and not only certain groups or groupings. So when he uses all he means "all men in the world" and uses "all" to mean all who have been or ever will be in the world with death and sin. When he says "many" he means "many of those men in the world". And I believe that is why Paul used each word in the way that he did. I do not see any other group in the passage besides these.

In the passage Paul is dealing with two sets of two. Death and Life, and Sin and Righteousness. Death and Sin are currently in the physical world because of Adam's Transgression. Life and Righteousness are in the Spirit of Christ and is from God in Heaven. This passage in particular is dealing with the effects of death and sin in the physical world and how, by God's grace, we all can receive life and righteousness in the world.

ALL are condemned to Get Death because of Adam. (Adam condemns the flesh to death)
MANY were Made Sinners because of Adam. (our sin, because of his example and the example of all flesh, condemns the soul, kills the spirit)
ALL can Get Life because of Christ. (Christ gives life to all)
MANY Are Made Righteous because of Christ. (Christ's righteousness quickens the spirit back to life and keeps the soul)

Therefor, I am still of the contention that many does not mean all. Particularly, that while they are all made subject to death by Adam some still have never lived long enough to sin to the condemnation of the soul. As well, I contend Death, because of Adam, passed upon all men (we all die in the flesh because of Adam), so too, the gift of life by Christ has passed upon all men. So too, because many sinned because of Adam's example (many because not all will have a chance to sin), so too, many are made righteous because of Christ (many because not all will accept His Righteousness). Not all sinned like Adam but all will die because of Adam. All can live again because of Christ but not all will be made righteous. Not all broke the law in this life whereby sin is measured to the soul but all die physically because of sin.

Romans 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Below I've commented on the passage with how I understand it. The verses commented in red are the main verses, the Blues is a parentheses for verse 12 about how physical death can rule even over those who have not yet sinned.


Romans 5:12-21 

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; Sin and death entered into the world by Adam

and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: All men die because of their sin

13-17 explain how men die by sin

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; All men are condemned to die physically (in the world) because of Adam's sin

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. All men can receive justification to life from the condemnation of death

 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, Many were made sinners because of Adam (by trusting in Adam/the flesh)

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Many can be made righteous the same way because of Christ. (by trusting in Christ/the Spirit)

 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. The law shows the sin.

But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: In place of our sin unto death we can have Grace unto life

21 that as sin hath reigned unto death, Wages of sin is death

even so might grace reign God's grace will overrule Sin

through righteousness the righteousness of Christ in us will rule over our sin

unto eternal life The free gift will also give life.

by Jesus Christ our Lord. His righteousness saves us from sin and death.

 

13-17 explain how men die by sin

13 (for until the law sin was in the world: Sin was in the world before the law.

but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Sin is not in effect on men until the law comes. (Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, However, Death is in force over all men.

even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, Even if man did not sin like Adam did.  (Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:)

who is the figure of him that was to come. Adam is the fleshly/earthly figure of the spiritual/heavenly Christ.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. Just as we get death in the world by Adam's sin, we all get the gift of life from Christ in the world because of His Righteous life. (Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.)

For if through the offence of one many be dead, Many received death in the flesh because of Adam's sin

much more the grace of God, God's grace of righteousness to life is more powerful than his Judgement of sin unto Death

and the gift by grace, God gives life by His good grace to those who have sinned unto death

which is by one man, Jesus Christ, God's grace entered into the world by Jesus Christ.

hath abounded unto many. Many will receive life by Christ 

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: By Adams sin we all die physically, By Christ we all live Spiritually.

for the judgment was by one to condemnation, God Condemned all to a physical death because of Adam

but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. But those who sin and receive the gift of life can become justified

17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; If we all will die physically because of Adam.

much more they which receive Then by Christ we will receive more

abundance of grace we will receive grace to life by Christ in spite of the condemnation to physical death by Adam

and of the gift of righteousness We will receive righteousness over sin (our sin kills our soul, Christ righteousness keeps our soul: Ezekiel 18:20, 1 Peter 4:19, Romans 10:4, Philippians 3:9)

shall reign in life We will receive life over death 

by one, Jesus Christ.)

Edited September 24, 2016 by John Young