Celebrating General Lee's 202nd Birthday

[Guest Guest]

Maybe the north thought the rich plantation owners in the south had way to much money so slavery was their excuse to steal it.

You don't see that in many ways it was Gods justice to return the souths own actions upon its head? Considering Lee and other southerners did not object to stealing the labor of the blacks to enrich themselves, it was rather fitting in the wisdom of God that they should suffer the same at the hands of the carpet baggers... Of course that doesn't excuse the latter, but it does show the hand of God at work...

"Proverbs 21:12 The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness."

"Psalm 7:15-16 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate."

[pneu-engine]

"Psalm 7:15-16 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate."

It reminds me of the story of Haman in the book of Esther. The gallows he built to have Mordecai executed::::::; We know who got hanged.

[John81]

You don't see that in many ways it was Gods justice to return the souths own actions upon its head? Considering Lee and other southerners did not object to stealing the labor of the blacks to enrich themselves, it was rather fitting in the wisdom of God that they should suffer the same at the hands of the carpet baggers... Of course that doesn't excuse the latter, but it does show the hand of God at work...

"Proverbs 21:12 The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness."

"Psalm 7:15-16 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate."

Read the Bible, slavery is not a sin.

The fact one nation wins or loses a war is no sign that either was morally right or wrong or that either side was being blessed or punished by God. God's ways are no our ways; we must remember that; and God doesn't always reveal His reasoning for things to us.

Why do some fine men of God suffer horrible cancer? Why did the wicked Soviet Union come out of WWII the greatest winner? Why were the Aztecs allowed to have a large empire? Why were John and Betty Stram martyred? Why do wicked nations control most of the oil?

There are also matters that we can see reasons for now but such was not always the case. As with regards to why the Greeks were allowed to spread their empire and ways...and the Romans dominated for centuries. Looking back we can see the hand of God in this but prior to being able to look back in perspective, such couldn't be known. Why were the English allowed to dominate the world, controlling about two-thirds of the world at one time? Why did the American colonies revolt against England but the Canadian colonies remain loyal to England?

One might consider the great testimony that came forth for the cause of Christ out of The War. During that time there was a great revival throughout the South. During the dark times of wicked Reconstruction it was their faith in God which brought them through. Consider the many great preachers who came forth out of the South and the tens of thousands of souls they helped to bring to Christ. Consider the example and witness provided for the rest of the country from the Bible Belt as a testimony against the wicked.

I don't know all the answers to how God determines the course of human events save to know that all things will work out to His glory, and that's enough for me.

Slavery is not a sin. Slavery was not a unique American experience. Slavery was not worse in America than other countries. Slavery was not the reason for God's blessing or curse in America. Other nations ended slavery peacefully and with consideration for all parties involved for their well being. Would that cooler heads had prevailed and the same would have been manifested here.

[deafnva77]

God does not want people to be slaves, but if they had to be one, the masters had specific instructions how to treat the slaves properly.


When they mistreated them, God punished them. Look how the egyptian treated the isrealite (although this suppose to be a picture of Christ). God got them out. And yes, in America, slaves were treated horribly so He did get them out the worst way. Now while I support the state rights, I do think this war was meant to happen.

[HappyChristian]

Sorry, Seth, but I don't believe that the "painful discipline" RE Lee was talking about was the beatings, etc. that were supposedly done all over the south, "proven" by Uncle Tom's Cabin. No, I think he had more in mind the idea that it was the slavery itself that was the painful discipline. Much like the slavery we here in America will be undergoing soon if socialism wins the day.

Clear back to our founding fathers, slavery as practiced here in America was repugnant to many, many people. And in RE Lee's letter, I think it's clear that he knew the end would come....and that doing so by force of arms would be more harmful to the slaves!!

As I mentioned in another post, slavery was on its way out - slowly, yes, but it was on its way. The thing that so many people fail to understand is that the war was not started because of slavery. Lincoln didn't even like black people!!! And slavery didn't become an issue in the war, in Lincoln's case, until furthur into it...kinda like a political thing, rather than a moral thing...

South Carolina seceded before Lincoln became POTUS (the year before). Buchanan did not deal with it - and, really, there was nothing he could legitimately, constitutionally do. So, it fell in Lincoln's lap. Others seceded after Lincoln was elected. They were no longer a part of the US. But Lincoln labeled them rebel states. His emancipation proclamation stated that slaves were free in only certain states...including the seceded states, over which he had no authority. BUT! The slaves in the northern states weren't emancipated. Interesting, eh? The modern myth of the north today is that Lincoln freed the slaves. No, he didn't. He "freed" a select few.

Many slaveholders were teaching the slaves how to read. Northerners didn't do much of that. Had things been allowed to continue, slavery would slowly have been abolished. Had Buchanan and then Lincoln upheld the constitution (plus removed occupying soldiers from the two southern forts they were in), the civil war would never have taken place, the CSA probably would have rejoined the USA eventually and racism wouldn't have the horrid story it has here in America.

[PastorHarrison]

I don't want to get us bogged down in an endless discussion off topic, but if God doesn't want people to be slaves.....the O.T. has about 6000 yrs of questionable practices which God sanctioned up one side and down the other. His #1 fav-o-rite punishment was enslavement and subjection of races under the iron yoke of other nations. Israel didn't just blunder into Egypt....and the 400 yrs (to pick just one of countless examples) wasn't a Ko-inky-dink.

No...I am not sanctioning slavery, I abhor it, but John is right when he said - Slavery isnt a sin. You have to staple your Bible shut and just plant flowers till the rapture if you want God to be against slavery.

Notwithstanding I do think it was a horrible mistake for America to get into Slavery...but let me also point out that every slave that ever came to america came on a Ship to North and was then shipped south by train and river.

[heartstrings]

Sorry' date=' Seth, but I don't believe that the "painful discipline" RE Lee was talking about was the beatings, etc. that were supposedly done all over the south, "proven" by [i']Uncle Tom's Cabin. No, I think he had more in mind the idea that it was the slavery itself that was the painful discipline. Much like the slavery we here in America will be undergoing soon if socialism wins the day.

Clear back to our founding fathers, slavery as practiced here in America was repugnant to many, many people. And in RE Lee's letter, I think it's clear that he knew the end would come....and that doing so by force of arms would be more harmful to the slaves!!

As I mentioned in another post, slavery was on its way out - slowly, yes, but it was on its way. The thing that so many people fail to understand is that the war was not started because of slavery. Lincoln didn't even like black people!!! And slavery didn't become an issue in the war, in Lincoln's case, until furthur into it...kinda like a political thing, rather than a moral thing...

South Carolina seceded before Lincoln became POTUS (the year before). Buchanan did not deal with it - and, really, there was nothing he could legitimately, constitutionally do. So, it fell in Lincoln's lap. Others seceded after Lincoln was elected. They were no longer a part of the US. But Lincoln labeled them rebel states. His emancipation proclamation stated that slaves were free in only certain states...including the seceded states, over which he had no authority. BUT! The slaves in the northern states weren't emancipated. Interesting, eh? The modern myth of the north today is that Lincoln freed the slaves. No, he didn't. He "freed" a select few.

Many slaveholders were teaching the slaves how to read. Northerners didn't do much of that. Had things been allowed to continue, slavery would slowly have been abolished. Had Buchanan and then Lincoln upheld the constitution (plus removed occupying soldiers from the two southern forts they were in), the civil war would never have taken place, the CSA probably would have rejoined the USA eventually and.racism wouldn't have the horrid story it has here in America

I have to agree with most everthing you said,
That's the sad part of it all. I firmly believe that we wouldn't be having the cries of "racism" we have today and people like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would not be public figures, had blacks immigrated as FREE men and not slaves. And since they didn't, it still would have been much better to free them willingly and "phase it out". Multitudes of people wouldn't have lost their lives, and there would have been no carpetbaggers. But the simple fact is.....there should have been no slavery to begin with in the very country which is supposed to be founded on freedom and liberty. But there was. And they had more than ample opportunity to remedy the situation, they had been reproved for YEARS and still did not let them go. When LEE himself inherited almost 200 slaves(who had been given freedom in the will), he had a legal right to hold them for another 5 years and work them.... so He did. Why didn't he see that they got some homestead land and just set them free?

Pro 22:16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his [riches, and] he that giveth to the rich, [shall] surely [come] to want.

So, there you have it folks. The rich men thought they were superior to the poor men, so they worked 'em hard and lived like kings off the profits. Whipped them when they got unruly, practiced a littl 'selective breeding' and even fathered 'mulatto' babies off their women, then they oppressed those as well. But with all the warnings, they refused to let them go. So maybe God was tightening the screws up on them when the North started imposing those tarrifs on their cotton exports. But they still didn't take the hint, wouldn't let go of ther sin.....so they let the country slip into the most horrible war in American History, and guess who got stuck with giving their lives for 'the cause'? The same one it always is; the poor man who didn't even own any slaves. But I have to ask, if 'the cause' was so righteous, why did we have 'Jim Crow' laws after the war, and why did they shun them and why was N****** such a common word when we know they don't like it and why do so many still get disgusted when they see a black married to a white?

Many slaveholders were teaching the slaves how to read.

Then you have Masters who raised slaves as their own children, like George Washington Carver was. A few years ago, I took my family to the GWC museum at Tuskeegee University; He was a great man. And I believe God honours those who honour Him.
Pro 14:31 He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

[JerryNumbers]

I don't want to get us bogged down in an endless discussion off topic, but if God doesn't want people to be slaves.....the O.T. has about 6000 yrs of questionable practices which God sanctioned up one side and down the other. His #1 fav-o-rite punishment was enslavement and subjection of races under the iron yoke of other nations. Israel didn't just blunder into Egypt....and the 400 yrs (to pick just one of countless examples) wasn't a Ko-inky-dink.

No...I am not sanctioning slavery, I abhor it, but John is right when he said - Slavery isnt a sin. You have to staple your Bible shut and just plant flowers till the rapture if you want God to be against slavery.

Notwithstanding I do think it was a horrible mistake for America to get into Slavery...but let me also point out that every slave that ever came to america came on a Ship to North and was then shipped south by train and river.

Both you and John are right, but many just cannot see it. Right now the political correct thing is to stand 100% against slavery and praise President Lincoln and state the Civil war was ONLY over slavery, which is untrue.

[deafnva77]

I'm not saying He wasn't against it. Some people became servants because of their debt.

[heartstrings]

Both you and John are right, but many just cannot see it. Right now the political correct thing is to stand 100% against slavery and praise President Lincoln and state the Civil war was ONLY over slavery, which is untrue.

Sarah had a "handmaid", look what trouble that led to. God also allowed a 'writing of divorcement' but did He sanction it? What all those wives Solomon had, did God sancion that? No sir, He did not. God allowed his people to do things, but that don't mean he sanctioned it.

Suppose you are my slave, and you decide to run away; what would I have to do to get you back? What would I have to do to keep you? Suppose you decided one day that you were going to defy me and refuse to work? After all, for you to serve me, you have to work. What would I have to do to make you work? Don't say "pay you"...remember, you are my slave....Seems to me, for me to make you work and remain my slave, some kind of ENFORCEMENT would be involved, huh?

Pro 22:16 He that oppresseth the poor to increase his [riches, and] he that giveth to the rich, [shall] surely [come] to want.

[deafnva77]

well, if you have a debt to pay and couldn't pay back, and refuse to be a servant to pay off your debt, you probably had to go to jail or something Or lose everything, so sometimes they do need a place to stay. I can imagine people became servants because they had no place to stay. The only problem is that people treated black slaves as property instead of human. They buy and sell them. Separated them from their family and loved ones as if they were horses. Can you imagine a black slave man married to a black woman.. had children... and all a sudden the master sold him off to someone else. Take the black woman's children away and sold them off too.. and the family was forever separated and lost.

[heartstrings]

Alot of people STILL believe that the 'Curse of Canaan' justified black slavery. But that is twisting scripture. I think if enough Southern planters had studied the Book of Philemon and got right with God, they might have averted alot of sin and suffering.

[John81]

Sorry' date=' Seth, but I don't believe that the "painful discipline" RE Lee was talking about was the beatings, etc. that were supposedly done all over the south, "proven" by [i']Uncle Tom's Cabin. No, I think he had more in mind the idea that it was the slavery itself that was the painful discipline. Much like the slavery we here in America will be undergoing soon if socialism wins the day.

Clear back to our founding fathers, slavery as practiced here in America was repugnant to many, many people. And in RE Lee's letter, I think it's clear that he knew the end would come....and that doing so by force of arms would be more harmful to the slaves!!

As I mentioned in another post, slavery was on its way out - slowly, yes, but it was on its way. The thing that so many people fail to understand is that the war was not started because of slavery. Lincoln didn't even like black people!!! And slavery didn't become an issue in the war, in Lincoln's case, until furthur into it...kinda like a political thing, rather than a moral thing...

South Carolina seceded before Lincoln became POTUS (the year before). Buchanan did not deal with it - and, really, there was nothing he could legitimately, constitutionally do. So, it fell in Lincoln's lap. Others seceded after Lincoln was elected. They were no longer a part of the US. But Lincoln labeled them rebel states. His emancipation proclamation stated that slaves were free in only certain states...including the seceded states, over which he had no authority. BUT! The slaves in the northern states weren't emancipated. Interesting, eh? The modern myth of the north today is that Lincoln freed the slaves. No, he didn't. He "freed" a select few.

Many slaveholders were teaching the slaves how to read. Northerners didn't do much of that. Had things been allowed to continue, slavery would slowly have been abolished. Had Buchanan and then Lincoln upheld the constitution (plus removed occupying soldiers from the two southern forts they were in), the civil war would never have taken place, the CSA probably would have rejoined the USA eventually and racism wouldn't have the horrid story it has here in America.

Excellent post LuAnne!

Jefferson Davis, President of the CSA, had been preparing his slaves for freedom before The War. He had established schools and a governmental body among the slaves to prepare them for freedom. General Jackson taught free and slave blacks to read and conducted Bible studies for them. General Lee welcomed blacks into the church he attended as well as worked behind the scenes attempting to end slavery.

True enough, some slaves were mistreated just as some laborors for hire were mistreated during that time.

Have you ever read the Slave Narratives? The reason these narratives were commissioned by the US congress was in order to record the thoughts and views of former slaves; with the hope of being able to use such against the South and others. However, because so many former slaves spoke of how kind their masters were, of how they missed their old way of life, of how many proclaimed that their life in slavery was far better than their life of freedom, of how many who talked about being considered a part of their former masters families, and such, the Slave Narratives were put upon the shelf rather than given wide publication and attention as originally planned.

Had slavery ended in America peacefully and in a phased and planned out manner, as other countries did, we would not have had the horrible racial problems in this country that we have.

[John81]

I don't want to get us bogged down in an endless discussion off topic, but if God doesn't want people to be slaves.....the O.T. has about 6000 yrs of questionable practices which God sanctioned up one side and down the other. His #1 fav-o-rite punishment was enslavement and subjection of races under the iron yoke of other nations. Israel didn't just blunder into Egypt....and the 400 yrs (to pick just one of countless examples) wasn't a Ko-inky-dink.

No...I am not sanctioning slavery, I abhor it, but John is right when he said - Slavery isnt a sin. You have to staple your Bible shut and just plant flowers till the rapture if you want God to be against slavery.

Notwithstanding I do think it was a horrible mistake for America to get into Slavery...but let me also point out that every slave that ever came to america came on a Ship to North and was then shipped south by train and river.

[heartstrings]

Excellent post LuAnne!

Jefferson Davis, President of the CSA, had been preparing his slaves for freedom before The War. He had established schools and a governmental body among the slaves to prepare them for freedom. General Jackson taught free and slave blacks to read and conducted Bible studies for them. General Lee welcomed blacks into the church he attended as well as worked behind the scenes attempting to end slavery.

True enough, some slaves were mistreated just as some laborors for hire were mistreated during that time.

Have you ever read the Slave Narratives? The reason these narratives were commissioned by the US congress was in order to record the thoughts and views of former slaves; with the hope of being able to use such against the South and others. However, because so many former slaves spoke of how kind their masters were, of how they missed their old way of life, of how many proclaimed that their life in slavery was far better than their life of freedom, of how many who talked about being considered a part of their former masters families, and such, the Slave Narratives were put upon the shelf rather than given wide publication and attention as originally planned.

Had slavery ended in America peacefully and in a phased and planned out manner, as other countries did, we would not have had the horrible racial problems in this country that we have.

Yes, but it didn't end that way, so what can we do about that now? As you stated, there were some people who were serving God and making a difference back then, Like I said above, the scientist George Washington Carver was a result of that. Is it going to amount to a hill of beans if you tell any black people you know "see here folks....General Lee was a good Christian man(not doubting that he was) and look here....some of the Masters were good men and were nice to the slaves" Friend, they don't want to hear it, they might just laugh at you. The only thing that's going to make any difference RIGHT NOW is how you and I treat them RIGHT NOW.