Hand holding....

[pneu-engine]

I appreciate your sincerity, DW, the only thing is it doesn't match up with God's pure and holy Word. You emphasize love, love, love, but again at the expense of the Truth. Very simply, and it is so simple even a child can understand it. It goes like this:::::

#1. Yes, communicate with your kids on a continual basis out of a heart full of love and compassion, precisely as God does with us. This is why He gave us His Word. However, NEVER dice up the Truth and sift and sort it out at the expense of love.

#2. Make sure everything that is said to your child matches perfectly with the Word of God. The Bible (KJV for us English speaking people) is the final authority for faith and practice, and don't second guess it or modify it.

#3. Practice what you preach. If you preach the Truth to your kids, make sure you also live by it and apologize to them when you fail, and mean it.

#4. Pray with and for your kids. It's good for your kids see and hear you when you go to God asking His forgiveness for your failures. We all have them.

#5. When the Bible says don't touch a woman, it means just that, and let's not get ridiculous and say that hand-shaking is the same as hand-holding.

#6. Be pro-active. You know these things are going to occur in your kids' lives. Read and study out all the precepts with your kids that have to do with this issue before they are needed. Prevention is better than a cure.

I'm not trying to be hard on you, DW, but we must never alter the Truth for the sake of love. Love without the purity of Truth is not love at all.

[dwayner79]

Hey PE,

Thanks for the note. I am not sure where the problem is.

#1 - Amen

#2 - Amen (minus the KJV for me, but whatever)

#3 - AMEN

#4 - Amen

#5 - I'm not sure of your meaning. If you mean teach them that when the Bible says do not touch it is not talking about shaking hands, but about touching that has sexual ties to it, then AMEN!!!

#6 - Amen.

Again, I am not sure how you were hard on me... I do emphasize Love, love love... but not at all at the expense of God truth. Funny thing is love love love and God's truth match up pretty close. That said, I am not sure where love, love, love came into my post. Perhaps you are referring to the love of a father who waits for the wayward son, or the love of a father that responds in turn to a son's maturity, or the love of a father that has the hard conversations with the son, and helps them through dealing with purity.

PE, If I can guess you are hung up on the "holding hands." As we know that is not an avoidance of physical contact, but a removal of physical contact that has to do with sexual contact (even in small degrees). I would say that if you did not give your heart away to a person, you would not be holding their hand. I am trying to direct this conversation (or at least my posts) to the inward response to God. The fact is holding hands may or may not be a sign of inward rebellion/lust/etc. The real issue is how to safeguard ourselves from lust and rebellion, and the ROI to a banning of hand holding is rather small while a proper understanding of not giving our heart away (or as SoS says, not "awaking love until its time") brings real, true reform to a persons heart.

[Guest Guest]

If you are going to rip that verse out of context, at least be consistent and rip it entirely out of context. You say that it says that a man cannot touch a woman, and that it means just that. First of all, it says it is good for a man not to touch a woman. I doesn't say he cannot. However, that is not my point. My point is that the context is fornication. Holding hands is not committing fornication. And yes, if you take it to mean no touching, then no touching means no touching, and last I knew, in order to shake a guys hand, I have to touch him...at least be consistent...

Or, try this...

The context is fornication, however you all are ignoring the context. It says it is good for a man not to touch a woman, so does that mean a married man can't touch his wife either?

If you insist on taking something out of context, be consistent and take it the whole way.

Yes, guys in particular can be perverts...but there comes a time when parents need to trust their adult children to make their own decisions. They need to trust that they love the Lord enough not to do anything wrong. Because no matter how sexually charged they are, if they love the Lord enough and their relationship with Him is strong and they are in the Word every day like they should be, then they will not mess up just because they held hands or hugged. The heart is wicked, but our love for Christ is supposed to constrain us to do right. It is possible for saved children to do right because of the new nature in them.

Katy-Anne

[kevinmiller]

:goodpost: Dwayne.

[kevinmiller]

If you are going to rip that verse out of context, at least be consistent and rip it entirely out of context. You say that it says that a man cannot touch a woman, and that it means just that. First of all, it says it is good for a man not to touch a woman. I doesn't say he cannot. However, that is not my point. My point is that the context is fornication. Holding hands is not committing fornication. And yes, if you take it to mean no touching, then no touching means no touching, and last I knew, in order to shake a guys hand, I have to touch him...at least be consistent...

Or, try this...

The context is fornication, however you all are ignoring the context. It says it is good for a man not to touch a woman, so does that mean a married man can't touch his wife either?

If you insist on taking something out of context, be consistent and take it the whole way.

Yes, guys in particular can be perverts...but there comes a time when parents need to trust their adult children to make their own decisions. They need to trust that they love the Lord enough not to do anything wrong. Because no matter how sexually charged they are, if they love the Lord enough and their relationship with Him is strong and they are in the Word every day like they should be, then they will not mess up just because they held hands or hugged. The heart is wicked, but our love for Christ is supposed to constrain us to do right. It is possible for saved children to do right because of the new nature in them.

Katy-Anne

There is nothing Biblical about this post and I think Dwayne summed all of these things up pretty well.

[Guest Guest]

Nothing Biblical? What about where the Bible talks about our new nature? When we get saved we are new creatures? If we feed the spirit more than the flesh the spirit will win. It's totally Biblical.

Katy-Anne

[HappyChristian]

Of course you think he's right, he says its okay to kiss guys. I'd have loved hearing him preach when I was your age. :lol

I'm sure he's a good person and has a good family, but that doesn't mean everyone can handle his standard of living...and if dad says "no" its "NO" no matter what Gipp or anyone else thinks is okay. Gipp can only raise HIS kids, and what works for him won't work for everyone else.

You know, I know a lot of preachers, have heard most of them preach on rearing kids. And many of these preachers I have met more than once, and know a good number of them well. And they have raised their kids to be godly. The interesting thing is, they all preach and teach NO touching and NO kissing outside of marriage. And their kids are living for the Lord. Hmmmmm - I don't think Br. Gipp has all the answers - and I most certainly don't agree with him.

Suzy is right, each person rears their own children. And it must be in the light of God's Word.

I told my husband and son about this thread. My husband understands the heartbreak that this father is going through. And my son understands what the son is going through.

The interesting thing is that my son feels very badly for the son - not because his father is a mean ole daddy who doesn't trust his son or want him to be an adult and make his own decision. No, my son feels bad for the son because he's been where this young man is. He's been drawn to a girl who is not interested in doing what's right. He's been drawn to a girl who did her best to come between a solid relationship between father and son. He's been drawn to a girl who did her best to draw him away from church. He's been drawn to a girl who did her best to draw him away from God. And her mommy gave her permission. He saw the absolute heartbreak that we went through. He knew all along it was wrong. Why was it wrong? Because daddy didn't pick her out? No - it was wrong because she was not saved, did not love the Lord, did not want to know anything about the Lord, and encouraged him to go against the wishes of his parents, thus dishonoring us - all in direct disobedience to the Bible.

You young ladies that seem to feel that you know the answers to raising kids - give them freedom at 18 because they are legally adult and we can trust them - don't understand human nature, don't understand a male teen's hormones, and you don't understand the importance of obeying the Word of God in relation to parents (well, obeying the Word in everything, but this thread is not about everything :smile ).

KJB Princess, I am so glad that you have a good relationship with your parents. And much of what you said is right. Parents do need to be a good example, a godly one. But when you accuse a parent of micromanaging because they have house rules (I know you didn't say that, but that was the implication with your use of the word micromanaging...my boss is micromanaging, and believe me, telling your kids how to behave comes nowhere near it!), you overstep yourself. Katey-Anne, I am sorry that your relationship with your parents is not better. And I am glad that hand-holding did not go further with you and your hubby - but that doesn't mean that this father is wrong for wanting the highest for his son - the highest being to avoid the lusts of the flesh at all cost - even that of holding hands with his girl.

heartstrings, I just wanted you to know that my husband is praying for you and yours in this - and my son is too. My son even said that if you wanted, he would email your son. PM me if you are interested, and I'll let my son know.

PE, If I can guess you are hung up on the "holding hands." As we know that is not an avoidance of physical contact, but a removal of physical contact that has to do with sexual contact (even in small degrees). I would say that if you did not give your heart away to a person, you would not be holding their hand. I am trying to direct this conversation (or at least my posts) to the inward response to God. The fact is holding hands may or may not be a sign of inward rebellion/lust/etc. The real issue is how to safeguard ourselves from lust and rebellion, and the ROI to a banning of hand holding is rather small while a proper understanding of not giving our heart away (or as SoS says, not "awaking love until its time") brings real, true reform to a persons heart.

dwayner, you are right that we must not give our hearts away. The real issue is safeguarding...and that is what this father is doing. If your son came to you and discussed this with you with the attitude you described, if you wanted to okay his hand holding, that would be your decision. But each father must decide for his own house (I know you know that! :smile ). This boy has become rebellious - not because his daddy said don't hold hands, but because he has been encouraged in rebellion against his dad and what he has always been taught.

And Katy-Anne - we do have a new nature. But we also still have our sin nature. Remember Paul said, "I die daily." He was dying to his flesh.

[kevinmiller]

Nothing Biblical? What about where the Bible talks about our new nature? When we get saved we are new creatures? If we feed the spirit more than the flesh the spirit will win. It's totally Biblical.

Katy-Anne

Okay, so we are allowed to feed the flesh as long as we feed the spirit more? So long as we keep the spirit stronger, we can gratify the flesh? Um...sorry, not Biblical.

*edit: Luanne.

[HappyChristian]

I guess I'll contribute my "2 cents" which isn't worth all that much....anyhow, I'm still living at home, and according to the Bible I am to be obedient to my parents in the Lord. I am also to honour them. I am to honour and obey even when I think what they are asking is too strict. Obeying my parents is part of being obedient to my Lord. I am 22 years old, and I live under my parent's authority. I view being obedient to my parents as a way to honour God.

As far as hand-holding goes....this is something that the couple needs to discuss. Is it something that both of them can do while still keeping pure in their mind and heart? If either person has a problem with this it is to be avoided. My parents don't let me out alone with a guy (I'm either with them, friends, or in a very public place), so I never have to worry about things going too far. I don't believe in dating anyone unless you know that they are the one the Lord has for you. There is no need to be with someone "in a relationship" unless marriage is the common goal in mind for you both. Otherwise you just have a lot of baggage hanging on for when you do meet the one.

joyfulpraise, there's alot of wisdom in your words. The only thing I would add is that hand-holding, etc., really should be discussed with the parents as well. If all of you are in agreement, great. BUT if one of the fathers disagrees, then it shouldn't be done.

Your last statement said a mouthful!!! AMEN.

[dwayner79]

The interesting thing is that my son feels very badly for the son - not because his father is a mean ole daddy who doesn't trust his son or want him to be an adult and make his own decision. No, my son feels bad for the son because he's been where this young man is. He's been drawn to a girl who is not interested in doing what's right. He's been drawn to a girl who did her best to come between a solid relationship between father and son. He's been drawn to a girl who did her best to draw him away from church. He's been drawn to a girl who did her best to draw him away from God. And her mommy gave her permission. He saw the absolute heartbreak that we went through. He knew all along it was wrong. Why was it wrong? Because daddy didn't pick her out? No - it was wrong because she was not saved, did not love the Lord, did not want to know anything about the Lord, and encouraged him to go against the wishes of his parents, thus dishonoring us - all in direct disobedience to the Bible.

This was my response as well... Great posting LuAnne

[Guest Guest]

Holding hands isn't feeding the flesh and you can't prove it is. We will be allowing our kids to do it...and yes...I do have one on the way and we'll allow him, whether it is a boy or a girl, to hold hands. We'll teach our baby right and wrong, but we don't want to be telling it what to do it's entire life. If our child wants our advice, we'll give it, but we're not going to be breathing down the poor kids throat.

My husband's parents weren't entirely happy with the hand holding but told him that he was an adult so they respected that and that he needed to do what he felt was right before the Lord. They did ask if we went any further than hugging to not do it in front of his little brothers and sisters...and we respected that because they respected us as adults and trusted us to do the right thing.

Katy-Anne

[Guest Guest]

When I say we won't be telling our child what to do so much anymore I mean like after age 17 or so...we'll be wanting them to start making their own decisions.

Katy-Anne

[HappyChristian]

Holding hands isn't feeding the flesh and you can't prove it is. We will be allowing our kids to do it...and yes...I do have one on the way and we'll allow him, whether it is a boy or a girl, to hold hands. We'll teach our baby right and wrong, but we don't want to be telling it what to do it's entire life. If our child wants our advice, we'll give it, but we're not going to be breathing down the poor kids throat.

My husband's parents weren't entirely happy with the hand holding but told him that he was an adult so they respected that and that he needed to do what he felt was right before the Lord. They did ask if we went any further than hugging to not do it in front of his little brothers and sisters...and we respected that because they respected us as adults and trusted us to do the right thing.

Katy-Anne

You just aren't getting it, are you? If the father forbids holding hands and it is done anyway
it is feeding the flesh because it is REBELLION. Many times when young people hold hands, the barrier is broken and more follows - just as it has in this case. Kudos to you that it didn't with you. Your husband's father gave tacit permission for him to hold your hand by telling him that he was an adult. Good. The key here is that you respected his parents' wishes. Why can you not extend that grace to the father in this situation?

But teaching a child to avoid hand-holding is a decision that each father must make on his own (albeit with input from his wife, but the decision is his) and that decision must stand - and we shouldn't criticize or rebuke a father for house rules he has instituted by God's leading. It's his house and he will stand before God and answer for it - any of the men on this forum who are married, or ever will be are in that position. All of the husbands represented by the women on this forum are in that position.

Katy-Anne, I am so glad for you that you are going to have a child. It is one of the most joyous things we can go through. It is a hard row to hoe, but it is a delightful one, as well. There will be times of heartbreak and frustration, but if you and hubby follow God's Word in the rearing, there will be times of great joy as well. If your husband feels that it is okay for your kids to hold hands, that is his decision. Whether or not anyone agrees with it. Same for the father in the OP.

Our son has made a lot of his own decisions. Not always right, but then neither do we. But as good parents do, we try to guide him. I think you'll see that when your kids are that age - it's easy to say "We're going to let them..." when they are either little or not born yet. Time and experience are great teachers and many of us changed as we and our children got older.

[kevinmiller]

Holding hands isn't feeding the flesh and you can't prove it is. We will be allowing our kids to do it...and yes...I do have one on the way and we'll allow him, whether it is a boy or a girl, to hold hands. We'll teach our baby right and wrong, but we don't want to be telling it what to do it's entire life. If our child wants our advice, we'll give it, but we're not going to be breathing down the poor kids throat.

That is a very childish statement. The truth is, holding hands is a sign of intimacy with that person and intimacy in any form should be reserved until marriage. You are still two separate beings until marriage. You may be in love, but you should still conduct yourself appropriately as you would with any other person of the opposite sex.

My husband's parents weren't entirely happy with the hand holding but told him that he was an adult so they respected that and that he needed to do what he felt was right before the Lord. They did ask if we went any further than hugging to not do it in front of his little brothers and sisters...and we respected that because they respected us as adults and trusted us to do the right thing.

Katy-Anne

Personally, I think that if his parents' didn't approve, he shouldn't have been doing it. He was still under his parents' direct authority and should have honored it. Whether our parents allow us to "be adults" and make our own decisions, we are still individually responsible to honor their wishes whether they enforce them or not.

[Guest Guest]

Kevin, his parents didn't like it, but told him to do it anyway if he wanted to...he was obeying. They said they couldn't tell him not to do it because #1 he's and adult, and #2 they did it themselves and made it to marriage without going further.

What the father in this case needs to realize is that his child is all grown up and is gonna do what he wants anyways whether legalistic rules are enforced on him or not.

Katy-Anne