How long are your services?

[John81]

Service typically starts around 10.45' date=' and ends around 12.30 to 12.45.[/quote']

Most Americans won't sit still that long unless they are watching a movie or ballgame. :sad

[qwerty guy]

Sitting 2 hours is one thing.. but sitting 2 hours when the whole point was given in 10 min and then the rest is just re-attacking the point from 10,000 directions...

[ltl]

Well, worship (offerings, singing, etc. etc plus the monthly Lord's Supper) usually lasts till 11.30. Sermons usually last about 45 minutes to slightly more than an hour.

It's not really about the length that counts - I'd rather prefer a relevant and solid 30-minute sermon than a 1.5 hour long sermon that mainly covers life stories, examples and numerous digressions.

[qwerty guy]

I'd rather prefer a relevant and solid 30-minute sermon than a 1.5 hour long sermon that mainly covers life stories' date=' examples and numerous digressions.[/quote']

Bingo

[dwayner79]

Quite simple Kelvin, that is the only reason I know of for anyone not wanting to Gospel of Jesus Christ preached.

If you've got a very good reason for it not to be presented, please state it.

But 1st let me tell you, I know hundreds of good solid Christians who would completely disagree with you just as Jerry and I have.

By the way, the Gospel of Jesus Christ can be built into every message and still feed the flock.

What woudl be sad is for a pastor to take your advice and not present it and someone walk out lost having missed what could be the last and only opportunity for them to accept Jesus as their Savior and be doomed to hell for eternity. How would you like to have that own your shoulder, or have their blood on your hands? I know I don't want to and I know the other Jerry does not want to either.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Luke 15:7 (KJV)

10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
Luke 15:10 (KJV)

Jerry8,

You and I do not see eye to eye on a lot of things, so I do not expect to change your mind, and I respectfully am asking that you hear me out. I only want to present plainly and simply why someone would not expect a evangelical sermon every time they are at church. So please, friend, oblige me a few moments.

There are three reasons, IMO, why every service should not be evangelistic.

1. A differing view of the sovereignty of God. From a reformed POV, there is a trust in God's sovereignty that is lacking in typical baptist doctrine. If salvation is of the Lord, and He is the one who elects, saves, justifies, and glorifies, then there is a freedom from the need to over evagelize the scriptures. I would not expect non-reformers to adhere to this one, but as you can see, one can love God, want to see the lost saved, but not feel the need to preach a salvation message each time. (Again, the right or wrongness of this doctrine is not the issue, just the reasons for not needing a salvation sermon every time.)

2. A differing view on the purpose of the Church assembly. As, I believe, kevin is stating, there is biblical support for the church assembly being simply for the church. It is where they come to be encouraged, to grow in their walk, to be edified and built up so that they can leave that place and go into the world to spread the gospel. From one POV, the church is not the place to bring the lost... the home is. You invite them into your home (or you go to theirs) and you preach the gospel there.

3. A different view of Bible Study. Using proper hermeneutics, you cannot find "Jesus in every passage". You can twist, and overgeneralize, and conjecture, and allagorize (is that even a word) your way to Jesus in every passage, but that is poor hermeneutics. Not every passage is an explicitly evangelistic one. If a pastor is properly preaching through scripture, he will preach the next passage. As often as the passage is explicitly evangelistic, he will preach evangelistically. As often as the passage is prophetic, he will preach prophetically. As often as the passage talks about right living, he preach on right living. The Bible is perfectly balance, and yet we feel we need to throw out that balance for an evangelistic message every time.

I hold to a little of all three. That said, I do not mind if the pastor says something like, "this passage was given to Christ followers. If you are not one, but want to know how, then come to the front" or even does something evangelistic in the sermon, but I hardly think its required. Anyway, I do not think its fair to assume that anyone who does not think a evangelistic sermon is required also does not care about souls. That is an inaccurate assumption.

Again, I am not trying to fight the merit or demerit of any of those ideologies, simply stating why someone who cares for the lost also feel that evangelistic sermons are not required.

[John81]

Sitting 2 hours is one thing.. but sitting 2 hours when the whole point was given in 10 min and then the rest is just re-attacking the point from 10' date='000 directions...[/quote']

Agreed!

Another of the great things about our pastor is his sermons flow. They have a beginning, a middle and an end that gives a complete message.

I have been in services which seem to have a beginning, then a retelling of that same beginning, followed by stories about the beginning, then a repeat of the beginning followed by more retelling and similar stories.

I would much rather have a 15 minute, to the point sermon than a drawn out sermon that is nothing but rehash after the first five minutes.

Of course, I've also attended services where the pastor quickly bores everyone to death by reading Scripture in a monotone, very dull and dry manner, followed by the pastor repeating the passages he read, but this time in his own words, in the same monotone, very dull and dry manner.

Another good reason why only those called to preach should actually be preaching.

[bzmomo7]

I agree totally. You never know when an unsaved visitor is going to come, and it might be the only time (or even the last time) they have the chance to hear the Gospel presented clearly. Our pastor out in Utah always preached excellent sermons on Sunday morning, and he ALWAYS wound it around to the Gospel and brought it to a meaningful invitation time at the end. His messages were wide and varied, and he used no "filler". I think there must be an "art" to the way he did it--it was never a dumbed down message to the rest of us, yet still coveyed to an unbeliever what he/she needed to hear. I remember thinking when we first went there that an unsaved person would not sit in a pew very many Sundays there and be unsaved...........they'd either get saved or leave because the message was just too convicting. Our pastor was never rude or demanding......he quoted scripture and let the Truth be heard. I'm sorry if there are those who disagree, but that is really how it should be. You must always preach the Truth of the Gospel continually...........the time is too short.

[JerryNumbers]

As previously stated by the other Jerry and even myself, the Gospel of Jesus Christ crucified, can be put into any message that is preached from the pulpit of any church and ought to be there, without the whole message being on the subject of salvation, and thus the church members, those who are saved will get fed the meat of the Word.

But it seems you, Kelvin, and some others cannot see past your very own nose and love nothing better than to mumble about God's called, the pastor of the church, and what God, who has called them to Preach the Gospel from behind the pulpit of Jesus' Churches, just as many did toward Jesus during the time He walked on this earth.

I would suggest to you and any others who feel this way to be very careful about your 2nd guessing God's called and what they expand on from behind the pulpits of Jesus' Church.

One thing I will guarantee you, God's called are privy to much more information from the church members and those setting in that congregation, members and visitors both, listening to what is being said from that pulpit and what needs to be said than anyone who is setting in that congregation, even you are Kelvin.

So I suggest to you and others, let God's called take care of that portion, them if you will take care of your portion properly, do the work God has called you to do & let the pastor do the work God called him to do, and tend to you very own portion, you will not be sticking your nose in between God and His called man who He has placed behind that pulpit.

When you have done that, them and only them will the church your attending and are a member of, be pulling all together in the very same direction. That is my advice to both you and Kelvin, but I already know neither of you are good at taking advice, but real good at murmuring against God's called which is not good at all and thus hinders the work God has for the church y'all are a part of, if that is the way y'all are.

[dwayner79]

[quote="Jerry80871852"]
But it seems you, Kelvin, and some others
[/quote]
Who are you replying to?

[Jerry]

It is easy to touch down on salvation in every service - without necessarily making the whole message about salvation. And yes, you can bring Jesus and salvation into every message easily, regardless of the subject. I have done that for years at the Gospel Mission - without twisting anything. Take whatever message you are covering, and bring it to the cross - whether it is the whole message, or just part of one. If you are preaching for 30-40 minutes, touching down on salvation for five minutes is not that much.

I love Spurgeon for this very reason. He fed his people, but every single message also covered the Gospel to some extent.

As much as someone argues that church is for the saved - even in the Bible, we see the lost there. We see lost family members come with the saved, we see people who profess to be saved but really are not (and do need to be challenged to see if they are saved according to the Bible), and we see visitors whom we have no idea where they are spiritually. Every message can be brought to Jesus and the Gospel - even if only in part.

For example, I covered a message on My Strength, and showed first how we were without strength to keep God's Law and needed a Saviour, then I covered renewed strength, strength for the heart, strength in weakness, strength for the day. Many types can be brought directly to the Saviour and salvation. I tackled a message on the three times the word Abba Father are used, and in the order used, I showed the context and how we can have that closeness and intimacy that God desires to have with us, then I covered the story of the Prodigal Son from the perspective of God as our loving Father. I did a series on the Apostles, and the last message was about Jesus loving them to the end - and how salvation changed each of them, and can change us - so you have solid character studies as well as salvation and growth. It is easy to touch down on salvation in every message, while still keeping with whatever theme or passage you were planning on covering.

[kevinmiller]

Jerry8,

You and I do not see eye to eye on a lot of things, so I do not expect to change your mind, and I respectfully am asking that you hear me out. I only want to present plainly and simply why someone would not expect a evangelical sermon every time they are at church. So please, friend, oblige me a few moments.

There are three reasons, IMO, why every service should not be evangelistic.

1. A differing view of the sovereignty of God. From a reformed POV, there is a trust in God's sovereignty that is lacking in typical baptist doctrine. If salvation is of the Lord, and He is the one who elects, saves, justifies, and glorifies, then there is a freedom from the need to over evagelize the scriptures. I would not expect non-reformers to adhere to this one, but as you can see, one can love God, want to see the lost saved, but not feel the need to preach a salvation message each time. (Again, the right or wrongness of this doctrine is not the issue, just the reasons for not needing a salvation sermon every time.)

2. A differing view on the purpose of the Church assembly. As, I believe, kevin is stating, there is biblical support for the church assembly being simply for the church. It is where they come to be encouraged, to grow in their walk, to be edified and built up so that they can leave that place and go into the world to spread the gospel. From one POV, the church is not the place to bring the lost... the home is. You invite them into your home (or you go to theirs) and you preach the gospel there.

3. A different view of Bible Study. Using proper hermeneutics, you cannot find "Jesus in every passage". You can twist, and overgeneralize, and conjecture, and allagorize (is that even a word) your way to Jesus in every passage, but that is poor hermeneutics. Not every passage is an explicitly evangelistic one. If a pastor is properly preaching through scripture, he will preach the next passage. As often as the passage is explicitly evangelistic, he will preach evangelistically. As often as the passage is prophetic, he will preach prophetically. As often as the passage talks about right living, he preach on right living. The Bible is perfectly balance, and yet we feel we need to throw out that balance for an evangelistic message every time.

I hold to a little of all three. That said, I do not mind if the pastor says something like, "this passage was given to Christ followers. If you are not one, but want to know how, then come to the front" or even does something evangelistic in the sermon, but I hardly think its required. Anyway, I do not think its fair to assume that anyone who does not think a evangelistic sermon is required also does not care about souls. That is an inaccurate assumption.

Again, I am not trying to fight the merit or demerit of any of those ideologies, simply stating why someone who cares for the lost also feel that evangelistic sermons are not required.

It hinges on having a proper view of what the Church is. The local church is for the gathering of the believers and evangelism is not supposed to be for the church, which is made up of Christians. If there is someone that is unsaved within the actual gathering, that is why focusing on building relationships is important, so that you can know where everyone is at in their spiritual walk and reach out to them on a personal level. The preaching is not supposed to be geared towards the unsaved. I can understand it if it were on occasion, but most certainly not in every message. The church is for the saved.

Btw, I can not, for the life of me, figure out who "Kelvin" is. Anybody know? :frog

[Guest Guest]

Btw, I can not, for the life of me, figure out who "Kelvin" is. Anybody know?

He is a unit of temperature measurement.

Seriously, I agree the primary reason for a church is to aide the Spiritual growth of believers. That said, every church tends to have more than a few tares in it just like Jesus said it would. Over the years I have seen more than a few long term church members actually get saved under salvation messages. Till Jesus comes there will be lost people in the church and they should hear the gospel message. Some may get saved, some may not, but it should not be just taken for granted that everyone in church has already applied the gospel even if they have a mental knowledge. I fully understand the reasoning of those that attempt put the gospel into the service that lost people are most likely to be at, Sunday morning.

[RayJr]

Kevin man you frustrate me so by insisting that the unsaved have no place in church. My children before they were saved were in church should I have left them at home, they got saved because they were in church learning about God. Bro. Russel a man at my church attended two services before he got saved last week. Why do you think the salvation and just the attendance is not uplifting to the saints of God. I know when we have visitors it does my soul well. I know you r in a mega church do you really believe everyone there is saved.

I believe our main job on earth is to bring people to Christ to see souls saved, basically to serve God. Our main purpose is not to make each other feel good.

[Madeline]

If any group of Christians prefer to speak to the unbelievers among them in their meetings, they have that right. There is an early example that Christians were told by Paul to consider the unbelievers who come to the Christian meetings....that is good advice for every generation. (1 Cor.14:23). It has nothing to do with God being God. He created human beings with free will. Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom. 10:17). It is not God's fault when people are lost. His Will is that NONE should perish (2 Pet. 3:9). The only way that people are lost is because they refuse to listen and obey Him. He decreed that people would come to Him (have that opportunity) BY the hearing of the Word of God. Many Christians misunderstand God's sovereignty. God is in control of His own Will and He has willed that Man has free will (He doesn't progam us with faith, He persuades us to believe the witness of Christ).

Love,
Madeline

[RayJr]

our church services are normally from 1hr 30min to 1hr45min not nearly long enough, but I believe we'd have to have a 15 min respit to give the pastor abreak.,