Are Proverbs promises?

[Annie]

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Not all of them are written like promises - most of them are pithy statements of wisdom. There are some' date=' however, that are promises. Such as "He that being often reproved hardeneth his neck shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." That's a promise to those who resist God and resist God...and anyone of us could probably give testament to the truth of this. If this verse is a principle that can be applied to our lives, then it has to be a promise. No answer was given yet as to what the principle is if it's not a promise. The principle is the promise.[/quote']

What about this Proverb: "When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him"? This cannot be a promise, yet it is phrased in the same way as the one you stated is a promise in the above post. Sure, we can "give testament to the truth of" both of these proverbs, because they are, like other proverbs, wise sayings, statements about what is generally true, and we've seen that the way things work in God world is consistent with these general truths. It's not a matter of Proverbs being "true" or "false," but a matter of understanding the nature of proverbs. Yes, they are principles for living, but they are not "100% guarantees" for everyone. (What would you tell a faithful missionary whose enemies are not at peace with him? That his ways must not be pleasing the Lord? Do you see how your idea breaks down at this point?) Other Scriptures must clarify our understanding of Proverbs. In the case of this particular one, we read elsewhere that "all that live godly...shall suffer persecution" (and other Scriptures which shed light on this idea). In the case of Prov. 22:6, we find many other Scriptures which qualify and clarify the general truth that children who are trained right will not depart from that training. We see that all humans are depraved, that they have a free will, that they have certain responsibilities before God, that children are responsible to obey their parents, that the Holy Spirit is really the one teaching saved children to follow Him, etc., etc.

[1Timothy115]

Not sure I'm following this next quote...

Sure, we can "give testament to the truth of" both of these proverbs, because they are, like other proverbs, wise sayings, statements about what is generally true, and we've seen that the way things work in God world is consistent with these general truths.

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There is never an exception to truth given to men from God.

Both your statement and Prov. 22:6 are indeed generally true, but there are exceptions to both rules.

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How old is the pastor's daughter you mention below.

Why has my pastor friend's daughter turned her back on the excellent training she received? She has "departed from" it.

[Annie]

1Tim, this thread is a spinoff of another thread in which we were discussing whether Proverbs 22:6 is a promise, a "100% guarantee." In the course of the thread, I introduced the idea that, as students of the Word of God, we need to interpret passages with the understanding that the Bible is written in a number of different literary forms. For example, we understand that the Psalms (which are indeed as true as the rest of the Bible) contain much figurative language. God is not a literal fortress or shepherd. He doesn't really have wings, feathers, arms, etc. So, when we read in Psalms that God shelters us under His wings, we don't take that to mean exactly what it says, literally. (If we did, then we would be in error regarding God's character.) The fact that Psalms are written in poetic form helps us to understand that figurative language is in operation here.

Proverbs are of a different literary form. They are, as we know, wise sayings. The question under discussion is whether or not we can interpret all Proverbs as "promises," or "things that are always true for all people," or whether other Scriptures should be examined in order to shed more light on whether or not they could be called "promises." I brought up a few Proverbs that are demonstrably not "guarantees." Here they are:

"When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him."
"The poor is hated of his own neighbor, but the rich hath many friends."
"A soft answer turneth away wrath, but grievous words stir up anger."
"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

There are obvious exceptions to these general truths. Not all poor people are hated by their neighbors, and not all rich people have many friends. Not all faithful servants of God are at peace with their enemies; on the contrary, many endure persecution at their enemies' hands. A soft answer does not always turn away wrath. A child does not always continue on in the way he has been trained. These exceptions do not indicate that those Proverbs are not true...They just reinforce the idea that Proverbs (as a literary form) are not meant by God to be "promises," or "guarantees." They are, as the term "proverbs" indicates, wise sayings. I am not at all questioning the truth of Proverbs. I believe that book to be as inspired as any other in the Bible. I'm just asking how they should be interpreted.

How old is the pastor's daughter you mention below.

She is a married woman around thirty years old. Here is the info I posted on the other thread:

Right now I'm thinking of a couple I know well: a pastor and his wife who have raised nine children. I was able to watch them closely as they interacted with their kids over the years. They homeschooled. They had daily personal and family devotions. They disciplined wisely. Their kids were a joy to be with. All of them were under control, polite, etc., and joyfully ministered in the church. As a college-aged kid, I would press the mom especially to divulge her child-rearing wisdom. She always went straight to Scripture. I would be hard-pressed to find a more joyful, Spirit-filled family. But (you see this coming), the oldest child has broken her parents' hearts by moving in with an unsaved, divorced man with children. (Now she is married to him.) She has "departed" from the training she received and accepted for so many years. Every single one of her siblings are now adults serving the Lord faithfully. I'm thinking of another family (godly, faithful) in which the same thing is true. If I didn't know these families so well, I'd probably agree with those who would say, "Well, they didn't really train their children biblically." But they did.

[Wilchbla]

Proverbs are primarily maxims to keep the young man out of trouble.

[1Timothy115]

Some proverbs were written to specific questions posed to Solomon who was known to have God given wisdom to discern the truth of a matter. For instance the queen of Sheba:
1 Kings 10:1 And when the queen of Sheba heard of the fame of Solomon concerning the name of the LORD, she came to prove him with hard questions.

We don't know all the circumstances for each proverb. We know we can use them in daily life dealing with fellow Christians and with our children. Today it might be a wise saying to take care in using the proverbs while dealing with the world.

I also believe, reflecting on it now, that Christ demonstrated the source [GOD] of many of the proverbs. I believe Christ used this same method to confirm the proverbs of the Old Testament.

Proverbs 1:19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.
Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The latter could be an interesting study, that is, Christ's words and how they resemble or confirm God's wisdom to Solomon.

Of course these are just thoughts and the Lord has eternity to teach me the correct way.

[Annie]

I believe Christ used this same method to confirm the proverbs of the Old Testament.

Proverbs 1:19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.
Matthew 19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The latter could be an interesting study, that is, Christ's words and how they resemble or confirm God's wisdom to Solomon.

I think you've hit on something here, 1Tim...not just with Christ's words, but also with the rest of Scripture. We should always be informing ourselves further by studying out what the whole of Scripture has to say. Here's an example of how other Scripture clarifies the fact that not all Proverbs should be taken as "100% guarantees," or promises: One Proverb says, "When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him." But other Scriptures clarify: "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution," and, "In this world ye shall have tribulation." The Proverb therefore cannot be interpreted as a guarantee for all people who are pleasing the Lord. There is no other way to take it than as a general truth, a wise saying, an observation Solomon made about people he saw pleasing the Lord. The same can be said for other Proverbs, such as the ones I mentioned above.

[1Timothy115]

I think you've hit on something here, 1Tim...not just with Christ's words, but also with the rest of Scripture. We should always be informing ourselves further by studying out what the whole of Scripture has to say. Here's an example of how other Scripture clarifies the fact that not all Proverbs should be taken as "100% guarantees," or promises: One Proverb says, "When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him." But other Scriptures clarify: "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution," and, "In this world ye shall have tribulation." The Proverb therefore cannot be interpreted as a guarantee for all people who are pleasing the Lord. There is no other way to take it than as a general truth, a wise saying, an observation Solomon made about people he saw pleasing the Lord. The same can be said for other Proverbs, such as the ones I mentioned above.

There are some things said here I can't agree with. I have a difficulty with the continuing use of "take it than as a general truth." It would seem to marginalize God's word given to Solomon. God's word is all truth.

This example in particular: Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him. The scripture has more to it than just a plus-minus. It has to do with a relationship between the man of God and enemies followed by, what God will do as a result. Does the man?s way of dealing with the enemy please God? If the answer is yes, then God can and does make peace between them.

[Annie]

There are some things said here I can't agree with. I have a difficulty with the continuing use of "take it than as a general truth." It would seem to marginalize God's word given to Solomon. God's word is all truth.

I agree 100% that God's word is all truth. The question is not whether or not it is true, but how we should interpret that truth. IOW, is God intending to say that all people whose ways please Him will, for sure, 100% of the time, be at peace with their enemies? I don't see how you can say that, as that idea would definitely contradict both other very clear Scriptures (the ones I listed above) and observable human experience.

Let me put it this way. God chose to communicate His word to us through different styles and forms of literature, including poetry, prose, narrative/history, parables, and proverbs. Take poetry, for example. God (through David) tells us in Psalms that we can hide under His wings, and be covered by His feathers. He tells us that He is a strong tower, a shepherd, water, etc. Anyone taking these verses at face value, without knowing about or looking at any other verses in the Bible, will get a very strange idea of what God is like indeed! But why don't we interpret these verses to be "literally true?" Because God does not intend for us to interpret them that way. How do we know? Because #1) the genre He is using to communicate these truths is poetry, which by definition uses figurative language, and #2) we can use other Scriptures to clarify the picture of what God is really like in essence, which helps us to understand and appreciate the figurative language as God intends us to. We have to employ hermeneutics to understand this. (Most of us who have grown up familiar with the Bible do this without much thinking.)

Now, Proverbs are of a different literary form. They are not poetry like Psalms. They are not history/narrative, like Kings and Chronicles. They are not laws, like we find in Deuteronomy. They are proverbs. God wants us to think of them as proverbs. God tells us in Proverbs 1:1 that what follows are "The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel." The next question we should ask, then, is this: "What are proverbs?" We look up the term and see that proverbs are "wise sayings." So, what we have in the book of Proverbs is a collection of wise sayings of King Solomon (and apparently others, as noted throughout the book). So, we see that God wants us to interpret this book in light of what it is: a group of wise sayings...which brings us to our next question, which has to do with the nature of a wise saying. Is a "wise saying" always the same as "a promise from God," or a "statement which is true for all people 100% of the time?" Does God intend for us to interpret proverbs in this way, or does He intend for us to view them as wise sayings which express general truths?

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying that the Proverbs aren't inspired...I'm just saying that they are inspired as proverbs, just as the Psalms are inspired as poetry. If we take much of Psalms to be figuratively true (notice the qualifier), what is wrong with taking Proverbs to be generally true (another qualifier)? Psalms states truth in a figurative way; Proverbs states truth in a general way. That's why I don't have any trouble saying that in general, children do continue on in the way they were trained. Men whose ways please the Lord are generally not in trouble with their enemies. Rich people are generally more popular than poor people. A soft answer does indeed turn away wrath most of the time. BUT there are obvious, observable exceptions to every one of these general truths. These observations serve as a reinforcement of the understanding that God wants us to interpret proverbs in light of what they are: wise sayings, not 100% guarantees for every person or every situation.

This example in particular: Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways please the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him. The scripture has more to it than just a plus-minus. It has to do with a relationship between the man of God and enemies followed by, what God will do as a result. Does the man?s way of dealing with the enemy please God? If the answer is yes, then God can and does make peace between them.

He does? I don't see how you can say this, knowing that many Christian brethren overseas are being persecuted by their enemies this very minute. Are you saying that the way they are dealing with their enemies is not pleasing to the Lord? How can you say this, in light of the other Scriptures that guarantee persecution for all who are living godly in Christ Jesus?

[HappyChristian]

*sigh* = Proverbs 16:7 doesn't say that all enemies will always be at peace with a man who walks with God.

Remember Joseph? Classic example of what this verse is talking about. Joseph suffered - but God blessed him through his enemies. He was persecuted because he lived godly. But God made his enemies to be at peace with him.

Proverbs are wise sayings. And the Proverbs in the Bible are correct. Because God said them. I know you don't deny that, Annie. But you know what - I think it's sad to try and explain away what God has said. He said if one does one thing, a certain result will come. Choice and consequence. That principle is all through the Bible.

Yes, I do believe that people make their own choices. And when one becomes an adult, that one must make personal decisions. Sometimes unwise decisions are made. Why? Well, we can deny it all we want to, but decisions are made in a pattern formed when we are children...

I don't know the people you referenced Annie, but I do know my God. And His Word. And I will trust what He says. Whether one wants to believe Pr. 22:6 is a promise, a principle or just a nice pithy saying - it's God's Word and can be trusted.

[Annie]

Remember Joseph? Classic example of what this verse is talking about. Joseph suffered - but God blessed him through his enemies. He was persecuted because he lived godly. But God made his enemies to be at peace with him.

Are you saying that this will be the result for every person who lives godly? Yes, Joseph is a demonstration of the general truth communicated in Proverbs. But I don't see how you can say that there aren't exceptions to this rule. What about martyrs, whose enemies were not ever at peace with them? What about the apostles, who never came to peace with those who hated their teachings? What about modern-day missionaries who are persecuted? The proverb says, "When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him."

Proverbs are wise sayings. And the Proverbs in the Bible are correct. Because God said them. I know you don't deny that, Annie. But you know what - I think it's sad to try and explain away what God has said. He said if one does one thing, a certain result will come. Choice and consequence. That principle is all through the Bible.

I'm not trying to explain anything away...I'm merely advocating that we interpret Scripture as God intends for us to interpret it. To interpret it in any other way is to ignore what He is really trying to teach us. I totally agree that choices bring consequences. Galatians reinforces this truth: a man reaps what he sows. I'm not explaining that truth away at all. I'm just saying that you cannot use a proverb alone to assume things about people in the following ways:
--"That man's enemies are not at peace with him; therefore, his ways must not be pleasing the Lord."
--"That woman has someone mad at her; therefore, she must not be giving soft answers."
--"That man has a wayward son; therefore, he must not have reared him properly."
--"That man is rich; therefore, he must have many friends."

To reason in the above ways would be to ignore the nature of proverbs. If they were "100% guarantees," then we could rightly reason in those ways. But the reason we cannot think along the above ways is that proverbs aren't ironclad rules with no exceptions. The facts are that:
--A godly man might never be at peace with his enemies, as the Bible clearly states in the New Testament.
--People with depraved hearts can remain angry and hold grudges even against those who speak softly and treat them with love.
--Adult children can and do choose to rebel against or wander away from good training.
--Rich people do not always have many friends; poor people are not always despised.

Yes, I do believe that people make their own choices. And when one becomes an adult, that one must make personal decisions. Sometimes unwise decisions are made. Why? Well, we can deny it all we want to, but decisions are made in a pattern formed when we are children...

I would argue that those patterns are not entirely responsible. We all know people who, despite the fact that they were trained to cheat and lie, have overcome those behavior patterns through God's grace. Similarly, we all know people who, despite the fact that they received excellent training, chose to go a different way and reject those patterns. "Patterns" simply don't account for everything. No amount of good training can expunge sinful patterns from a person's heart. Sin crops up despite the best training. Anyone who would say otherwise is a behaviorist.

I don't know the people you referenced Annie, but I do know my God. And His Word. And I will trust what He says. Whether one wants to believe Pr. 22:6 is a promise, a principle or just a nice pithy saying - it's God's Word and can be trusted.

That's for sure! I've received a lot of encouragement from that verse, but I'm not depending on it exclusively. Much more encouraging to me is the thought of God's grace at work in my children's lives, and in my life as a mom as well. He's the best "trainer" there is, and I need to let Him work!

[HappyChristian]

Nowehere did I say that I or anyone should depend on Pr. 22:6 exclusively. I said that its principle is found throughout the Bible. Choice and consequence. Sowing and reaping.

I don't make any pretense to understand all that God has put in His Word. Nor am I going to argue about it. I believe that the promise is found in the principle. Especially since that principle is iterated throughout the Word.

Oh, and I never in any way indicated that good training expunged bad behaviour. Accepting the principle in that verse does not indicate that belief either. Nor does it negate relying on God's mercy and grace in our lives.

[Revelation3:20]

If they were "100% guarantees," then we could rightly reason in those ways. But the reason we cannot think along the above ways is that proverbs aren't ironclad rules with no exceptions. The facts are that:
--A godly man might never be at peace with his enemies, as the Bible clearly states in the New Testament.
--People with depraved hearts can remain angry and hold grudges even against those who speak softly and treat them with love.
--Adult children can and do choose to rebel against or wander away from good training.
--Rich people do not always have many friends; poor people are not always despised.

Rationalistic folly of heart I fear. You haven't all the facts and so you reach the wrong conclusions because you haven't sought them by faith. Your logic reminds me so much of the sadducees trying to prove to Christ with their logic that there is no literal resurrection. :sad

Psalm 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.

Think about that verse and see if you can find the answer to Proverbs 16:7.

[John81]

Since we are all riddled with sin no one could keep their end of "you do this, then that" statements in Proverbs.

[1Timothy115]

*sigh* = Proverbs 16:7 doesn't say that all enemies will always be at peace with a man who walks with God.

Remember Joseph? Classic example of what this verse is talking about. Joseph suffered - but God blessed him through his enemies. He was persecuted because he lived godly. But God made his enemies to be at peace with him.

Proverbs are wise sayings. And the Proverbs in the Bible are correct. Because God said them. I know you don't deny that, Annie. But you know what - I think it's sad to try and explain away what God has said. He said if one does one thing, a certain result will come. Choice and consequence. That principle is all through the Bible.

Yes, I do believe that people make their own choices. And when one becomes an adult, that one must make personal decisions. Sometimes unwise decisions are made. Why? Well, we can deny it all we want to, but decisions are made in a pattern formed when we are children...

I don't know the people you referenced Annie, but I do know my God. And His Word. And I will trust what He says. Whether one wants to believe Pr. 22:6 is a promise, a principle or just a nice pithy saying - it's God's Word and can be trusted.

Also, it doesn't say a man pleasing God will have no enemies nor will he have no persecution. I think this is just a case of stressing infinitives at different places. I think it turned into an argument and never was meant to be...I can't go there so, this is my last comment for this.

[Wilchbla]

The purpose of Proverbs.

1: The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2: To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3: To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
4: To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.
5: A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
6: To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Is that hard to understand? The "promises" of Proverbs are these verses right here. If you read and study the Proverbs of Solomon you'll receive wisdom, etc.

Now as far as Proverbs 16:7 we know that believers will be persecuted for serving the Lord in the NT so this verse must refer to having enemies without cause. If you please God any enemies you have will be because God ordained them for you to try your faith.