The two witnesses and cessationism

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

The book of Revelation is jampacked with the symbolic language of apocalyptic literature. The prophecy was given to encourage Christ's Church then and throughout history until His return. The "two witnesses" are among the many symbols used for that purpose. John explains their symbolism by using further symbolism. Below is an extract from what I wrote elsewhere that might shed light on how to interpret the "two witnesses":

Who Are the Two Witnesses?
‘“And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth’ (Rev. 11:3-4).

Meaning:
- two witnesses = double witness
Context:
- two witnesses = two lampstands = two olive trees
- lampstands = churches

Allusions:
- olive trees = kingly & priestly authority of Zerubbabel as governor & Joshua as high priest (see Zech. 4)
- Elijah and Moses at the transfiguration
- Jesus sent disciples out in 2’s
- 2 churches = Old & New Testament Church
- 2 churches = Smyrna & Philadelphia as ideal churches
- two or three witnesses required to establish truth
- foundation of the apostles and prophets

Interpretation:
- The ‘two witnesses with authority to prophesy’ depict 'those who worship in the temple' (Rev. 11:1), in other words, those who are truly God’s people of the Old and New Testament eras. The ‘temple’ is God’s dwelling, which was a physical place in the Old Testament and is the body of Christ in the New.

Purpose:
. . .  the Church in the 1st century would have received comfort from the vision if they saw the slaying and resurrection of the two witnesses as a figurative depiction of the Old and New Testament Churches that included them. The two witnesses represent God’s people who lay down their lives (not necessarily literally) in service to God, therefore, we too should take comfort and encouragement from this in our service to the Lord.
 

[SureWord]

I think the Church is gone when the Two Witnesses show up. They have some connection to the Tabernacle/Temple of Israel.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

5 hours ago, SureWord said:

I think the Church is gone when the Two Witnesses show up. They have some connection to the Tabernacle/Temple of Israel.

You think? What if this text that dispensationalists have palmed off to another era was designed to encourage you, as a member of Jesus Christ's Church, through its symbolism that pertains to God's people living in this world? Have you considered that dispensationalism makes most of Revelation irrelevant to the Church? I believe many are missing out because they are unaware that Revelation applies to them.

[BrotherTony]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:03 PM, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

You think? What if this text that dispensationalists have palmed off to another era was designed to encourage you, as a member of Jesus Christ's Church, through its symbolism that pertains to God's people living in this world? Have you considered that dispensationalism makes most of Revelation irrelevant to the Church? I believe many are missing out because they are unaware that Revelation applies to them.

Just how does it make Revelation irrelevant to the Church? Listen, brother, you've got your views, and you might find that most here have a dispensationalist position. Remember, you're on a BAPTIST board, not an interdenom or non-denom board. 

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

8 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

Just how does it make Revelation irrelevant to the Church? Listen, brother, you've got your views, and you might find that most here have a dispensationalist position. Remember, you're on a BAPTIST board, not an interdenom or non-denom board. 

I care nothing for man's boards, only the truth in God's word.

Please, tell me, according to Dispensationalism how many chapters of Revelation are directly applicable to Church?

[BrotherTony]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

I care nothing for man's boards, only the truth in God's word.

Please, tell me, according to Dispensationalism how many chapters of Revelation are directly applicable to Church?

Answering a question with a question to divert everyone attention from the fact you've got no answer is beneath you, sir. Try again. :: ROLLING EYES::

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

24 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

Answering a question with a question to divert everyone attention from the fact you've got no answer is beneath you, sir. Try again. :: ROLLING EYES::

Jesus often answered a question with a question? Do you also judge His motives as you do mine?

And, tell me, were the "ROLLING EYES" led by the Spirit? Maybe you want to read my post again on better behavior on the forum?

[Jerry]

The first three and the last three are directly applicable to the church. from chapter 4:1 to chapter 19, the church is not on earth, but it Israel and the nations of the world that are in view (see Matthew 24 on the times of the Gentiles and Jeremiah 30:7; Daniel 9:24-17; 12:1.

If the true church (ie. saved individuals) is on earth during the Tribulation period, there are several problems:

1. They are undergoing the wrath of God, which God promises to save them from - even in chapter 3:10.

2. The Antichrist and devil are overcoming them (Revelation 13:7) - but God promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18).

As Tony mentioned above, true Baptists believe in Dispensationalism - and all of the events from Revelation 4:1 to the end of the book occur after the end of the church age, when the church is caught up in the rapture to meet the Lord in the air. Trying to fit something in where many passages show that it does not equals explaining away many passages and doing away with the literal meaning of God's Word. Even skimming your endtimes comments in your posts above, I can see you already do that - and that it is essential to your viewpoint on the book of Revelation (therefore affecting MANY passages about Christ's second coming/endtimes).

[BrotherTony]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Jesus often answered a question with a question? Do you also judge His motives as you do mine?

And, tell me, were the "ROLLING EYES" led by the Spirit? Maybe you want to read my post again on better behavior on the forum?

First, you may want to read your post again yourself. Second, if you look in the mirror you'll see you're NOT Jesus. You, my friend, are Robert.  Third,my rolling my eyes is in response to your continued posting of positions you know will incite here on these forums and a willful ignoring of a legitimate question in response to your own post saying dispensationalism discounts much of the church in Revelations. 

[Pastor Matt]

Let's keep this on topic. Any reply's that have to do with misunderstanding or behavior should be posted in the following thread.

 

[Invicta]

On 4/22/2023 at 3:20 PM, SureWord said:

I think the Church is gone when the Two Witnesses show up. They have some connection to the Tabernacle/Temple of Israel.

The Irvingites who were the first to preach dispensationism said the church would be raptured and would be left without a preacher or witness.

[Invicta]

On 4/22/2023 at 9:03 PM, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

You think? What if this text that dispensationalists have palmed off to another era was designed to encourage you, as a member of Jesus Christ's Church, through its symbolism that pertains to God's people living in this world? Have you considered that dispensationalism makes most of Revelation irrelevant to the Church? I believe many are missing out because they are unaware that Revelation applies to them.

It was written to the  church,for the church so that they would know of the tribulations the saints would suffer,  mainly under pagan Rome and then Papal Rome. I have a friend who says that he doesn't believe the church will go through tribulation.  I say "What world are you living in? Have you never heard of the inquisition, the wars of religion in France, with pastors having their bodies broken on the wheel, then hung and men found in assemblies being sentenced to life in the valleys and women sentenced to incarceration in places like the Tower of Constance in the aptly named town of Aigres Mortes (Bitter Deaths). Or the massacres at Wassy and St Bartholomew.  Or John Brown, a Lollard or the town I am now living in, who was imprisoned in  Canterbury,  than had his feet burned through to the bone, then forced to walk to the place where he was burned to death."

Preterism and futurism were both started by Jesuits to counter the Christian teaching the the Pope is antichrist, which was taught by the Waldensians from about 1200 AD when the papacy reached it's full persecuting powers.  These two bedfellows also tea h that Revelation is nothing to do with the church. It was written to the church to tell them what was soon to happen, Rev 1:1 see also 

AMOS 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

On 4/29/2023 at 11:23 AM, Invicta said:

It was written to the  church,for the church so that they would know of the tribulations the saints would suffer,  mainly under pagan Rome and then Papal Rome. I have a friend who says that he doesn't believe the church will go through tribulation.  I say "What world are you living in? Have you never heard of the inquisition, the wars of religion in France, with pastors having their bodies broken on the wheel, then hung and men found in assemblies being sentenced to life in the valleys and women sentenced to incarceration in places like the Tower of Constance in the aptly named town of Aigres Mortes (Bitter Deaths). Or the massacres at Wassy and St Bartholomew.  Or John Brown, a Lollard or the town I am now living in, who was imprisoned in  Canterbury,  than had his feet burned through to the bone, then forced to walk to the place where he was burned to death."

Preterism and futurism were both started by Jesuits to counter the Christian teaching the the Pope is antichrist, which was taught by the Waldensians from about 1200 AD when the papacy reached it's full persecuting powers.  These two bedfellows also tea h that Revelation is nothing to do with the church. It was written to the church to tell them what was soon to happen, Rev 1:1 see also 

AMOS 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I agree with the application. I would say though that Preterism is at least literarily plausible, unlike Futurism. Pretrism functions if it's not too strict, by recognizing the prophecy was designed to extend beyond the 1st audience John wrote to.

I have written of a "multi-generational view." For, "there is no doubt John was addressing the 1st century Church of his day (Preterist view), yet the symbols were intentionally written so that they would relate to every succeeding generation too (Idealist view)."

[Joe Chandler]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:22 AM, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

I agree with the application. I would say though that Preterism is at least literarily plausible, unlike Futurism. Pretrism functions if it's not too strict, by recognizing the prophecy was designed to extend beyond the 1st audience John wrote to.

I have written of a "multi-generational view." For, "there is no doubt John was addressing the 1st century Church of his day (Preterist view), yet the symbols were intentionally written so that they would relate to every succeeding generation too (Idealist view)."

That explains all the metaphor and allegory in your posts. So are you preterist or historist?

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

I'm partially preterist and idealist.