Cloven tongues like as of fire

[wretched]

1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

 

I don't think anyone has said or indicated that baptism was unnecessary or meaningless.

Perhaps you are right Jim, it is a hard to read thread.

[Hugh_Flower]

18 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

This verse has nothing to do with baptism at all. I am afraid that you are so confused by what you believe or have been taught that neither you, or anyone replying to you, can reply without confusion.

Israel does not become The Kingdom of God, as you indicated above. You waffle hopefully between water baptism and what you call national baptism, of which there is no such thing.

This thread has become hopelessly mired down in confusion.How about we try this: Does a person have to be baptized to be saved? A simple yes or no will suffice, no more confusion.

I was talking about the Kingdom of Heaven not the Kingdom of God.

no. Of course not. 

[Jerry]

Many people, including me, believe the two terms are interchangeable in the New Testament. Can you please clarify the difference you are trying, especially in regards to baptism. You basically (maybe unintentionally) said nothing above.

[Jim_Alaska]

Hugh, you are seriously confused and also confuse others with what you try to say.

Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven, it doesn't matter which; Israel does not "become" either.

[Hugh_Flower]

You guys are acting like you’ve never heard this said before. I don’t have time to go through it with you guys, your minds are made up when it comes to this.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

6 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

I don’t have time to go through it with you guys, your minds are made up when it comes to this.

The following post is not intended to engage the prior discussion as a whole, but only to engage the idea that minds are already "made up."  When I read that statement above, I thought - That is actually how it works most of the time with doctrinal positions.  For most Biblical doctrine my mind is very firmly "made up" with heart conviction concerning the position that I hold, and it would require someone to provide a very thorough presentation concerning how my position is Biblically inaccurate or concerning how their position is more accurate in order for me to change. As an example for this (employed ONLY as an example, NOT at all as an accusation against anyone) - While Brother Hugh above accused Brother Jerry and Brother Jim of having their minds already "made up" on this matter (about which he is likely quite correct), it is also quite likely that Brother Hugh's own mind is also already "made up" concerning the position that he holds.  As such, it is likely that BOTH sides already have their minds "made up."  Thus in order for change on either side to be possible, it would require a thorough Biblical response from the opposing side; and it would require an honest consideration and examination of that response by the receiving side. Then it would further require the first side to honestly consider and examine any counter response that the receiving side might present.

[Jerry]

12 hours ago, Hugh_Flower said:

You guys are acting like you’ve never heard this said before. I don’t have time to go through it with you guys, your minds are made up when it comes to this.

Yes, of course, my mind is made up on most of my Bible theology already. I am on a board (and on this topic specifically) to debate others on what I believe and already am sure of. It would be very dangerous to get involved in any Biblical debate if you don't know where to stand. Unless someone is searching for truth, asking questions to determine what the Bible says about various aspects of the issue/doctrine, trying to sort it out. However, someone coming on these boards (or anywhere else) presenting a position is not searching for answers, but teaching their own position - rightly or wrongly, therefore giving others the right to respond, especially if they feel the person is off theologically or needs some clarification.

That being said, I truly have no clue about what you are speaking about above. I know what the Bible teaches about baptism - however, I do not know what you are referring to or trying to teach/present here. So on that aspect, my mind is not made up as I am unsure what you are talking about. However, on the issue of salvation/the Gospel and where baptism fits in as a public testimony of our salvation, an identification with Christ's death, burial and resurrection - yes, my mind is made up.

As a related statement - not specifically referring to this thread** - if someone who has been saved for a long while suddenly jumps ship on any major position in the Bible (doctrinal or even basic understanding of what the Bible says in certain places), then there is something wrong. Yes, we finetune our understanding and grow in our knowledge of the Bible, day by day and year by year - but if someone was saved for 20 years and reading/studying their Bible that whole time (for example), then suddenly switched doctrinal stance on a major issue, then something was wrong. Yes, someone can change their understanding on the endtimes for example, (ie. where the rapture fits), if their background clouded or influenced their understanding of that issue. But changing it would also involve a lot of study, and I believe would take the wisdom and conviction of the Holy Spirit as well. However; I find usually when people jump ship - they are going from a sure position to a more liberal one due perhaps to the spiritual influences they have allowed in their lives.

**Stated because recently a relatively new friend who definitely listens to hyper-dispensationalists challenged me to change my position on salvation in other dispensations (which I do not believe is different - how they were to live and the progressive revelation they were given differed - but trusting in the coming Messiah, the substitute who would die for their sins - has been there from the beginning). It would involve me totally turning my back on 29 years of Bible study and receiving a position that I have never seen in the Word of God through all those years. Not going to happen. I might grow in my understanding of certain aspects of each dispensation, for example, but if I did not have a relatively firm grasp on all the Bible by this point in time, then I am in trouble theologically.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Jerry

[Pastor Scott Markle]

40 minutes ago, Jerry said:

**Stated because recently a relatively new friend who definitely listens to hyper-dispensationalists challenged me to change my position on salvation in other dispensations (which I do not believe is different - how they were to live and the progressive revelation they were given differed - but trusting in the coming Messiah, the substitute who would die for their sins - has been there from the beginning). It would involve me totally turning my back on 29 years of Bible study and receiving a position that I have never seen in the Word of God through all those years. Not going to happen. I might grow in my understanding of certain aspects of each dispensation, for example, but if I did not have a relatively firm grasp on all the Bible by this point in time, then I am in trouble theologically.

Agreed.

[TheGloryLand]

Just checking to see if churches that speak in tongues are still around. I’m not looking for one just checking, they disappeared with COVID-19

[BrotherTony]

16 minutes ago, TheGloryLand said:

Just checking to see if churches that speak in tongues are still around. I’m not looking for one just checking, they disappeared with COVID-19

There are several in our area. The tongues movement hasn't died.

[TheGloryLand]

1 minute ago, BrotherTony said:

There are several in our area. The tongues movement hasn't died.

I was just checking, fashions come and go, like the healings, where people line up for healings. Benny Hinn

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, TheGloryLand said:

I was just checking, fashions come and go, like the healings, where people line up for healings. Benny Hinn

Fashions? Tongues isn't just a "fashion." It's a movement that has been around a good long while now. And the false healing services and their leaders are being proven more and more to be fake. Don't get me wrong, the Lord still heals, but not using ilk like Hinn, Jakes, Prince, etc. 

[MikeWatson1]

The youth here took hold of Charismatic and Pentecostal so called churches. Not sure if covid did that much to them.

The Vineyard movement has several what they call campuses here. My cousin is a pastor of one of them. My other cousin is the admin guy for another of them. Their Sunday morning service you don't see much tongue speaking etc..but go to their youth group and there is where it's pretty rife.

We also have C3 so called churches that are big here. And New Life ones. The New Life ones seem the most focussed on primarily tongues for the gifts.

They may have got knocked back a bit with COVID..but are resurging and I think will keep getting more popular with youth to set the stage for the false Messiah.

Edited December 18, 2023 by MikeWatson1
Wording out