Your thought on forgiving

[JerryNumbers]

I was reading some replies on a blog about the murder of Christa Alexander.

Several people are calling her father a hypocrite. They claim that if you forgive someone you would not want justice served. To want justice to be served on him and at the same time say you forgive him is not possible. That is he truly forgave him he would not want Couty to suffer the least bit of punishment.

I know everyone will have much to say about this.

[John81]

Scripture teaches us to balance justice and mercy. Scripture also teaches there are consequences for our sins and certain sins require a measure of justice to be done by us (collectively) her on earth. Murder is a sin that Scripture dicatates demands prosecution and punishment.

When a good parent will forgive their child for doing wrong, but if the wrong is great enough that same parent will yet spank the child. The child is forgivin, but the wrong is punished.

There is no hypocrisy in seeking righteous judgement/punishment while at the same time forgiving the trespasser.

[Jerry]

I like reading a Christian author named Al Lacy. He deals with this in some of his books. For example, a bank or stage coach robberer who killed someone (can't remember the specifics - whether he was the actual one that killed the person or was guilty because of being part of the robbery) and then got caught. In jail, an evangelist witnesses to him and he repents and gets saved. However, he still has to face hanging at dawn - though when he is led to the gallows, he goes with the Biblical assurance that God has forgiven him and that he is going to Heaven.

God forgives believers for their sins - but we still die (the wages of sin is death). The consequences and results of sin are still there.

[tired]

We are forgiven when we repent. The consequences are still there. We can forgive a murderer or rapist but the government is given the task of enforcing the laws.

[John81]

Good analogy Jerry. Similar to the thief on the cross. Jesus didn't free the man who accepted Him from paying for his crimes on the cross, but He did free him from his sins and ensure him of life in paradise rather than hell.

[Kayla]

Luke 23:34a Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. :Bible:

[Guest Guest]

[quote="tired"]We are forgiven when we repent. The consequences are still there. We can forgive a murderer or rapist but the government is given the task of enforcing the laws.[/quote]

:goodpost: :amen: ...tired! Jesus' words in...[color=#FF0000]Matthew 5:44-45...But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. KJV.[/color]

candlelight

P.S. ~ The govenment can take care of the rest. It is out of our hands, then. And, Jesus will have the FINAL word in the end!

[JerryNumbers]

[quote="Kayla"]Luke 23:34a Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. :Bible:[/quote]

Them are you saying forgive them and there should be no consequence for their crime?

[qwerty guy]

I'm going to droll on, as a warning to skimmers.......

I've been called weird by both christians and non-christians, due to some of my actions. I had 4 visitors come to my church about 6 months ago, because in a diner I met this group and saw they where laughing at the book of mormon. I sat down (causing them fear because they thought I was mormon) and showed them some of the really bad stuff about the book. When one of them instead of laughing at the book of mormon made a comment about God in general, I threatened to punch his lights out. I said it plainly, as a matter of fact, and for 4 hours then proceeded to answer questions about the bible and preach Jesus. If you look it up on this site, I asked about it, and for the most part everyone here said I was wrong. I now have 2 new faithful church members, 3 baptisms, and about 4 more come and go visitors as fruit for standing up for God.

I've had 4 church members attack me in the 4 years I've been where I am. Every single one I've disabled without harming them. These are known hot heads who sense a run in with me I have yet to hear of any of them pulling the same stunts. I shut them down, and did not pick on, laugh at, nor demean any of them. I simply would not let them get away with running their mouth about God, and when they swung on me I schooled them without rubbing it in, and 3 out of the 4 I within 60 seconds was telling them about how anyone can lose it and it's a done matter for me. None of these people are afraid to talk to me nor embarresed, but brag to me about the Lord instead of cursing him.

Today I joked around with a man who is a proud body builder. Twice my size. I jabbed him in the ribs and he slapped me in the shoulders. We talked about our jobs. We laughed about how we mess up in christian life and how stupid we are. This guy who has such a relationship with me, about 7 months ago tried to swing on a teen that is in the ministry I work with. During hand shaking time, this body builder tried to punch out someone under my charge. Before he could swing, I had moved 20ft and slapped his fist down. He tried to swing a chair and I kicked it down. I spun him, locked him up in a nelson, and hauled his hiney out of the service.

I get a pit in my stomach when it comes to violence, but it's a tool just like singing, praise, diplomacy, bribes, etc. I do what needs done, and I don't let the world tell me what that is, nor do I let sudo-christian seat fillers either.

But, I will point out, all of this I've said, is situations in real time.... what to do about harm already caused?

Revenge..... The Lord lays claim... This I struggle with. Not because I have a lust for revenge.... But because I've laid it to the Lord and cried tears over the result. I know He knows better then I... I know He is more Just then I... but I'm gun shy honestly about getting God involved, because it's terrifying.

I have one right now. Over and over, this person does dirrect interfearance with my labor for God. I keep ignoring it. I'm afraid to get God involved, because honestly I'm afraid of what may befall this person.

There is only one curse I've read in the bible that I feel ok with praying, and that is the one quoted by King David that his enemies fall into the traps they have laid out for him. I found that superb, if they mean him no harm, no harm to them, if they wish him to get a hangnail, a hangnail to them... if they wish him dead, dead to them. It's kinda perfect justice, because if they wish him blessings, then he's wishing THEM blessings. Problem is the first time I followed this wise example it moved so quick and so big that it scared the pants off me.

I guess weeping over your enimeys is suppost to be rightous and all, but you're weeping for a reason. Revenge never should be sought. But that doesn't mean action at the moment should be dismissed. Maybe that's what I'm getting at huh? Punch someone at the time they say God is dead, but shake your head and cry for them the next day? I don't know, all I can give is a tid bit of my history. It's outcome so far hasn't called up any questions.

[HappyChristian]

A similar analogy would be the true life one of the woman in TX who killed her hubby with an axe. While she was in prison, she got saved. She had been given the death penalty, and she and some Christians went to bat to try and get that judgment reversed, saying she was now forgiven. Well...

In the eyes of God, she was forgiven all of her sins when she accepted Christ. But as has been said, consequences come when we sin, even when we are forgiven. And she had to pay the consequences. Life for life, the Bible says. It is the government's responsibility to see to that kind of thing, and that is what they did. It wasn't a vengeance thing, and neither would it be for Christa Alexander's dad to require retribution. Forgiveness of a heinous crime by those affected by it does not negate the fact that punishment is warranted.

When a person takes a life, whether or not they are saved, they forfeit their own.

[JerryNumbers]

I agree, I remember the Texas woman, her getting saved did not cancel out the consequence, for she murdered the image of God.

Firmly believe that the Bible teaches for murder the penalty will be harsh, ones life.

I believe that its not used enough, and most people think I can get by with it.

But the truth be, we cannot expect those who are not saved to understand this forgiveness and still having to face the consequences of ones actions.

[John81]

qwerty:

Do you punch every person who says something against God? What if they are using God's name in cursing? What if they deny Jesus is God's Son?

Maybe I'm not understanding all this right.

I can see defending someone else from attack. I can see defending yourself from attack.

I'm having a very hard time seeing the biblical justification for aggressive violence because someone spoke ill of God.

Scripture says that vengence is God's. Scripture says God will deal with all those who deny Him. I don't see in Scripture where we are to attack those who deny God.

There have been times in my life that if I punched everyone that denied or mocked God I would have been fighting through most of the day. Even today, if I punched everyone who thinks it's okay to use God's name as a curse word because they don't believe His name has any meaning, I would be punching people everyday.

Maybe I'm just missing something...

[qwerty guy]

[quote="John81"]Maybe I'm just missing something...[/quote]

yea. Pretty much the whole post.

SWING AND A MISS!!!!!!!!!

[John81]

yea. Pretty much the whole post.

SWING AND A MISS!!!!!!!!!

Well then could you clarify or explain? I don't see the Scriptural support for punching someone for the reasons you mentioned.