Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

[Roselove]

5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

In order to answer your above question, two preliminary questions must be considered -

1.  What is the Biblical definition for the gift of discerning spirits?
2.  Is the gift of discerning spirits a sign gift or a "ministry" gift?

We find the gift of discerning spirits in the listing of 1 Corinthians 12:8-11 -- "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; to another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."  Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 12:28 adds the listing, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

From these two passages we acquire a list, as follows:

1.  The gift of apostleship
2.  The gift of prophecy
3.  The gift of teaching
4.  The word of wisdom
5.  The word of knowledge
6.  The gift of miracles
7.  The gift of healing
8.  the discerning of spirits
9.  The gift of helps
10.  The gift of governments
11.  The gift of tongues-speaking
12.  The gift of tongues-interpretation

Now, 1 Corinthians 13:8 indicates that at some time at least three spiritual gifts will cease to be necessary and/or valid.  These are the gifts of prophecies, of tongues-speaking, and of special-knowledge.  As I have presented in earlier postings, I believe that that these gifts are representative for two categories of spiritual gift, the category of the sign gifts and the category of the revelatory gifts.  I consider the gift tongues-speaking as representing the category of the sign gifts, and I consider gifts of prophecies and of special-knowledge as representing the category of the revelatory gifts.  In accord with Mark 16:17-18 I consider the following gifts as being within the category of the sign gifts - the gifts of devil-casting, of tongues-speaking, of miracle-working, and of healings.  I myself believe that these sign gifts have now ceased.  (Note: Although I believe that these sign gifts have now ceased as spiritual gifts, I still believe that devil-casting, miraculous events, and miraculous healing can still occur today through the power of prayer.)

Now, if we remove the sign gifts from the above listing, we would then have the following:

1.  The gift of apostleship
2.  The gift of prophecy
3.  The gift of teaching
4.  The word of wisdom
5.  The word of knowledge
8.  the discerning of spirits
9.  The gift of helps
10.  The gift of governments

Furthermore, I myself believe that the revelatory gifts would include the gifts of apostleship, of prophecy, of special knowledge (which may include the word of wisdom and the word of knowledge), and that these revelatory gifts have also ceased.  If I am correct, then our edited listing would have the following:

3.  The gift of teaching
8.  the discerning of spirits
9.  The gift of helps
10.  The gift of governments

This would appear to allow that the discerning of spirits is a spiritual gift that still exists unto this day.  However, we must still discern the Biblical definition for this spiritual gift.  Even so, I would suggest that for such an understanding we should consider 1 John 4:1-6 -- "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us.  Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error."  In accord with this passage, I would contend that the discerning of spirits is the ability to discern between the Spirit of God and the spirit of the world, to discern between the Spirit of Christ and the spirit of antichrist, to discern between the spirit of Biblical truth in message and doctrine and and spirit of worldly, fleshly, devilish error in message and doctrine.

Whether your friend actually possesses this spiritual gift, I cannot say.  I do not know her, nor do I know how she is defining that gift which she claims to possess.

Concerning myself, I would probably contend that I have a gift-mix of various spiritual gifts, but that my primary spiritual gift is the gift of teaching.  Maybe others would even substantiate that claim . . .

Well, she said to me, that she can discern whether someone has the Holy Spirit in them after a moment of interacting with them. She says she can also discern whether a Christian is “back slidden”, like their light is blocked by worldly garbage. 

She has also said that she can sense if there’s evil spirits in certain areas, like she knows there’s something wrong. 

To me, I don’t think these things are unbiblical. I mean, children of God should probably be more sensitive to these thing, since His Spirit is within us. 

I would think that this would help us “soul-win” and stay away from things that would be harmful to our spiritual walk? 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

14 hours ago, Roselove said:

Well, she said to me, that she can discern whether someone has the Holy Spirit in them after a moment of interacting with them. She says she can also discern whether a Christian is “back slidden”, like their light is blocked by worldly garbage. 

She has also said that she can sense if there’s evil spirits in certain areas, like she knows there’s something wrong. 

To me, I don’t think these things are unbiblical. I mean, children of God should probably be more sensitive to these thing, since His Spirit is within us. 

I would think that this would help us “soul-win” and stay away from things that would be harmful to our spiritual walk? 

Well, to some extent I also can discern if someone is filled with the Spirit and with the spirit of truth, or not.  However, I cannot do so according to some "automatic, supernatural" ability.  Rather, I can discern if someone is filled with the spirit based upon whether their behavior is in accord with the fruit of the spirit or in accord with the works of the flesh. (See Galatians 5:13-26)  Furthermore, I can discern if someone is filled with the spirit of truth or the spirit of error based upon whether their message/doctrine is in accord with the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ and in accord with the doctrine which is according to godliness, or is in accord with worldly philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men and the rudiments of the world. (See 1 Timothy 5: 3-5 & Colossians 2:8)

[Invicta]

Back in 1833, Robert Baxter, who was one of the leading "prophets" in Edward Irving's charismatic movement (Tongues, prophecy, healings)  wrote a Narative of Facts concerning his involvement in the movement,

Baxter had left the movement, accusing himslf of delusion.

He mentions that he prophesied "In the Power" and "the Power came upon me".    On one page,  he wrote that the pastor idicated  a man to him, he said "I saw a mighty power resting on him".

My question is "What did he see?"

In the 1980's I heard a man speak, saying the he saw a mighty demon sitting on someone.

Again my question is "What did he see?"

At the time, I hadn't read the above book, and I didn't think at the time to ask him.

So what did they see?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

15 hours ago, Invicta said:

Back in 1833, Robert Baxter, who was one of the leading "prophets" in Edward Irving's charismatic movement (Tongues, prophecy, healings)  wrote a Narative of Facts concerning his involvement in the movement,

Baxter had left the movement, accusing himslf of delusion.

He mentions that he prophesied "In the Power" and "the Power came upon me".    On one page,  he wrote that the pastor idicated  a man to him, he said "I saw a mighty power resting on him".

My question is "What did he see?"

In the 1980's I heard a man speak, saying the he saw a mighty demon sitting on someone.

Again my question is "What did he see?"

At the time, I hadn't read the above book, and I didn't think at the time to ask him.

So what did they see?

Maybe they were seeing what they claimed to see - a mighty demon.

However, any answer that I give is somewhat conjecture, since I myself do not possess all of the evidence, and am bound in such cases by the word of man.

[Roselove]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:30 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Well, to some extent I also can discern if someone is filled with the Spirit and with the spirit of truth, or not.  However, I cannot do so according to some "automatic, supernatural" ability.  Rather, I can discern if someone is filled with the spirit based upon whether their behavior is in accord with the fruit of the spirit or in accord with the works of the flesh. (See Galatians 5:13-26)  Furthermore, I can discern if someone is filled with the spirit of truth or the spirit of error based upon whether their message/doctrine is in accord with the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ and in accord with the doctrine which is according to godliness, or is in accord with worldly philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men and the rudiments of the world. (See 1 Timothy 5: 3-5 & Colossians 2:8)

I see what you’re saying, but I suppose I was thinking that if it’s a specific gift that God gave to a person, it would be a more supernatural experience, because I would assume that any Christian could tell whether someone was doing something wrong or teaching a false gospel. I feel like it must be something, more.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

22 minutes ago, Roselove said:

I see what you’re saying, but I suppose I was thinking that if it’s a specific gift that God gave to a person, it would be a more supernatural experience, because I would assume that any Christian could tell whether someone was doing something wrong or teaching a false gospel. I feel like it must be something, more.

Actually, for most of the spiritual gifts, there is an element wherein all believers might engage the ability somewhat.  However, those who possess that area of spiritual gift, when filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit for its usage, will have a special strength of ability in that area.

[Roselove]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, for most of the spiritual gifts, there is an element wherein all believers might engage the ability somewhat.  However, those who possess that area of spiritual gift, when filled and empowered by the Holy Spirit for its usage, will have a special strength of ability in that area.

I agree with that! I feel like I’ve possibly experienced a little of all of them. 

Yeah, I guess I think my friend probably possesses a particularly strong ability in that area. The way she describes the experience, plus the way her walk with God is, I would believe that she is definitely in-tune with this discernment. At times, I think I can relate to what she’s describing, but on a lower level, I guess.  

[Pastor Scott Markle]

11 minutes ago, Roselove said:

I agree with that! I feel like I’ve possibly experienced a little of all of them. 

Yeah, I guess I think my friend probably possesses a particularly strong ability in that area. The way she describes the experience, plus the way her walk with God is, I would believe that she is definitely in-tune with this discernment. At times, I think I can relate to what she’s describing, but on a lower level, I guess.  

Well, I would also contend that the same spiritual gift may be given to different individuals at different levels of strength, and that multiple spiritual gifts may be given to the same individual with a mixture of different levels of strength for each gift (which I reference as an individual's "gift-mix").