MacArthur

[Pastor Scott Markle]

21 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

First of all, there's no "technically" about it Calvinists believe explicitly, not "technically", that salvation is by faith. 

Second, regeneration is an act of God, not an act of man. 

Brother "D-28 Player,"

Certainly, regeneration is an act of God, not an act of man. Furthermore, justification is an act of God, not an act of man. Finally, salvation is an act of God, not an act of man.

Yet you are willing to claim (yea, even to claim emphatically) that within the Calvinistic system both justification and salvation (which are acts of God, not acts of man) are still THROUGH an individual's faith.  My question then remains -- Will you also acknowledge that within the Calvinistic system REGENERATION (which is just as much an act of God, not of man, as are justification and salvation) is NOT through an individual's faith?

[heartstrings]

29 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

First of all, there's no "technically" about it Calvinists believe explicitly, not "technically", that salvation is by faith. 

Second, regeneration is an act of God, not an act of man. 

 

Yes, absolutely right: regeneration is an act of God, not of man. The word regenerate comes from the same root word as we get "generator" and "gender". Like as in "generating" electricity or "gendering" a new animal or person. When a person gets saved God makes them a "new creature", "old things are passed away,. behold all things are become new". That's what "regenerate" means. But It does not mean that God "pre-enables" one to receive the Gospel. Wrong definition. God is definitely ready to "regenerate" a person but only when they exercise faith and repentance in Jesus Christ of their own volition. That is not a deficiency in God's "sovereignty" either, it is how God designed, declared and decreed that it is to be so. 

Titus 3

⁴ But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

⁵ Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

⁶ Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

⁷ That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Edited April 4, 2017 by heartstrings

[wretched]

5 minutes ago, Orval said:

Hello my friend,

First of all, I did not say the Calvinist believes this I said the Calvinist is placing his faith in a system.  Your words “you have been misled” is typical of a Calvinist response, most involved in Calvinism simply cannot respond to any challenge without attacking the integrity of the intellect of the one they are responding to.  “You don’t understand”, “you don’t grasp what you are talking about” “you have been misled” “you are ignorant of what Calvinism teaches” etc. 

So, let us examine, what Calvinist’s place their faith in, shall we?  Do you believe you are elect in eternity past?    I believe you will say yes to that question if not you are correct I have been misled by every Calvinist I have ever spoken with.

My second question is this, when did Jesus die for your sins and mine?  Once again, I believe you will say at Calvary.

Which question is more important to salvation?  That you are elect or that Jesus died for your sins?  You can be saved without election but you cannot be saved without Christ. 

When you place election as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with being elected by God.  If you remove election, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without election (the reformed system) why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven. 

On the other hand, I do not believe in election my faith is placed in the finished work of Christ, I do not need election, to verify I am saved. All I need to do is look to the finished work on the cross of Calvary.  If you need election then what is your faith in?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

Very well put!

[D-28 Player]

3 minutes ago, Orval said:

Hello my friend,

First of all, I did not say the Calvinist believes this I said the Calvinist is placing his faith in a system.  Your words “you have been misled” is typical of a Calvinist response, most involved in Calvinism simply cannot respond to any challenge without attacking the integrity of the intellect of the one they are responding to.  “You don’t understand”, “you don’t grasp what you are talking about” “you have been misled” “you are ignorant of what Calvinism teaches” etc. 

So, let us examine, what Calvinist’s place their faith in, shall we?  Do you believe you are elect in eternity past?    I believe you will say yes to that question if not you are correct I have been misled by every Calvinist I have ever spoken with.

My second question is this, when did Jesus die for your sins and mine?  Once again, I believe you will say at Calvary.

Which question is more important to salvation?  That you are elect or that Jesus died for your sins?  You can be saved without election but you cannot be saved without Christ. 

When you place election as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with being elected by God.  If you remove election, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without election (the reformed system) why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven. 

On the other hand, I do not believe in election my faith is placed in the finished work of Christ, I do not need election, to verify I am saved. All I need to do is look to the finished work on the cross of Calvary.  If you need election then what is your faith in?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

The fact remains that if you walked into a room full of Calvinists and claimed that Calvinists believe these things you would be laughed out of the room 

[Orval]

5 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

The fact remains that if you walked into a room full of Calvinists and claimed that Calvinists believe these things you would be laughed out of the room 

My friend,

Please answer my question.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Orval

[D-28 Player]

25 minutes ago, Orval said:

My friend,

Please answer my question.

I'm open to answering questions but I don't believe it's reasonable or honest to expect me to defend beliefs you ascribe to Calvinists as opposed to beliefs Calvinists actually hold and which Calvinism actually teaches,  

If you want to talk about what Calvinism actually teaches fine. But if you're just going to throw out a bunch of straw men and talking points then I'm just going to ignore that. 

 

Edited April 4, 2017 by D-28 Player

[No Nicolaitans]

D-28, based on our past interaction, would I (or would I not) be correct in my understanding; in that, you believe that while God doesn't control all of mankind's actions, God does control who is saved and lost? 

[Alimantado]

14 minutes ago, Orval said:

When you place election as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with being elected by God.  If you remove election, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without election (the reformed system) why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven.

Orval, I've interpreted your argument here as being that if a person believes there is something necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, then it follows that the person can only be placing their faith in that thing or things but not in the finished work of Christ itself. Is that your argument? If so then it makes me wonder about my own faith in Jesus Christ, since I also believe there are things necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, for example God's love for the world and his desire for all to be saved. On the same basis, could someone say that I'm not putting my faith in the finished work of Christ?

"When you place God's desire for all to be saved as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with God's desire for all to be saved.  If you remove God's desire for all to be saved, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without God's desire for all to be saved why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven."

 

[D-28 Player]

2 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

D-28, based on our past interaction, would I (or would I not) be correct in my understanding; in that, you believe that while God doesn't control all of mankind's actions, God does control who is saved and lost? 

Who saves, if not God?

[Orval]

1 minute ago, Alimantado said:

Orval, I've interpreted your argument here as being that if a person believes there is something necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, then it follows that the person can only be placing their faith in that thing or things but not in the finished work of Christ itself. Is that your argument? If so then it makes me wonder about my own faith in Jesus Christ, since I also believe there are things necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, for example God's love for the world and his desire for all to be saved. On the same basis, could someone say that I'm not putting my faith in the finished work of Christ?

"When you place God's desire for all to be saved as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with God's desire for all to be saved.  If you remove God's desire for all to be saved, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without God's desire for all to be saved why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven."

 

Hello my friend,

I really did not see a need to interpret what I said or asked as they are very straight forward questions.  Once again I have discussed many things with Calvinists over the last few years, and you are following the mold that has been cast before you which is do not answer instead ask questions and redirect. 

Answer the questions I asked please.  They are simple and straight forward.  Can you be saved without election?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

24 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

The fact remains that if you walked into a room full of Calvinists and claimed that Calvinists believe these things you would be laughed out of the room 

14 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

Why?  it's a dishonest question and it is not my responsibility to defend Calvinism against your straw man arguments. 

Let me save you all some time right now. If you want to talk about what Calvinism actually teaches fine. But if you're just going to throw out a bunch of false accusations and straw men then I'm just going to ignore that. 

Yet I have NOT entered this forum discussion with any claims about what Calvinist's believe, but have simply asked a straightforward question "about what Calvinism actually teaches."  Yet you have avoided giving a direct answer to my question.

Thus far I have learned the following from your answers to me:

1.  If I ask you the Calvinist if salvation (which is an act of God, not of man) is "by grace THROUGH faith," you the Calvinist will emphatically answer -- YES, ABSOLUTELY!

2.  If I ask you the Calvinist if justification (which is an act of God, not of man) is "by grace THROUGH faith," you the Calvinist will emphatically answer -- YES, ABSOLUTELY!

3.  If I ask you the Calvinist if REGENERATION (which is an act of God, not of man) is "by grace THROUGH faith," you the Calvinist will answer -- . . . . . . . Well, actually you yourself the Calvinist will avoid answering the question.

Now, the question itself only possesses two possible answers, as follows:

1.  Either, REGENERATION is indeed by grace THROUGH faith.

2.  Or, REGENERATION is by grace, but NOT through faith.

So then, in the Calvinistic system of belief unto which you hold, which is it -- Regeneration is indeed THROUGH faith, or regeneration is NOT through faith.

 

[Alimantado]

 

3 minutes ago, Orval said:

Hello my friend,

I really did not see a need to interpret what I said or asked as they are very straight forward questions.  Once again I have discussed many things with Calvinists over the last few years, and you are following the mold that has been cast before you which is do not answer instead ask questions and redirect. 

Answer the questions I asked please.  They are simple and straight forward.  Can you be saved without election?

Think you've got me confused with D-28, Orval. At any rate, you haven't asked me any questions and I'm not a Calvinist.

Edited April 4, 2017 by Alimantado
Formatting

[Orval]

13 minutes ago, Alimantado said:

 

Think you've got me confused with D-28, Orval. At any rate, you haven't asked me any questions and I'm not a Calvinist.

Touche'  Alimantado, I was not suggesting I got you but that you got me.  :)

Edited April 4, 2017 by Orval

[heartstrings]

1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Haha! I wish it were that! 

I'll be completely honest...my guitar playing was a source of pride in my life. Even when I played at church, I wanted to hear how "good" I was. I gave it up. It might not be that way now, but I've completely lost interest. :)

I understand that decision completely. Although I don't play that great, I realized something one day: God made my fingers and the neurons in my brain and all the physical processes that make music possible. So even the finest virtuoso on the planet owes it all to our Creator with no right to feel any pride at all. But we're all prone to it.

[No Nicolaitans]

1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

D-28, based on our past interaction, would I (or would I not) be correct in my understanding; in that, you believe that while God doesn't control all of mankind's actions, God does control who is saved and lost? 

 

1 hour ago, D-28 Player said:

Who saves, if not God?

Of course, but does God control, choose, and decide whom will be saved, and does God control, choose, and decide who will not be saved?

In an earlier post, you said...

1 hour ago, D-28 Player said:

I'm open to answering questions but I don't believe it's reasonable or honest to expect me to defend beliefs you ascribe to Calvinists as opposed to beliefs Calvinists actually hold and which Calvinism actually teaches,  

If you want to talk about what Calvinism actually teaches fine. But if you're just going to throw out a bunch of straw men and talking points then I'm just going to ignore that. 

I asked a sincere question in order to better understand your position. You said you were open to answering questions (with a caveat) and you would talk about what Calvinism actually teaches (with a caveat). Rather than answering the question and taking the opportunity to...

1. Affirm whether I was correct in my understanding, and...
2. Taking the opportunity to talk about what Calvinism actually teaches regarding my question

...sadly, you gave an answer that did neither.