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17 hours ago, D-28 Player said:

The Calvinist would say that although God must regenerate a person before they can exercise faith that it's still their faith. 

So then, Brother "D-28 Player,"

While you could technically contend that within the Calvinistic system of belief justification and salvation are indeed THROUGH faith, would you acknowledge that in the Calvinistic system of belief REGENERATION is NOT through faith (because it come before faith according to the Calvinistic system)?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
punctuation

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What a fascinating thread I should have read it earlier.  One of the things I have struggled with and spoke with my pastor about has been revealed by many in this thread. My question in general is this, how can those of the reformed position write excellent articles and books on bible truth and yet miss the mark so badly on salvation? Those of you who have posted on this forum have voiced the same question in a statement.  Calvinism and Reformed doctrine is like “rat poison” meaning how can they have valid insights into the truths of the Word of God and yet be so far off on salvation. 

Initially I was taken aback by what seemed to be aggressive and unkind answers by board members.  Until I recognized that within the responses of the various board members I found the seed thought for the answer I have been searching for.  Namely this, Satan does not care how much truth you possess if you your view of salvation is wrong. 

If one believes correctly that salvation is by grace through faith, that belief is of no value if that faith is placed in a system instead of Christ.  Do I place my faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary or do I place my faith in a system that seemingly says, I am special because I was chosen? 

A system does not save, Christ saves.  A system does not take away the reproach of sin, a system does not open the portals of heaven, a system does not die for the sinner, a system does not seal until the day of redemption.  My fear, is that the reformed have placed their faith in a system that lifts up Christ, exalts Christ, lifts up the word of God and speaks highly of the word of God but has missed the personal Christ. 

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52 minutes ago, Orval said:

What a fascinating thread I should have read it earlier.  One of the things I have struggled with and spoke with my pastor about has been revealed by many in this thread. My question in general is this, how can those of the reformed position write excellent articles and books on bible truth and yet miss the mark so badly on salvation? Those of you who have posted on this forum have voiced the same question in a statement.  Calvinism and Reformed doctrine is like “rat poison” meaning how can they have valid insights into the truths of the Word of God and yet be so far off on salvation. 

Initially I was taken aback by what seemed to be aggressive and unkind answers by board members.  Until I recognized that within the responses of the various board members I found the seed thought for the answer I have been searching for.  Namely this, Satan does not care how much truth you possess if you your view of salvation is wrong. 

If one believes correctly that salvation is by grace through faith, that belief is of no value if that faith is placed in a system instead of Christ.  Do I place my faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary or do I place my faith in a system that seemingly says, I am special because I was chosen? 

A system does not save, Christ saves.  A system does not take away the reproach of sin, a system does not open the portals of heaven, a system does not die for the sinner, a system does not seal until the day of redemption.  My fear, is that the reformed have placed their faith in a system that lifts up Christ, exalts Christ, lifts up the word of God and speaks highly of the word of God but has missed the personal Christ. 

If you really believe this is what Calvinists believe, then somebody has mislead you. 

No Calvinist would tell you to place your faith in some "system", but to repent and place your faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross.

 

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16 hours ago, D-28 Player said:

The Calvinist would say that although God must regenerate a person before they can exercise faith that it's still their faith. 

I play a BR5-49

It's not their  faith if grace is "irresistable".

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48 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

If you really believe this is what Calvinists believe, then somebody has mislead you. 

No Calvinist would tell you to place your faith in some "system", but to repent and place your faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross.

 

Yet those "truths" from the Calvinist, Reformed Doctrine, Doctrines of Grace, etc. are based on the system of Calvinism, Reformed Doctrine, Doctrine of Grace, etc.

I was a finger player (when I played guitar). Of course I started off using a pick, but gave that up after turning to a classical style of music. 

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1 minute ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Yet those "truths" from the Calvinist, Reformed Doctrine, Doctrines of Grace, etc. are based on the system of Calvinism, Reformed Doctrine, Doctrine of Grace, etc.

I was a finger player (when I played guitar). Of course I started off using a pick, but gave that up after turning to a classical style of music. 

Did ya break/lose yer fingers?

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17 hours ago, D-28 Player said:

The Calvinist would say that although God must regenerate a person before they can exercise faith that it's still their faith. 

15 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, Brother "D-28 Player,"

While you could technically contend that within the Calvinistic system of belief justification and salvation are indeed THROUGH faith, would you acknowledge that in the Calvinistic system of belief REGENERATION is NOT through faith (because it come before faith according to the Calvinistic system)?

Brother "D-28 Player,"

Would you please answer my above question from yesterday?

 

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15 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Did ya break/lose yer fingers?

Haha! I wish it were that! 

I'll be completely honest...my guitar playing was a source of pride in my life. Even when I played at church, I wanted to hear how "good" was. I gave it up. It might not be that way now, but I've completely lost interest. :)

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31 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Yet those "truths" from the Calvinist, Reformed Doctrine, Doctrines of Grace, etc. are based on the system of Calvinism, Reformed Doctrine, Doctrine of Grace, etc

In your opinion But these things would not be familiar to Calvinists 

Edited by D-28 Player

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16 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, Brother "D-28 Player,"

While you could technically contend that within the Calvinistic system of belief justification and salvation are indeed THROUGH faith, would you acknowledge that in the Calvinistic system of belief REGENERATION is NOT through faith (because it come before faith according to the Calvinistic system)?

First of all, there's no "technically" about it Calvinists believe explicitly, not "technically", that salvation is by faith. 

Second, regeneration is an act of God, not an act of man. 

 

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36 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

The Bible says it's their faith and they believe it's their faith 

So then why would any rational person buy into calvin's heresy? It cannot be both irresistible and personal accountability at the same time. 

Look at it this way friend, if God will not force His saints to feed on His Word daily and lose our earthly ambitions completely to Him as saved people do you rationally think He forces anyone lost to believe to begin with? Why? So He can watch His own hand-picked "chosen" disobey His commands? Sadly this whole Calvinist concept is egregious error. Free will is all there is in God's Word, it is on every page of His Word: the choices of men and women and the consequences from their choices. In a few rare instances God has used the choices men have made to harden their own hearts to His Glory by increasing that hardness but any reasonable person would realize that they were beyond His Grace already from all Bible indications. He does know their hearts without manipulating them initially.

Calvin must have been a democrat. The eternal destiny of every person is God's fault and has nothing to do with their choices. God says that "all are without excuse". Calvinism denies God and claims that most are WITH excuse.

 

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1 minute ago, wretched said:

So then why would any rational person buy into calvin's heresy? It cannot be both irresistible and personal accountability at the same time. 

Look at it this way friend, if God will not force His saints to feed on His Word daily and lose our earthly ambitions completely to Him as saved people do you rationally think He forces anyone lost to believe to begin with? Why? So He can watch His own hand-picked "chosen" disobey His commands? Sadly this whole Calvinist concept is egregious error. Free will is all there is in God's Word, it is on every page of His Word: the choices of men and women and the consequences from their choices. In a few rare instances God has used the choices men have made to harden their own hearts to His Glory by increasing that hardness but any reasonable person would realize that they were beyond His Grace already from all Bible indications. He does know their hearts without manipulating them initially.

Calvin must have been a democrat. The eternal destiny of every person is God's fault and has nothing to do with their choices. God says that "all are without excuse". Calvinism denies God and claims that most are WITH excuse.

 

Well that's a very creative interpretation of Reformed theology

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1 hour ago, D-28 Player said:

If you really believe this is what Calvinists believe, then somebody has mislead you. 

No Calvinist would tell you to place your faith in some "system", but to repent and place your faith in Christ and His finished work on the cross.

 

Hello my friend,

First of all, I did not say the Calvinist believes this I said the Calvinist is placing his faith in a system.  Your words “you have been misled” is typical of a Calvinist response, most involved in Calvinism simply cannot respond to any challenge without attacking the integrity of the intellect of the one they are responding to.  “You don’t understand”, “you don’t grasp what you are talking about” “you have been misled” “you are ignorant of what Calvinism teaches” etc. 

So, let us examine, what Calvinist’s place their faith in, shall we?  Do you believe you are elect in eternity past?    I believe you will say yes to that question if not you are correct I have been misled by every Calvinist I have ever spoken with.

My second question is this, when did Jesus die for your sins and mine?  Once again, I believe you will say at Calvary.

Which question is more important to salvation?  That you are elect or that Jesus died for your sins?  You can be saved without election but you cannot be saved without Christ. 

When you place election as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with being elected by God.  If you remove election, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without election (the reformed system) why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven. 

On the other hand, I do not believe in election my faith is placed in the finished work of Christ, I do not need election, to verify I am saved. All I need to do is look to the finished work on the cross of Calvary.  If you need election then what is your faith in?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

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21 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

First of all, there's no "technically" about it Calvinists believe explicitly, not "technically", that salvation is by faith. 

Second, regeneration is an act of God, not an act of man. 

Brother "D-28 Player,"

Certainly, regeneration is an act of God, not an act of man. Furthermore, justification is an act of God, not an act of man. Finally, salvation is an act of God, not an act of man.

Yet you are willing to claim (yea, even to claim emphatically) that within the Calvinistic system both justification and salvation (which are acts of God, not acts of man) are still THROUGH an individual's faith.  My question then remains -- Will you also acknowledge that within the Calvinistic system REGENERATION (which is just as much an act of God, not of man, as are justification and salvation) is NOT through an individual's faith?

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29 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

First of all, there's no "technically" about it Calvinists believe explicitly, not "technically", that salvation is by faith. 

Second, regeneration is an act of God, not an act of man. 

 

Yes, absolutely right: regeneration is an act of God, not of man. The word regenerate comes from the same root word as we get "generator" and "gender". Like as in "generating" electricity or "gendering" a new animal or person. When a person gets saved God makes them a "new creature", "old things are passed away,. behold all things are become new". That's what "regenerate" means. But It does not mean that God "pre-enables" one to receive the Gospel. Wrong definition. God is definitely ready to "regenerate" a person but only when they exercise faith and repentance in Jesus Christ of their own volition. That is not a deficiency in God's "sovereignty" either, it is how God designed, declared and decreed that it is to be so. 

Titus 3

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Edited by heartstrings

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5 minutes ago, Orval said:

Hello my friend,

First of all, I did not say the Calvinist believes this I said the Calvinist is placing his faith in a system.  Your words “you have been misled” is typical of a Calvinist response, most involved in Calvinism simply cannot respond to any challenge without attacking the integrity of the intellect of the one they are responding to.  “You don’t understand”, “you don’t grasp what you are talking about” “you have been misled” “you are ignorant of what Calvinism teaches” etc. 

So, let us examine, what Calvinist’s place their faith in, shall we?  Do you believe you are elect in eternity past?    I believe you will say yes to that question if not you are correct I have been misled by every Calvinist I have ever spoken with.

My second question is this, when did Jesus die for your sins and mine?  Once again, I believe you will say at Calvary.

Which question is more important to salvation?  That you are elect or that Jesus died for your sins?  You can be saved without election but you cannot be saved without Christ. 

When you place election as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with being elected by God.  If you remove election, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without election (the reformed system) why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven. 

On the other hand, I do not believe in election my faith is placed in the finished work of Christ, I do not need election, to verify I am saved. All I need to do is look to the finished work on the cross of Calvary.  If you need election then what is your faith in?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

Very well put!

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3 minutes ago, Orval said:

Hello my friend,

First of all, I did not say the Calvinist believes this I said the Calvinist is placing his faith in a system.  Your words “you have been misled” is typical of a Calvinist response, most involved in Calvinism simply cannot respond to any challenge without attacking the integrity of the intellect of the one they are responding to.  “You don’t understand”, “you don’t grasp what you are talking about” “you have been misled” “you are ignorant of what Calvinism teaches” etc. 

So, let us examine, what Calvinist’s place their faith in, shall we?  Do you believe you are elect in eternity past?    I believe you will say yes to that question if not you are correct I have been misled by every Calvinist I have ever spoken with.

My second question is this, when did Jesus die for your sins and mine?  Once again, I believe you will say at Calvary.

Which question is more important to salvation?  That you are elect or that Jesus died for your sins?  You can be saved without election but you cannot be saved without Christ. 

When you place election as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with being elected by God.  If you remove election, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without election (the reformed system) why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven. 

On the other hand, I do not believe in election my faith is placed in the finished work of Christ, I do not need election, to verify I am saved. All I need to do is look to the finished work on the cross of Calvary.  If you need election then what is your faith in?

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

The fact remains that if you walked into a room full of Calvinists and claimed that Calvinists believe these things you would be laughed out of the room 

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5 minutes ago, D-28 Player said:

The fact remains that if you walked into a room full of Calvinists and claimed that Calvinists believe these things you would be laughed out of the room 

My friend,

Please answer my question.

Edited by Orval

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25 minutes ago, Orval said:

My friend,

Please answer my question.

I'm open to answering questions but I don't believe it's reasonable or honest to expect me to defend beliefs you ascribe to Calvinists as opposed to beliefs Calvinists actually hold and which Calvinism actually teaches,  

If you want to talk about what Calvinism actually teaches fine. But if you're just going to throw out a bunch of straw men and talking points then I'm just going to ignore that. 

 

Edited by D-28 Player

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14 minutes ago, Orval said:

When you place election as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with being elected by God.  If you remove election, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without election (the reformed system) why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven.

Orval, I've interpreted your argument here as being that if a person believes there is something necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, then it follows that the person can only be placing their faith in that thing or things but not in the finished work of Christ itself. Is that your argument? If so then it makes me wonder about my own faith in Jesus Christ, since I also believe there are things necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, for example God's love for the world and his desire for all to be saved. On the same basis, could someone say that I'm not putting my faith in the finished work of Christ?

"When you place God's desire for all to be saved as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with God's desire for all to be saved.  If you remove God's desire for all to be saved, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without God's desire for all to be saved why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven."

 

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2 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

D-28, based on our past interaction, would I (or would I not) be correct in my understanding; in that, you believe that while God doesn't control all of mankind's actions, God does control who is saved and lost? 

Who saves, if not God?

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1 minute ago, Alimantado said:

Orval, I've interpreted your argument here as being that if a person believes there is something necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, then it follows that the person can only be placing their faith in that thing or things but not in the finished work of Christ itself. Is that your argument? If so then it makes me wonder about my own faith in Jesus Christ, since I also believe there are things necessarily prior to the finished work of Christ, for example God's love for the world and his desire for all to be saved. On the same basis, could someone say that I'm not putting my faith in the finished work of Christ?

"When you place God's desire for all to be saved as a prerequisite for salvation you are placing your faith in a system that begins with God's desire for all to be saved.  If you remove God's desire for all to be saved, then there is no purpose for the death of Christ for without God's desire for all to be saved why would Christ need to die for no one could go to heaven."

 

Hello my friend,

I really did not see a need to interpret what I said or asked as they are very straight forward questions.  Once again I have discussed many things with Calvinists over the last few years, and you are following the mold that has been cast before you which is do not answer instead ask questions and redirect. 

Answer the questions I asked please.  They are simple and straight forward.  Can you be saved without election?

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